Parenting Mistakes - Unconditional Love and Fear

SYK Episode 128: “Parenting Mistakes - Unconditional Love and Fear” – Dr. Jaynee Poulson (Part 3 of 3)

Jaynee [00:00:04] But it's just finding those things that are going to push you. You know, I would present on things all over the country at one time in my life that was part of my career. And I got so comfortable in it that I would just, like, show up, you know, make me out and just walk out. But that's when I was like, I'm not good at this anymore. Like, this isn't what I want to be. I liked it when it made me nervous, when I was afraid, when I was growing and like. And so I changed a lot of my stuff. And I present on different things because I'm trying to like it to be a process of learning and growing. And it was starting to just be this canned thing. Like, I had done it so much that I don't want to be that way about anything. 

Brian [00:00:44] Welcome to the grand finale of my three-part conversation with Dr. Janie Paulson. If you missed either of the first two episodes, I will include links to them in the show notes. I'll also include a link to the TED Talk she gave at BYU. Today, we wrap up our conversation by talking about parenting mistakes. Danny also talks about the importance of challenging ourselves and pushing ourselves out of our comfort zone to ensure growth. Make sure you stay for the end because I've got a few questions that I'd really like your feedback on. Until then, enjoy the conversation. Why can't we just assume that they are doing what's best for them and that they had all the information that we're not going to have and that they did the right thing as they saw it at the time, dealing with their traumas and their needs and everything else that they just did. Why can't we just be there to support them? And I think that's the direction society is going a little bit. Yeah, there's still a lot of maturity that needs to go on and accepting that we don't understand all things, but that's okay because they're making their best thing. And what if it's a mistake? Well, then it's their mistake and they'll make the best decision after that mistake. 

Jaynee [00:01:48] And that's hard. It's hard for I think I've gotten there in different ways. But I know as a parent, I, I was that person like I, I joke about it and I shouldn't, but I'm like, I kind of like the devils plan. Like, I think that's a better plan. 

Brian [00:02:03] I can't do it. 

Jaynee [00:02:04] To me, it's like I could tie him to the tree of life and, like, force feed them the fruit. 

Brian [00:02:10] And I don't know, I. 

Jaynee [00:02:11] Had that, like. But where did that come from? Was that out of love? No, it was out of fear, out of wanting security, wanting to keep have my children. 

Brian [00:02:20] That was we don't want them to suffer and go through pain and mistakes and security and insecurity has has pain and they have consequences. Yeah. And you make it through all that and you learn from it and it makes you stronger and it makes you into who you are. 

Jaynee [00:02:38] But again, with the contradiction, though, like I'm willing to own it, that I gave them a healthy dose of pain whenever possible. I just being like my authentic self was like that type of mom that would give them concept, you know, actions, me consequences. Like you guys are friends like you this is yeah. But it was more out of like my fear of I had people in my life that loved me unconditionally and thought that I didn't want to lose that. And so I feel like I held on and I, I apologized to them and I especially my oldest son, like, where I just can see where I he was my first and I, he had some problems when he was young and to where he had juvenile rheumatoid arthritis to where he he can always walk until he would get a cortisone shot, which was like a pencil through the knee. Right? Like it was just this. But, you know, I can remember him in elementary school not being able to walk and he's in a lot of pain. And it's and I remember saying, like, do you want a wheelchair? Crutches, like, what do you want to do? First grade? He's like, Why don't you just come to school and carry me at recess? And I was like, What? 

Brian [00:03:42] Like. 

Jaynee [00:03:43] That wasn't even an option? 

Brian [00:03:45] No. A wheelchair or crutches. 

Jaynee [00:03:48] I did, of course, like and and I have pictures of, you know, he's like batting and t, you know, hits the ball and then like I'm picking him up and we're going to the and, you know, setting him on the swing or whatever. And and just him being like, this is a simple like, you could just carry me. And I think that that idea of like carrying him under my heart and carrying him when he, he couldn't walk himself and like, but at some point, he won't ever be able to. You got to put him down like they've got to. And I just apologized because I feel like I, I just didn't want to lose him. And I, I held on too tight a lot of times instead of, you know, being willing to, to let him go and and whatever the consequence. So but that's something I work. Well, I said I was sorry for and I'm not going to keep feeling bad about. Yeah. Like I'm like, if that's your biggest trauma with me. Like, I loved you too much. No, I'm just like, again, I need. I just try to recognize that. I just. I know I held on to type a lot. 

Brian [00:04:49] Yeah. Yeah. 

Jaynee [00:04:50] Like bringing snacks to their sports practices. Not the game, but, like, I was at the practice. Waiting, watching. Like, I just wanted so much to be there that I over was there, right? And I just look back and it's, like, embarrassing. But then I have these other moments that where I have this level of cruelty that my son loves to tell the stories and people are just basketball game. I bring Krispy Kremes, they lose the game. He's getting on the bus and he's like, Oh, and I was like, No losers. Don't get Krispy Kreme. 

Brian [00:05:23] I was like, What are you. I'm giving this to the other. 

Jaynee [00:05:26] Yeah, there is no, like, participation trophies in our world, like, no. And the next day he comes back. It was tournament play, scores like 32 points in the game. And they asked why? And he's like, cause my mom wouldn't give me Krispy Kreme. 

Brian [00:05:41] No, like, I don't have to walk home after my loss. 

Jaynee [00:05:43] Yeah. And it was just this idea of, like, I know I was that mom, and there's tons I mean, he once was disrespectful to a girl that we were giving a ride to in the car. And I pulled the car over, which I didn't. I later find out this is illegal but on the freeway and was like, Get out because you're not going to talk to a woman that way. You're not going to disrespect Mike. And he got out and walked, you know, to the next overpass and the whole and he loves telling these stories. And it's just this. That's who I was. And. Like I may not have spanked, but like I had things like this. Yeah. 

Brian [00:06:16] But, you know, it's such a razor's edge as a parent. There's no way you're going to be perfectly balanced on that, right? Yeah. And your balance for each child is different because you've learned from the previous child, you've changed as a as a person. And so my kids like to compare the oh, you grow up with a completely different set of parents I grew up with, for sure. 

Jaynee [00:06:37] And, you know, I could remember having my first child and like having kids, you know, a spray bottle and then like if his pinkie fell down, I was like, oh. 

Brian [00:06:46] Let me. 

Jaynee [00:06:47] Break that off. Third child, it could fall in an alleyway. And I was. 

Brian [00:06:51] Like, Man. 

Jaynee [00:06:51] It's fine. 5/2 rule, stick it right in is like just there was this difference and growth and but it was out of love but fear. And I'm now I, I'm trying much more to just be like and. 

Brian [00:07:06] Ignorance, right? I mean, yeah, that's the way you saw it done. That's the way that's what all the books said. You know, it's like, yeah. 

Jaynee [00:07:12] I was erring on the side of like, this is what this is what a. 

Brian [00:07:15] Good. 

Jaynee [00:07:16] Mom would do or whatever. And, and instead of what the best thing for him probably was. 

Brian [00:07:21] Yeah. 

Jaynee [00:07:21] I'm working on it. 

Brian [00:07:22] So who gets the best out of that situation? So I've got four kids. You do? I don't know if it's I don't think the oldest kid gets the best situation out of that because we're making way too many mistakes. And I apologize for that. Bremen And, uh, so yeah, I'm trying to figure out who get where is the is there a happy medium? Does it just continually get better or does it get worse? 

Jaynee [00:07:45] Do you know? I think there's a combination too, because we get further along in our careers as well. 

Brian [00:07:52] Yeah. 

Jaynee [00:07:52] And so there's like I feel like my oldest son tells these stories of me being a single mom and, and there being struggle like I, you know. Yeah, those are hard things to consider. And then now it's like he's just, he's like, I was a senior before I got an I felt like I had a flip phone and was happy to have it, you know. And then now the youngest kids got iPhones much younger. Yeah. And it just that idea of like where where we are in our lives and like where culturally things are that it just it the walk uphill in the snow. Yeah. You know that they have their equivalency and that for sure. And I, I see it. I definitely think that that is the case. But I don't know. I have to think. I'll ask them who. 

Brian [00:08:40] I'm asking and ask my listeners. You need to put it in the comments and let us know who gets the best out of that situation. The oldest kid. The youngest kid. Somebody in the middle. What? 

Jaynee [00:08:48] Yeah. Yeah, I'm. I'm going check back on that. 

Brian [00:08:50] You know, whatever. If they do. 

Jaynee [00:08:52] Want to hear that, because they I know that I know what the kids would say. 

Brian [00:08:56] There's was the worst. Every one of them was going to say theirs was the worst. Right. 

Jaynee [00:09:00] Yeah. But they I think they recognize that the youngest get away with more or get more in general and that it's like an easier situation for them than it was for. 

Brian [00:09:10] Yeah, but do they get everybody showing up for all their stuff too? Because the older kids are busy and the parents are split and so. 

Jaynee [00:09:16] That's so true. 

Brian [00:09:18] And you've already been to your school graduations. Do we need to go to really. 

Jaynee [00:09:23] That they get the left. Yeah. 

Brian [00:09:25] You get whoever was available that Thursday night. 

Jaynee [00:09:28] Huh? That's true. Or it was like we brought all the younger kids to the older kids stuff. Right. It was such a. Yeah, that's a good point. I guess back to the expectations culturally. I can remember though, having my older two kids do things saying because you're the oldest and and if you yeah. All the other kids would follow and that expectation being put on them and that I feel like, oh, because my youngest son, he didn't get baptized. It was a choice he got to choose because that's how far along I came were my older, older son. It was like, Oh, you want a car? Someday after you get your. 

Brian [00:10:07] You'll get out. Absolutely. You can get your license. 

Jaynee [00:10:12] So you got your Eagle Scout like it was just this this like tit for tat and for a while. 

Brian [00:10:17] So yeah, because we thought that was the way it was supposed to be done. 

Jaynee [00:10:20] Yeah. And so, and then think about that down to the youngest son was like, nah, I'm going to wait till I meet. If I'm 18, I'll choose like you did. Like I don't want to do this just because everybody else did. And I was like, okay. And that was he got to make that choice because if it really is a choice at eight, he made it and his choice was no thank you. 

Brian [00:10:41] At eight, he. 

Jaynee [00:10:42] Didn't get baptized. He's still not baptized. And it's funny because he's the only one of our kids that I know of that has taken an Uber and gone to church by himself. Without it. We were out of town and he got got an Uber and went to church by himself. And I just thought like, but maybe it goes back to what you said about choice. Like I was forcing the oldest and then the youngest. It's like he gets to choose it and he if he goes or not, it, it's because he chooses to. 

Brian [00:11:08] Yeah, it's not me. 

Jaynee [00:11:11] My oldest son once posted something where someone had said, like, Well, just tell your mom you don't want to go to church. And he's like, okay, let me tell you how this. 

Brian [00:11:19] Conversation is going to go, right? Like you tell your mom, yeah, you wouldn't want to go to church laughing. 

Jaynee [00:11:24] And just I look back on that and I think, but why wasn't it a conversation I was willing to have? Right. And that I think that's the trauma they referred to that he was like, oh, it would be like, give me your keys, give me your you know, I held these things over him and. Sure. And that is heartbreaking because that's not a testimony. 

Brian [00:11:43] Yeah. 

Jaynee [00:11:43] So that's a that's I think where I'm saying like I'm seeing it. So if our kids were young, it would have been different. Right now that it's played out, I'm like this for forcing people. 

Brian [00:11:55] Hasn't. 

Jaynee [00:11:56] Gone well. 

Brian [00:11:57] Well, and it's learning curve too, right? You make a lot of mistakes on the first kid that you don't make on the second, third and fourth. So by the time the fourth comes around. But they also don't get the attention because like, yeah, I've seen you kids in school plays before. It's not that big of a deal, you know, they're saying half a song and that's it then. 

Jaynee [00:12:10] Yeah, well and I and that's my children. Like my, my stepdaughters are straight-A students that, like, are just amazing girls. And I don't know, it's a very different. Yeah and in parenting is different for each like we kind of let each other do our thing and support each other and stuff. But I just don't want to imply that, that that's how they they haven't had the say. My kid, I don't know. I just feel like my kids they're super have always kind of been not I don't want to say rebellious but like. 

Brian [00:12:40] Just yeah they. 

Jaynee [00:12:41] It's just a different like my my 14 year old is just done with school like where he's just like, yeah, they don't take grades until freshman year, so why do I have to worry about this? And I was just it's such a good point. 

Brian [00:12:51] But you're not supposed to know that. 

Jaynee [00:12:53] Yes. I mean, he literally is just like this doesn't count. Yeah, it's messed up a lot of that. 

Brian [00:12:57] The kids figured out a lot of that like that. 

Jaynee [00:13:00] I'll never forget coming in for COVID. And he had recorded the first 5 minutes of himself and then put himself on a loop and was just like playing video games and like ignoring. And I was just like, This is brilliant though. Like, that is brilliant. But that's the kind of stuff they learned, right? Yeah. That they didn't even count grades. The year of COVID. 

Brian [00:13:18] Right? 

Jaynee [00:13:18] It didn't. So to him, he's just like this. None of this counts until ninth grade. So I don't really have to worry about eighth grade. And I'm just like, it's doesn't compute, but it, it's one of those things where I'm trying to not. 

Brian [00:13:31] Be the. 

Jaynee [00:13:32] The, I mean, I used to be PTA president at my kid's school so I could stalk them essentially. Like I was like, that's the best way to having to be involved, to be there and show up to everything and stock them like I recognize it now where I'm just like, I definitely just was so insecure about being a mom and messing it up. 

Brian [00:13:53] And this goes back to my learning with everything matters. It either is all true or it's all black and white. Everything. Grades in seventh grade, no matter. Yes, they do. They all matter. But they don't though, right? The truth. 

Jaynee [00:14:05] Is. Yeah. 

Brian [00:14:06] So I found this little loop thing, which, by the way, we've all have the internet. If one kid finds it out, we all find it out. And the last one to figure it out is the teacher. Because they never even thought to ask. Yeah, of course. The kids are there. No, no. 

Jaynee [00:14:20] Yeah. No. And I. And I think that with him too, that it's it's learning to parent in a different way because each child is so different. And that's been. 

Brian [00:14:30] And that's another surprise. Yeah. You think you have it all figured out and you have a second kid? It's like, Oh, none of that works. How does that, none of that work now. Yeah. 

Jaynee [00:14:39] And he, he doesn't do sports and that was really hard for me at first because I was like, that's the language. I speak like. 

Brian [00:14:45] A Super Bowl, no donut. Yeah. 

Jaynee [00:14:48] I'm a sports really. Like, I don't know. I just felt like about something that I can relate to and I can support and I know how to be that mom. And then it became like, you know, I'm Star Wars mom and like Minecraft and I am trying to, you know, by magic. Well, he doesn't play magic, but like, that was something we were like, Oh, okay, what about magic? There's like, I'm I just have to find ways, you know, I have probably 40 TikTok videos on my phone and none of them posted, but it's because I just make it's the process of making them with him and like doing the challenge or whatever. Like, I don't need to post it. It's I'm trying to be with my son. Who. That's his. What's his end here? Yeah, in the same way that I still have like I wrote plays on these cards and I had like a quarterback sleeve and it had like button, hook, slant, and so I could like and then play catch with my oldest son. Like that was his reality and I tried to be a part of it. And so it's just been a very different child dealing. Parenting is very different when it is that Internet age and COVID and everything. I just I'm like, TikTok challenge. 

Brian [00:15:58] Yeah. 

Jaynee [00:15:58] I'm trying, but I'm just wanting so much to be in his world and it. 

Brian [00:16:02] Kind of reset the we didn't have kids I mean our daughter was it our youngest was up at the U when COVID hit and. I would imagine if you had kids at home, it kind of reset the whole parenting curve. You start all over with the COVID thing. It's nothing matters. Nothing applies anymore. 

Jaynee [00:16:18] Yeah, it was. It's been, though. It was probably like the hardest year of like my marriage, my family stuff. Like just everything just felt like a reset. Like it just came to that, like, you just. And you literally were, like, looking at yourself all day and. Yeah. Which does so many things to you psychologically. And I, I just. I know that I really felt like I look back on that and think the times in my life where I'm feeling insecure and not that I seek out external validation. And I, I was working like three different jobs and like, you know, taking these other contracts and trying to do these big things for work. And it, it was about wanting to, to feel like everything was failing around me. You know, it was just a really hard time. And, and it was a good lesson, again, to to see all that and go, hold on. Like, this isn't where my rewards are. Like, I'm not going to. That's never the answer for me. And so that was that was a good experience. And it happened to be 2020 was the remarkable woman stuff. So it was like at one hand the contradiction of like I felt like things were falling apart and so difficult. And then I am recognized for these things that are, yeah. External that I'm accomplishing. And it was just this like, Oh, but I don't know that I appreciate those experiences. And I do think that, that, that's what helps me kind of rise to the occasion is those hard times and like not letting go of that, recognizing that like this is for my good and how am I going to use it to propel me forward? And for me, every year or so, I pick something that scares me to death that I'm afraid of, that I do not want to do, that I have just enough of that like in society. But the drive of like I want to challenge myself. I want to be better, I want to grow and what are you going to do? And I it's like I know it. They I can think of them. And the funny thing is that I had this woman that was going to I was like, Oh, I needed to redo some stuff like LinkedIn. It's the only thing I'm on. And so I feel like, Oh, I should probably have that looked at. And I had this woman look and she's like, You just have so many things that are all over the place because I just put something up there or whatever. And but I was thinking because but the explanation is, is that I'm constantly trying to challenge and like scare myself, like put myself in Brené Brown in the arena, right? 

Brian [00:18:42] Yeah. Yep. 

Jaynee [00:18:43] That I if I'm not down, if I'm not there, then then that's where I start to like, wait, I'm and I don't know if that's how I want to live. Like I, I want to enjoy and like the reap but you reap and you sow and there's a process of change. And so I'm always trying to looking for that like next wave of change. And it was I wrote for a fashion magazine for like a year because I had written I wanted to be a writer. I'm not a writer. I didn't go to school for that. But like I, I wrote this column, I produced a TV show. I was a producer on a TV show, which is so random. And then, you know, doing a TED Talk, I was scared to death of that, but I was like, I'm I'm going to do it. I want to do a TED talk and I want to do it at BYU. Like I have to do it there. And going into the prison and teaching college feminism. 

Brian [00:19:31] And. 

Jaynee [00:19:31] Doing a devotional like there's these things that like for me are. 

Brian [00:19:35] Yeah, that's awesome. 

Jaynee [00:19:36] We're scary though, right? Like it. 

Brian [00:19:39] Out of your comfort. 

Jaynee [00:19:39] Zone? Out of my comfort zone. But pushing myself to be like, that's what you need. Yeah, I need. And I'm working on a book that I started a long time ago and I, I keep wanting to put out there, but my, I'm like, who would want no, I want to read. 

Brian [00:19:55] Go ahead. 

Jaynee [00:19:56] Because I said, I think that's a thing that I have to deal with is that I just don't care. I can't see someone caring about these stories or whatever, but a girlfriend of mine that's like this incredible. She's like the first blogger to make $1,000,000 on Google. Right? Like, if you look her up, Jenny hot and she did this travel blog she just is amazing and she teaches courses on it. She tours with Tony Robbins like she is the quintessential, like, public. And she was like, Janie, it's not about because I'm like, I don't care. I don't need to. I could just do I journal all the time like I'm good, right? And she was like, It's not about you like that. It's about the woman that has two kids with an eating disorder and is trying to figure out how to you know, you need to write for her. Yeah. You need to to think of that person. And it just when I think about like I feel like I'm doing a disservice to myself if I don't try to reach that 20 or 22 year ago. 

Brian [00:20:53] Me Right. 

Jaynee [00:20:54] And be like, here's, here's if this can make it any better. 

Brian [00:20:58] Yeah, yeah. This is one thing anyone. 

Jaynee [00:21:00] Along the way and connect and support you and and lift and build you in this trial that I promise you can see you can find your way out of it. What? That's who I am. I'm trying to write the book for and. And work on documentary. And, like, I'm trying to do those things because I know. Because I need to have that. But because I feel like I need to share it and. And use it however I can for good. 

Brian [00:21:28] Yeah, but it's also good to have those creative projects and creative outlets. Right. That pushes you to do stuff that's like, well, I could sit here and watch TV all night or. Right. 

Jaynee [00:21:36] Yeah, yeah. I have. I have a lot of projects. Brian and my husband would I there's never short of projects in my life. 

Brian [00:21:44] Preaching to the choir on. 

Jaynee [00:21:45] Yeah. But it's just finding those things that are going to push you, like the safety of, like I've once said that I, you know, I would present on things all over the country at one time in my life that was part of my career. And I got so comfortable in it that I would just, like, show up, you know, make me out and just walk out. But that's when I was like, I'm not good at this anymore. And, like, this isn't what I want to be. I liked it when it made me nervous, when I was afraid, when I was growing and like and so I changed a lot of my stuff and I present on different things because I'm trying to like, I want to grow with that, like it to be a process of learning and growing. And it was starting to just be this canned thing. Like I had done it so much that it, I don't want to be that way about anything on autopilot. That's not that's not often to push myself. 

Brian [00:22:35] Yeah. 

Jaynee [00:22:35] That's when we're getting into that. Like, is it real? Are you still being real? Because I don't know if that's something for me. I really want to try to continue to to grow and see new ways of of doing things for myself. But that scary. I have to learn something. I have to grow as a person. And so I'm working on that. 

Brian [00:22:56] So. So do you know what it's going to be for the next next year, or do you know by you? 

Jaynee [00:23:00] Yeah, usually by year. Like I can look back and see that the different thing that I did. And so right now the book is one. And then I've been working on a documentary because and that's going to take longer. But I was interviewed for a documentary like a month after I got out of treatment for PBS. And they, I didn't, I wasn't in the actual documentary because it ended up being focused on the family and my family wouldn't be a part of it. But what they did is they created an online website with our stories and like the transcripts of everyone they interviewed. So there's this, you know, but there's actual footage from them interviewing me, like straight out of the hospital treatment. Right. And so I've read the transcripts. I've talked to the PBS director, Peggy Case, and I'm trying to say, let me get this footage or take the transcripts and then re-ask me 22 years later, these same questions. Okay. And revisit this. And then I've been interviewing with a couple of different documentary, you know, these specialists that are doing incredible things. And and how would that what would that look like to be something to help women in treatment? Like there I was. And what would it have been like for me to know who I would be 22 years later? 

Brian [00:24:17] Yeah. 

Jaynee [00:24:17] And what that process is and what what did I learn along the way? But but how could this be a helping tool, essentially? And so I, it's. 

Brian [00:24:26] It's. 

Jaynee [00:24:27] I have my journals from childhood, from treatment now. Right. And how can we kind of weave this story together, not about me, but using me as a catalyst for somebody else to go through? Yeah. Yeah. 

Brian [00:24:42] There's the interesting benchmarks, right? The people don't always see the next part of the story. 

Jaynee [00:24:47] Yes. And I once gave a speech like a graduation eighth grade, and I bombed it. Like I look back on it and I'm like, I gave them the worst advice. That was the stupidest, most canned. But essentially what I did is I made it sound as if their goals were like a straight line, like they're going to go out and check the boxes. Yeah. And when I give the speech at the prison, I'm like, it's like the odyssey is going to take you six years to go one mile. Like, whatever you write, like it's every you're going to fight with this. You're going to have the bomb up here. You're going to it's this huge process and journey and and there's such value in the defeat as well as the victory. 

Brian [00:25:27] Usually more in the defeat. 

Jaynee [00:25:28] The less you. 

Brian [00:25:29] Learn more from the defeat. I mean, the worse thing you can do is succeed the first time out because you don't know why. 

Jaynee [00:25:35] And just the that's what I look at, like the not arrogance but entitlement a lot with kids are really successful at things and that's great but the the how they got there or that you know they're regurgitated learners they just process the lots of information get it out on paper don't remember a thing two days later instead of actually integrating learning into their world. And that's I think, you know, don't want to teach someone to fish. I want to revolutionize the fishing industry. If you want to come up with a new, better way of doing something that makes people's lives better. So what does that look like? And I don't have it figured out. It scares me to the core, but it's what makes me believe. It's like the biggest thing that I need to do. 

Brian [00:26:21] What scares you about it? 

Jaynee [00:26:23] So this feeling like I'm going to the exposure, the video mocking me. Like this idea of, like, I don't. I don't care. Like, I feel more embarrassed for them, for the person that, like, I'm like, that's not about me. That's about them. Right. I get that. But this is about me. This is mine. 

Brian [00:26:45] This is your truth. 

Jaynee [00:26:45] My debt? Yes. This is everything that I have been and worked my career. Everything. So it just feels like I'm like the lamb to it. Like I'm just lay not up for the for the world. And and, you know, I'm someone five years off social media. Like, it's not a diet. Like, this is a lifestyle for me that I choose not to to partake in what other people say about me or, you know, put project myself out there. So I feel like I've got some credibility to say that I've I've earned that. I'm not doing that. I'm not feeding the beast that way. Right. But I know I would have to if I put out a book and if I want it to get to the woman that's struggling. 

Brian [00:27:27] They have to find out. They have to find you. 

Jaynee [00:27:28] Exactly. So that contradiction that like is the conflict within me of like for this to be successful, you have to be all in. Give it. Put yourself out there and come back to using the social is using the media as a tool. 

Brian [00:27:45] Right. 

Jaynee [00:27:46] But it also is a weapon against you. Yeah. And balancing the value of those things. How do you do it? How do you get to a place where you're like, I'm going to put this out to the world? 

Brian [00:27:55] And, you know, it's pretty safe for me because I'm not telling my story. You are. Right. So I'm that's kind of a chicken way for me to sit here, like. Right. I just sit here and ask you questions. And if you ask me questions, I'm like, well, I'd rather not talk about. 

Jaynee [00:28:08] Oh, okay. 

Brian [00:28:10] So, I mean, honestly, if I'm being honest, it's kind of a whole the way I avoided if I were sitting over there, I don't know if I'd have the courage that everybody that sits in that chair has. I'd like to think that I do, and I'm trying to get a little bit more comfortable with it. And I know not to say I don't share a little bit about myself, but I'm not laying myself bare for everyone else and answering whatever question comes my way. I'm pretty quick to deflect that and pretty easy to say, well, let's turn it back on to you again. 

Jaynee [00:28:39] So you sell a product that you don't use? 

Brian [00:28:42] No, that's not true. I would say that's not true because because the product is having people share their stories and find their voices and share their voices. And I do listen to them. 

Jaynee [00:28:54] No, that's the thing. 

Brian [00:28:55] So I learn from all of them. I have learned so much more from people that have been on the show. As a matter of fact, I had this recent post that I put out there that was actually this. The transcripts of this show has become my new scriptures. Okay. And so and I shared the book of Meg O her story. And it was it's a transcript. Hold on a sec. 

Jaynee [00:29:16] Yeah, I would love that. Larry, check that out. So considering I'm literally like in that transcript. How can I use this to help people? Oh, wow. This is incredible. 

Brian [00:29:28] So that's this is the first part of the book of Meg. And this is this is the end of the book of Jackson. And and so I literally. Oh, cool. 

Jaynee [00:29:37] This is incredible. Wow. The transcript. 

Brian [00:29:41] Oh. 

Jaynee [00:29:43] So that makes more sense. That it is. It is. You're you're a catalyst. Like you're becoming like to get this that makes it okay. 

Brian [00:29:52] I putting out my scripture my putting out my book. Well, I'm working on that, too. That's this math back here. 

Jaynee [00:29:57] Okay. So that is working on working on it. But, but that's the fear and the yeah, it's the process of working on it. 

Brian [00:30:06] And me doing this has cost me connections and relationships that I used to hold dear, but I still hold. Hold dear. But they're not there anymore. Mm hmm. So there's a cost, too, for me, even having a voice or sharing other people's voices. And it's in order to be authentic and to be my true self. I feel like most of my life I never had an opinion, but I shared much. Mm hmm. Just because when you have a voice, people hear you, and you could be wrong and they disagree with it. They didn't like confrontation. They don't like people disagree with me. And it was important to be liked. Yeah. And now it's just like I have an opinion. Some people don't like it, and that's going to have to be their problem. 

Jaynee [00:30:48] So do you feel like you've found your tribe? Like the people that are for you and with you and understand all of that. 

Brian [00:30:54] Like yes, yes and no. I mean, I've had a lot of support for this show, but it's hard being a guy because they don't talk about emotions. They want to talk about sports scores and they want to go golfing. It's very. Rare to find. So my avatar for this show, my. My core audience member is female. Mm hmm. And I can talk with them, and they can share stories, and we get along great. And a lot of my friends right now are all women. Mm hmm. I don't have many friends that are men. I have a few. I have a interview coming up in January. That is who is trans. And he's a trans coach to help people through that transition. And he has had a post that says one of the things that I didn't realize about being a man was nobody will talk with you. Wow. On things that matter. And I've had a friend of mine say the same thing about his experience. He said, I don't have conversations that mean anything with people anymore. It's all surface level. It's all sports. And I don't have anyone that I can talk to. 

Jaynee [00:32:02] That's so in my husband. I keep thinking that his family is going to ask him about it and try to talk to him. And none of them have. And we're and we're like waiting and, you know. But I assume it's because they don't it's you know, he'll tell them when they, you know, whatever. But it just it reminds me of when I lost my mom, like, you know, people brought stuff, you know, cookies and and left. And they I know that they just didn't know what to say. So they said nothing or just said the typical things. Right. But I needed I needed the conversation like I would have, you know, it just it just would have been so much more real to have to be able to access the pain sooner. And instead, it was just like, move on and and stop being weird. Jeannie. 

Brian [00:32:47] Yeah. 

Jaynee [00:32:47] Like, it just people didn't. Yeah. So if that's how men feel all the time, like, it's not acceptable to. To access those emotions and feelings like that. That I'm glad that you're doing something to help with that, because it's clearly needed. And it helps me think of the stuff with my husband that I think a lot of it is just me listening to him. 

Brian [00:33:08] Yeah. Yeah. And that's huge. But to have another another man to talk with, it's like, I can't I can count on those conversations on like one hand. 

Jaynee [00:33:20] And I mean, I've seen like the mask. We like different documentaries or things that talk about this, you know, the toxic masculinity, all of it. Do you think that it's worse within this culture or is it just a male female? 

Brian [00:33:33] Like a I don't know if it's necessary if that part is necessarily worse within this culture. But I have what bothers me the most is the people that I thought I had real personal relationships with. Mm hmm. Haven't even reached out. Wow. And they live two blocks away. Three blocks away. I served in the Bishopric with them. I coached with them for hockey or lacrosse or for decade. Mm hmm. Or longer. 

Jaynee [00:34:00] That makes me sad. 

Brian [00:34:01] And so I look at the relationship we had because we were in the same building at the same time on the sun. And I'm thinking, so if the Ward had been split, we would have never had a relationship. We went to, like, ask them out to lunches all the time, which I still do. Mm hmm. But conversations like this are the conversation that got this started. Jackson actually started with conversations like this over lunch. And I'm like, people need to hear this conversation. Wow. But it's hard. It's hard because I want to I want to have meaningful personal relationships. 

Jaynee [00:34:33] One of, like, the connection and to feel the like. 

Brian [00:34:37] And, you know, I think a lot of guys have connection because they golf. Mm hmm. Okay, so you're with an activity. You're doing it for four and a half hours. That that's some kind of connection. But that's is it meaningful? Is it are they your friends? If your parent passed away, would they be there asking you how you feel? No, no, no and no. 

Jaynee [00:34:56] So that was one of the hardest things. Brain was after my mom passed that the women in the church like I'm thinking like the service that I do and the I don't know, I just thought and because I trust in the whole they're going to be there. Right. But I had just moved to the where we are now. And I mean, it was maybe I'd been there two years and they just didn't know how to show up for me and didn't. So they didn't say anything at all. And then it got to be that like avoiding because my pain was palpable and it was like, you don't want to open that up, right? 

Brian [00:35:32] So it's best just to let that fester, let them deal with that on their own. 

Jaynee [00:35:38] Exactly. And I just I look back and I could remember the cookies. My sister in law, they brought over cookies. And then the Relief Society President came and had, like a teacup with a plant. Or I can remember her handing me something and leaving. And I remember thinking like, that's like, this is this is it like this? Like, it was just so hard for me to wrap my mind around and thinking, like, but my visiting teacher at the time, you know, my ministering person, they came over because I was assigned. To them. And the irony is that I have these cards that she had sent me that were like, I love you. Like, God let you know all this stuff. She was not my ministering teacher anymore. Board split. And to this day, we've never spoken again. And I'm like, Wait, it went from. How is that like. Like, it just was so shocking to me, but. But it was like she was fulfilling, checking the boxes and fulfilling her assignment. And I was that. 

Brian [00:36:33] And I think she was doing that to such a degree. I don't think she was being disingenuous and I don't think they're being disingenuous, but I think that was the impetus for it. And I have found some people that will reach out to me on occasion, and I feel like the relationships that I do have are more meaningful. Mm hmm. But I also felt that way for decades living here, too. 

Jaynee [00:36:56] And that's a good point that you thought that. Yeah. To recognize now the difference. Yeah. 

Brian [00:37:01] That and so I dealt myself. Right. Yeah. How much of that is, is really real? Mm hmm. 

Jaynee [00:37:07] I there was a woman in in our ward that had a miscarriage, and and my husband and I had done IVF and had a miscarriage. And I just I did not know her whatsoever. And I she had a toddler just had a month. And I showed up at her door and was just like, let me just explain something. And I gave her the rundown and was like, I brought over these toys. Can I just play with your toddler and you take a nap like, here's who I am, I'm not leaving. Like, I'm here and I'm going to make this work. And like, can I clean something? Can I? But for me, it was like such a reckoning of, like, how would I have wanted to be treated and like, what would I hope for? And that that was one of those like spiritual experiences for me where I felt like I, I want to be who I say I am within the church values, culture, I, I am saying service matters to me. But is it just easy service? Like, is it just what's comfortable? 

Brian [00:38:04] Yeah. With people that I know. 

Jaynee [00:38:05] Yeah. Just family members like. And I gave a lesson once where I was like, it says, love your neighbor. Not if they are your literal neighbor only or yeah, if they believe what you do. There's a pretty hard stop with all of all of those the commandments about the greatest commandment. 

Brian [00:38:23] Right, right. 

Jaynee [00:38:24] And love God love your neighbor as yourself. Like love yourself is in there too. Like I think that that's you cannot as yourself like that is implied to love yourself as well and be loving to others and as you would to yourself. Then we got to know how to love ourselves, which is. 

Brian [00:38:42] That. 

Jaynee [00:38:42] Comes all the way full circle, right? Like that's hard. That's a hard thing to do. But if you can love yourself and love someone else and be able to put yourself in their position, like all of those empathy and things come with like a sense of who you are and the strength to recognize someone else's pain because you're willing to go there. Because that's that is the commandment to love God and love your neighbor as yourself. And I just that's what would it look like if we just did that? 

Brian [00:39:12] So you just hit the nail on the head. My entire deconstruction started with that question. 

Jaynee [00:39:17] Really? Tell me about that, please. 

Brian [00:39:20] So you've got Love God, which I've never quite understood, right? Does he need us to love him? Does is us helping those he would help the way of showing how we love him is that is a so that can be taken a lot of different ways. And I don't want to belittle that. I just never really felt like I understood that one. Does that mean I have to be at church on time 5 minutes early and make sure I don't walk in late to Sacrament? Does that mean it can go a lot of weird different ways with that one? Love your neighbor. That's that's a given. And it's not a it's not a it's not hard to understand. And the Mormon Church isn't the only religion that has that is one of their basic tenets. It's basically in every religion ever. Right. And I'm all on board with that. That is me. My my value, my love language is love is love with connection. It's yeah, it's all about that. And then you have the Ten Commandments, then you have the temple, recommend interviews, questions, and you have the Stake manual and the Ward manual and the Young Women's Lead. And four times a year, the young women have to learn how many times they can get their ears pierced. That's a lot to handle. And so when I was in the Bishopric, I'm thinking, have we nailed that one? The love your neighbor part, have we got that figured out that we should be worried so much on? What's that one down way down there. And, and I even when I was in the Bishopric, I was saying, I think every calling we give, every talk topic we assign for sacrament meeting every lesson we teach should be love your neighbor through paying a full tithe. Love your neighbor through service of your neighbor through temple attendance. Love your love your neighbor, love your neighbor. Let's work on that one. And honestly, I don't see the love your neighbor through, only getting one piercing in your ear. I don't see that one. So let's just kind of let that one go. If you can't take it back to this one, let's. And I started to see. A lot of the things that the brethren who I used to respect and love and admire and listen to every word and some of the things we're saying, we're not very loving your neighbor. It was well, not not those neighbors or not completely love or. And that kind of started to trigger on me because the LGBTQ issue was a big one for me, because I met certain people and other people in in the neighborhood that I knew were really struggling with that. And their lives were a living hell because they weren't feeling that love. And I just felt like if God has a problem with that person, then I've got a problem with God because that person is just the most loving, caring, wonderful person I've ever met. Yeah. And I didn't believe that to be the case, that that God had a specific vendetta against whoever because they might be queer. Mm hmm. But it sure seemed like the church did, and it just really started to snowball for me, and it just started to pick up a lot of things, and I'm like, I'm. I'm going to be there for all of those people that need it, because love is my language. I don't care about the rest of it. And my biggest problem is that I write a lot about this in my book. I put my it's a little bit autobiographical, but I just put myself in the situation where it's like, I feel bad that when someone might have reached out to help on an issue, my response might have been, Well, are you reading your scriptures? And that just killed me to think that I might be in that situation, that I'm like, I'm giving that message to that person when that's not what they needed. They just needed to know that I'm there for them. I love them. I see them. What can I do to help? Yeah. And I didn't want to feel like there were all these other. Yes buts in the way. I'm like, no. Well, let's just forget about all that. 

Jaynee [00:42:57] Was so much of like what my husband has been talking about, like the love, you know, how how far away from that are we as a culture and as a church and wanting to get back to that? And so I really that resonates with me. And also the I the idea of the the rule, you know, the rules around the word of wisdom are that, you know that. But yet there are people that are destroying I was destroying my body and had a temple recommend. I was you know, how is that like but someone can, you know, dream love. 

Brian [00:43:28] Your neighbor unless they have a coffee. 

Jaynee [00:43:30] Yeah. And that's all those things are just. 

Brian [00:43:33] And that had never been said to be fair. No one has ever said that. Right. But you get that feeling and the people that are having a cup of coffee or that might be queer. Mm hmm. They are definitely feeling, though. 

Jaynee [00:43:43] Yes. 

Brian [00:43:44] And that they don't feel love. That's not what they're feeling. 

Jaynee [00:43:47] No, no, no, no. 

Brian [00:43:48] They're feeling judged and less than. And yeah. 

Jaynee [00:43:51] And that's a hard that I think that that's the that's where when I went I went to the prison and volunteered. I would go twice a week and and I would be with that was where I had this huge like come to Jesus reckoning about who I like. I said, who am I, who I really want to be and who I say I am? And I was, you know, some of the women were in there that that like you might know cases like, I mean, they're going to be there forever. 

Brian [00:44:18] Yeah. Yeah. 

Jaynee [00:44:19] And I'm sitting across from them and I. Oh, but there was this moment in time where I feel like I did really well, like my personality, you know, where I wasn't. I mean, I would go in there, like, in scrubs, you know, hair in a ponytail, no makeup. You can't even wear a wire bra like everything is like, you know, you go in and I just was trying I was in a lot of pain myself and I felt like that was the the most comfortable place for me at the time, until there was a woman that shared a story that her son had come to visit her. And he said that he sees his sister in his dreams and the sister the mom had had murdered and was why she was in prison. So I'm processing this in this group where I'm sitting across from a woman that had murdered her child. And her other child is is telling her that he see, I just and I remember struggling in the moment. And later I wrote in my journal that it was it was as if like there was a cup of grace that that was being passed and that I was looking at her going, This is not for you. This is for us or me, right? And my sins, but not yours, that I could feel it in myself, that I was judging her like I was going to hold on to that and go, No. 

Brian [00:45:40] Yeah. 

Jaynee [00:45:40] And it was just this huge moment for me of like like who who am I? Like, what do I really believe? And who do I want to be? Because is it is it for me to judge? 

Brian [00:45:50] Yeah. 

Jaynee [00:45:50] If I believe in forgiveness and all the things I'm saying, then I. 

Brian [00:45:54] Got to pass. 

Jaynee [00:45:55] The car. 

Brian [00:45:55] And is it a limited quantity if you give some to her, does that mean you can't have any impact? 

Jaynee [00:46:00] And that was it. And I'm not saying it happened immediately or like, oh, and then I just realized, nope, it, I it was rough. Like, I could. I, I think, too, like having, you know, struggles in my childhood with, you know, my mom and the just thinking that like this person that, you know and what the effect of that I had all these like in my head but my heart was like, then I don't get it either. Like, if you can't pass it, then you can take from it. 

Brian [00:46:27] Yeah. 

Jaynee [00:46:28] And I need that every day, every hour, every minute. It's like. That's so that I. I hear you and I. I feel that so much that I. I feel like in doing the things that scare me and being in those positions, that those lessons have been, like, changed my life and made me a better person that I like grew so much from that because it wasn't in the I did my, my ministry check the box. Right. 

Brian [00:46:55] Right. 

Jaynee [00:46:55] It was that it was moments like that where I'm standing sitting across from a murderer and. 

Brian [00:47:01] And. 

Jaynee [00:47:02] Having a reckoning with myself of, like, do I really cry? What does that mean to be whole and one with Christ and and to love my neighbor. Like, what is it I want for her? I want her to have a healing as much as I need healing. And and what would that look like? What would I do and say? And how would I treat her differently? So that didn't happen all at once. And I still work on those things all the time. But I know that for me those are I find the answers in that like loving more so. 

Brian [00:47:31] What what led to you being volunteering in the prison in the first place. 

Jaynee [00:47:36] So that's it's a I love the story my I was with my mom when she passed and I thought that since I had been a counselor in the past that I was going to handle all of it beautifully because of course, I know the stages of grief. Like I have to know it was the exact opposite. Like it it hit. It was just the most lonely pain that I had ever encountered up to that point of just this, because I no one talked to me about it. I couldn't. I remember coming home from the event and like my husband being like, I'm going to my, you know, it was our youngest daughter's birthday and he went to her party at school. And I remember just sitting there by myself and and just being like and I understand, like, everyone's life kept going on, but that was just it. Mine felt like it stopped. 

Brian [00:48:25] That house has never been quieter. 

Jaynee [00:48:27] Exactly. And my father in law, Bryce, had lost both his parents. And he is the only one at that time that, like, came and just sat with me and just sat there, like, I don't even remember a conversation. I just remember him sitting with me. And, you know, when people ask about my father in law living with us for the I'm like, he can be, I will care for him. His in that moment sealed. It just meant so much to just have someone in the room and not to feel so alone in that in that pain. But I had gone and spoke on to the women that were graduating from the program in recovery like it's. Yeah. And they had asked me to look at the books for it and I had done that. And then I think it was the third time I was there. They said, you know, there's going to be this program. It's it's being run right now at the men called, you know, real transitions. And we want to do it with the women, but we know it'll have to change, like it'll have to be rewritten for the women. And I was like, I got to go to California. My mom has been battling cancer for years and I'm going to be there until she passes. And and so I really was just like, I'm not this person. Like, I come and speak and it's like I do my thing and I go, but I, I just that wasn't so I go and I'm with my mom and, you know, had this experience, had lots of experiences with that. But I came back and I remember she didn't want a funeral. She didn't which funerals are for the people left. Not because that even made it harder to mourn her, because it's like there wasn't this process of people. Yeah. So instead it was like I was going through her stuff and I remember I was sending like gifts to her friends of her things, and I was trying to, like, acknowledge her in a way that was respectful. And and I ended up calling them and saying, I sent you a package with some things of my mom's. Thank you for, you know, and there was probably seven women. And she had a list of people I was supposed to to let know as well that she had passed. But these women were like her tribe. 

Brian [00:50:29] Yeah. 

Jaynee [00:50:30] And these women did not know very much at all about me, not about my amazingly my beautiful husband, who my mom had, like a hilarious crush on, which was funny that she would she'd be doing her chemo and she'd be like, Do you have any pictures of Jared from Iron Man? And I'd be like, Oh, fine, here you go. 

Brian [00:50:49] Like, you know. 

Jaynee [00:50:50] Just it was a joke of like how, you know, that she liked him. And so they didn't know about that. About my Iron Man has been, you know, climbed base camp. Ever know they didn't know about me treating girls and, like, you know, wrote a guide for her? No. The one thing that every single one of those women said. Was your mom said that you volunteered at the prison. Your mom was so proud of you that. 

Brian [00:51:12] You. 

Jaynee [00:51:13] That you went into the prison like every one of her friends knew about that. And it just hit me, like, at the time, like, well, that's what she that was her Super Bowl. She was proud of me. She she saw that as like a a something that she talked about and wanted to share. And I thought, okay. And it felt like pushing me to do what they had asked me to do. If this was such a big deal to my mom, like, maybe I need to evaluate this. So I called and I said I would do it. I ended up going for a year, twice a week, and it was the hardest, most like grueling, but the best thing. It is what healed. Like, I went to 30 different forms of treat because, you know, I'm in my head. I was like, okay, I'll do cranial zager all try. I'm happy and I'll do like. I went to Louisiana and saw Voodoo Priestess. I was trying so hard to get this out of me, like to not feel what I was feeling, but I was trying to go around it. I was trying not to feel it. And instead what happened in the prison is that I had to go through it. Yeah, I was in the middle of it at twice a week in a room smaller than this with no windows and just two guards at the door. And it was like, Who are you for real? Like, that's all you have in here. They don't care. 

Brian [00:52:34] About. There's no audience. 

Jaynee [00:52:36] Exactly. Just the the human to human connection. And and that was like taught me so much about myself and and love and service and pain. 

Brian [00:52:48] That that you've. 

Jaynee [00:52:49] Got to go through it. Like, that's the growth, that's humanity. That's what connects us all. Like, that is what I finally got. And it was it suddenly became this beautiful thing. And it still took me time to get over because I, like I said, I was dealing with, like, issues I didn't bring up with her and and. 

Brian [00:53:08] The. 

Jaynee [00:53:08] Person I wanted her to be and all those things, like, why wasn't I lovable? And I went through all of that, but I went through it and that that was the key and the hardest moments with my eating disorder, like of relapse and just fear and having to like recognizing where I made decisions in my head. I talked about that in my in my TEDx talk that I was going to go back to Taco Tuesday with my husband because I felt guilty and ashamed, like, how could I not be there? And but in my head it was I'm going to go get tacos and I'm going to eat him and throw him up. Like I had made that decision in my mind that those tacos represented guilt and shame and fear and me not being all the things my mother wanted or my husband needs at this moment, me being like all these things went through. And it was like, if I could just go have those tacos with him and prove myself, but then I'm what do those tacos really represent? So I just want to get rid of it. I just want to get that out of me. And it's the best way I can describe dealing with bulimia or having an eating disorder. It's like, you know, swallowing pain and anger and hurt, fear, whatever it is, and then trying to get rid of it. And in it, it makes absolutely no sense, but it makes every amount of sense in some way, too. Right. And I thought and I made a decision in that moment where I was like, I'm I'm not going to ever have tacos with my mom again or Taco Tuesday. And and the women in that prison weren't either that night. And they were waiting for me. And it was like, that's where I needed to be. Like I wasn't going to get rid of my pain through taking another themed dinner because I saw it on The Cosby Show. 

Brian [00:54:48] Like, that's not it. 

Jaynee [00:54:49] I need to to go and sit in it and be real. And that's what I did. I did that in that program and I edited and and wrote it for the women. And it's happening still. Like they have a waitlist. It's going for the years now. And I'm the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints. Bought it and produces it now and stuff. And I not not bought it from me. I mean, I signed away my but there's a whole program now and they do that in and out of the prison. And I'm so I just feel so lucky that I got to be a part of it. That and I do believe with all of my heart that that was the message that that for whatever my mother couldn't give me, that she gave me that and no one can tell me different. Like, she she pushed her friends pushed me in. And it was exactly what I needed to to heal was to serve and to and to learn how to love and and to sit with that pain and and accept that within myself, that that was exactly where I needed to be at the time. And that was such a gift from her. I'm really grateful for that. 

Brian [00:55:52] Yeah, that's awesome. Yeah. 

Jaynee [00:55:54] And I and I felt loved. I felt like she in the end, she absolutely showed me, like, such love. She taught me how to to help heal myself and, like, love myself. 

Brian [00:56:05] So it's interesting that story. You both. The hole that the gap that you had. You follow the example of somebody else and you figured out who you were going to be all at the same time. That was all part of that process, right? 

Jaynee [00:56:17] It was actually it was. And I, I had shared once that I was that I go to certain restaurants that I will hire people from in transition. Right. And Market Street Grill is one of them. And I eat there for, you know, breakfast all the time, like for business or whatever. And I was there one day and a woman that was in the transition, because there's the transition program for people that, you know, they could just become becoming a grandmother or they're transitioning from one thing to the other, but they weren't ever getting out. And then there were women that were transitioning from the prison to the outside world, and I was working with them on setting up a plan and resources outside the prison before they left. Instead of, you know, getting $45 in your clothes in a trash bag, like, yeah, yeah. So there was different levels of of women in transition. And this was someone that was in the program and and got out right. And she came up to me and didn't say anything but just said, I really appreciated your you're the my graduation speaker from the program. And and she just said, I just really appreciate what you did. And and and I just, like, teared up and I just remember thinking that, like, that was more than I ever could ask or deserved. 

Brian [00:57:28] Yeah. 

Jaynee [00:57:28] But I think that that's the thing is like the connection and, and like taking our pain. That's what I mean when I say, you know, that we, we have an opportunity to take pain and growth and lessons and, and maybe it can help somebody and just maybe. And that maybe is worth the risk to me of putting myself out there. 

Brian [00:57:47] Yeah. Yeah. 

Jaynee [00:57:47] And in that moment, that was such a teaching moment of like seeing her and there and knowing and unspoken just she just thanked me for being her keynote speaker at her graduation. Good job. And, and was so professional. And I just but inside I just wow. I mean what I don't I don't feel like I have the words to explain because I don't think that I think you do service and do it. 

Brian [00:58:11] And. 

Jaynee [00:58:12] That's it know she tation. Yeah, sure. So it wasn't very to get that was just like I said, more than I ever deserved and, and it just meant so much to actually process that, that these are women that are going to come out and be mothers and and be daughters. And, and, and we're all connected. And it makes a difference for all of us. Right, how you treat them. 

Brian [00:58:32] It's interesting to me that that one comment from that one person at Market Street seems to mean more than your 2020 Exceptional Woman Award, right? I mean, it just touches you on such a personal right. There's no there's no. And I am I hope that there are people that are out there that are not getting these awards, that are seeing that in their day to day basis with their own kids or their own young women's group or whoever they are, that they're getting those and having those experiences because those are the ones that really, really matter. Yeah. Oh. 

Jaynee [00:59:05] And I think too that, you know, they say, you know, you bring that one person or like help someone. If you could just help one person with what you do or say. But you don't really know. 

Brian [00:59:15] No, and you don't. 

Jaynee [00:59:16] You don't. And I just felt like I got to see that come full circle. And it just it it again was like that gift from my mom of like that. And even, you know, the woman that I mentioned that that hurt her, her child like. And I struggled with that. That was healing within myself of forgiveness and forgiving my mom. One of the last things she said to me was, I'm sorry for all the horrible things I did to Eugenie. And like, I don't it's not that I don't know them or can recall them, but it they don't sting and it doesn't have that same. 

Brian [00:59:49] Hurt. 

Jaynee [00:59:49] For me anymore. Like, I love her and I'm grateful for her. And it's exactly that life. It can be any different like it. It's just exactly what I needed so that I could find girls that were lost and and felt unloved and help them. And I'm grateful for it now. Like, it's part of the story that makes me, me. And it's why I could sit at that prison with these women like it was a gift in that way. And that's so hard for people to understand that I would think of it like that. But I, I do. I just think that it, it's all of what makes me who I am and the best and the worst. All those experiences are for my good. 

Brian [01:00:27] Yeah and yeah. If you were to go back and remove that experience from you because you didn't want you to suffer any pain, you would be robbing you of something so much greater than Yeah. 

Jaynee [01:00:36] I used to when I was counseling girls and you know, people would be like, Oh, it's just like, you just know them or you can find them. And I was just thinking inside I would think that, yeah, because I was them, I was that girl and I. I know I knew where to look for them. Yeah. It's how it felt. Right. And I felt like that again in the, in the prison. Like I was able to identify in a way that was just the core, being real with pain like that. We all. That's a human experience that we all have and. How are you going to rise to that occasion to help somebody or hurt somebody because you're in pain? 

Brian [01:01:13] Yeah. 

Jaynee [01:01:13] And that, I think, is something I wish we could recognize more, that we act out and hurt people because we ourselves are hurting and we need to look at that. Yeah, that's unfortunate, but I see that quite often. Hurt people. Hurt people. 

Brian [01:01:28] People. Hurt people. 

Jaynee [01:01:29] Mm hmm. And so I do that like a call to arms for me of, like, we can be hurt and we will be, but we can help people with it. And what does that look like for each of us? Different. 

Brian [01:01:41] Yeah. And have just a little bit more patience and a little bit more love towards them on their worst day, realizing that there's a reason for that. Right. Yeah. And that's hard. Yeah. Because you take it personally. 

Jaynee [01:01:52] Yeah. And that that's I deal with a lot where it's that you want my life. Like, you know, when women say sort of they're comparing their worst day to my best. Right. And going, you know, and I'm like, do you just want my husband and my. 

Brian [01:02:06] Like, my, you know. 

Jaynee [01:02:07] You you don't want my life. Yeah. 

Brian [01:02:10] You know, my history. 

Jaynee [01:02:11] Yeah. That's you don't really want all of what made me me. You just want the good. 

Brian [01:02:16] But there's no other way to get there. 

Jaynee [01:02:17] Exactly. And I guess that's where I'm like, how do we as women, honor how we got there and see that as like something to to be equally as we hide that we ignore that. We neglect it. We medicate it. 

Brian [01:02:30] Yeah. 

Jaynee [01:02:30] And I'm like, no, we we need to see that as the remarkable part. We survived it. My my son did this. Like, you know, Mr. Minor, it's like the the male pageant fundraiser. They do it at a couple of the schools. But he did that. And I have it on video where they asked interview questions. You know, they came on stage and they get asked an interview question and they asked him, like, who's your hero? And Michael Jordan could have been someone he named. 

Brian [01:02:59] Right. 

Jaynee [01:03:00] But he named me. And the reason he gave was because of me for failing forward that my mom, every time she gets knocked down, she gets back up. And and I'll just that was another one of those moments where it just was so clear to me that, like, that's who I am for. That's who I want to be. Right. Like, that's the hero. And I can remember telling my mom about this and her saying he didn't say your brother, like, really? Like, she was so, like, a part like. 

Brian [01:03:28] Thanks, mom. 

Jaynee [01:03:29] That's only her, right? But it didn't matter. Like, that was my Super Bowl moment. Like, that was my moment that my child at his school, like, was sincere in. And the reason it wasn't, it was that's a legit thing that he's watched me fall down so many times, but I rise every time and that that's what I want for women. I want for myself, for my kids, like my community. I mean, I feel like that's the thing that like it's not the end, the knock down part, it's the beginning. Yeah, it's the get back up and start your life part that I'm so interested in and, and want to be a part of. So yeah, my great moment as a mother was my son saying that I was his hero because I get knocked down. 

Brian [01:04:13] But I get back in the ring, right? Yes. Yeah, absolutely. That's an awesome quote. Yeah. 

Jaynee [01:04:20] So thank you, guys. This is so great to watch your questions on there. I good. Really? Yeah, I'm. 

Brian [01:04:25] Good. 

Jaynee [01:04:26] That's it. I feel better than you do. It's like it's so cathartic. Telling your story is empowering. I feel like it's. 

Brian [01:04:34] There's also a little bit of a vulnerability over, I. 

Jaynee [01:04:36] Think. Really? Oh, that's good. You know. 

Brian [01:04:39] You're going to I'm going. 

Jaynee [01:04:40] To look back like, did I say that because I was before anything I said. 

Brian [01:04:43] How much did I say? Too much today? You know, you'll have to let me know. But that's what I've heard, really what I've experienced. But I've also heard that it's so cathartic just to be able to sit and just talk it out, right? Just. Yeah. 

Jaynee [01:04:55] So, and it's so different than being on stage after. I'm excited. I see Lance on Saturday and I'll talk with him about, you know, because he's on stage in front of tens of people and I don't do that any I mean, I do it once in a while for students, but, but not professionally like he does. And I'm interested to see that the contrast between those feelings afterwards from being on stage and like kind of presenting yourself that way and there's some vulnerable moments, right yourself. 

Brian [01:05:21] So that's the that's the LinkedIn bio person that's on stage, right? It's not the person who's backstage that's running around trying to make phone calls because life's falling apart. 

Jaynee [01:05:32] Yeah, no point. Great point. I just I'm. I'm really interested to see how he how he did, how he feels about that, because I do think that for me, it's another one of those opportunities for growth. Like I feel like I, I'm excited too. I have talked before but about specific things and this has just been about me. Yeah. And that that's so different. Like I've done a podcast specifically about eating disorders and treatment and recovery, and I'm a professional doctor that's talking about that. But it didn't even talk about myself and my own recovery. It was all about. You know. Right. And that's so far removed. And I think we do that so often, like I can discuss these things, but. 

Brian [01:06:14] Well, for some reason it's okay to talk about all the professional stuff, but to talk about yourself it's like almost not allowed. Mhm. It's such a rare intimate thing to have a long extended one on one personal conversation that is deeply meaningful. But. 

Jaynee [01:06:30] So do you ever feel like. So for example, what you said about being in the Bishopric and what happened that like not guilt or like concern that because those people it's like calling them out on. Because that's the thing with my book or with different things like or talking about my mom like I really it's it's not that I'm ashamed or I feel bad. It's, it's, I don't want to be disrespectful to other people's mistakes or like that. I'm using my platform to call out a wrongdoing or whatever, you know what I mean? Like, I don't want to do that to anybody and. Sure. You know, and even with saying, like about my brother that we don't have a relationship, like I still do albums of him for his sons and like his sports. You know, I was kind of I'm kind of the record keeper of my family. And I, I still look at his TikTok and, you know, and like, oh, he's doing this like, I love him, but at the distance I need. Yeah, yeah. But it doesn't mean that I don't like to say those things about him or whatever. Like, I, I love him and it's so. But it's just hard to then I feel bad that I'm saying anything negative about people like I. That's hard for me. Yeah. 

Brian [01:07:40] And I don't pretend to understand anybody else's story. Even people that have shared their story that I've heard, it's like I still don't understand everything that goes beyond it. Sure. I think every time you tell A you have an opportunity to tell that story, you get a little closer yourself to understanding it. But I don't even know if you you're right on it yet. I think it's gets closer. You have more realizations and you look back on it and it re you re listen to it and but yeah, just and I think I was very fortunate as far as the Bishop Roulet goes, I always worked with great bishops and had great bishops and they were always great people that are trying to do their best. I think they're in a very difficult situation and I do not like the constraints that they're often put under as great people to apply these certain policies a certain way. When I felt this, my experience, when I was in that situation, I felt like I was being disingenuous to myself to uphold a policy that I later had problems with. And I just felt like I could be more of myself. I feel like I'm a better person, a better Christian, even now than I was then, because I'm not letting some artificial constraint that I don't understand cloud the way that I'm reacting. I feel like I'm more genuine and and more Christ. Like even though I may not be upholding the church's policy on certain things or their viewpoint on certain things. 

Jaynee [01:09:07] Now I that that completely makes sense. 

Brian [01:09:10] And I was honestly, I was in a position where I didn't feel like I could do that. I didn't feel like I could be genuine and do that. That was against the policy and against, you know, and I was like, okay, that bothers me a little bit. Yeah. And in the book that I'm writing, though, the bishop in there has some problems with that and he goes with his gut and it ends up costing him. Yeah. And a few people around him and sometimes it's good and sometimes it's better. And it's not necessarily that they're everybody is, you know, is so obvious, but it's just it's it's a tricky issue. They're tricky issues, you know. Sure. And Christ never thought to judge or shame. I mean, that wasn't the thing. But it sure is baked into a lot of things unintentionally. And I don't know exactly why that is, but you feel it a lot. And I don't necessarily blame the church or the members or the doctrine or the gospel or the policies or anything. It's just it just seems like it brings that out. Yeah. And maybe it's just that the idea of an organized religion that does that, but because it's not specific to any particular religion. Right. Um, it's, yeah, I don't, I don't know exactly. There are a lot of different ways my mind goes with that. Yeah, but. 

Jaynee [01:10:18] It's the, it's the corporation religion of like members and numbers and those things versus the actual like what. Yeah. What Christ taught is different. Right, right. Like that's the, that's the, the problem or the like where things are lining up. 

Brian [01:10:36] Yeah. 

Jaynee [01:10:37] A lot. So, but and we could be done. 

Brian [01:10:41] Anything else you want to say before closure? 

Jaynee [01:10:43] I'm just really grateful. I, I think even just sharing out loud to someone else and talking about the book and the, the podcast and my fear around it is, it is cathartic. I just feel like even more is that on taking the risk and, and putting myself out there good or bad, like what a pain that comes like I. I need to. It's. What I need to do and to live my best life and to choose what's going to help me grow and become better. So I appreciate you giving me an opportunity to to be here and talk to you and to have that kind of reckoning again with myself. But like, yeah, that's that's my next step. 

Brian [01:11:25] Okay. I've got three sets of questions for you that I'd like your feedback on. Feel free to chime in on our Facebook community page link in the show notes or send me an email at Brian with an eye at strangers, you know, podcast dot com question number one I asked partway through this episode Which child do you think benefits from the best parenting or best situation? Oldest, youngest or middle child and why? Second set of questions are about parenting. What lessons have you taken from your parents that you tried to either recreate or avoid with your own kids? How successful have you been? What lessons have you learned from your own parenting that have helped you understand the way you are parented? Finally, I'm very interested to know what topics you would like to see us cover in the show, what perspectives we are missing, who we should interview. Until next week. Keep an open mind, love your neighbor and reach out to say hi to someone you don't know. Thanks for listening to strangers, you know.