Meg G - Revival of Self

SYK Episode 113 - Meg G. Part 1

Meg [00:00:04] I think we forget, like when we rock the boat and it doesn't work, I think we forget how much of a tool it takes. And for me, I get smaller when that happens. This was my whole experience in my upbringing. I define myself as I feel like my parents wanted a cookie cutter version of me and that most of my siblings really fit well into what they expected. And I felt like kind of like a circle or square or whatever. And I always felt like I was a star, but I really felt like I was not fitting into the mold that my parents expected. And that was really uncomfortable. And I would stand my ground and I would be defiant and I would be I would rock the boat, I would be challenging. And they could beat me back enough into that mold just with shame and with all sorts of things where I would be like, maybe I'm actually not good enough. And also getting that message at church. And so I would kind of just shapeshift from like, I've got to get into them all, be this, be this circle, you know, I've just got to I just have to do that. The only way to survive. I use a ton of survival techniques just to get through this time. And then I would be like, I can not do this. I'm suffocating. It'd be like, I'm going to be my whole big self and be a star. 

Brian [00:01:16] It is impossible to summarize any of these amazing conversations into a few simple paragraphs. My meeting with her Meg ran so long that I had to break it into two episodes and I still feel like we were just scratching the surface. Part two will air next week. In the meantime, I could tell you that our topics included butchering chickens, long term illness, sexuality, trauma, dumping feminism and trying to fit in. But that leaves dozens of topics unmentioned. Still doesn't describe our conversation. Meg graciously shares how she came to an understanding of her family system, religion of origin and many other topics that once defined her worldview. Her story of deconstructing 80 different things has helped her learn to hold things loosely. Her knowledge, beliefs, even values, are constantly changing, and she has learned to embrace the unknown, be open to new everything's. And she has given herself permission to rock the boat in her advocacy on many important issues. Meg is wise, insightful, warm, caring, and a truly remarkable woman. I really appreciate getting to know her and have learned a lot from her perspective. I know you will too. Enjoy part one. Thanks for coming out. 

MUSIC

Meg [00:02:17] It's nice to meet you. Good to meet you. 

Brian [00:02:20] So what do you want to talk about today? What's on your mind?

Meg [00:02:24] I have a lot of things on my mind in this way where I'm like, where do I go with this conversation? Your wife, Gaby, and I were just talking about there's like, 80 things we've deconstructed. And so. And I think I told you this, too, is, like, I have so many things that I'm constantly thinking about, and I'm like, is there really one direction? So I want to be fluid. I want to I'm really happy to talk about several different things or just kind of integrate them. But I do have something that is on my mind from a conversation I was just having. Gabby. 

Brian [00:03:00] Do you want to start by giving us just an introduction? Tell us a little bit about who you are and maybe if it fits, because this podcast is a lot about change and deconstruction. If maybe you tell us a little bit about your your pre-med and your current mag and just kind of like just give us a high overview of what that person was like and what's going on now and maybe what caused the change and then lead into that or whatever you want to go with it. I'm just some options. 

Meg [00:03:25] Yeah. Okay. Well, I'll tell you a little bit about myself. Okay. I'm originally from Michigan, grew up in a fairly big family. I'm third of six kids. My parents are still together. And I was raised in a very small town like very white conservative, religious based town in the middle of rural Michigan. And we grew up kind of like kind of picture a small family farm type of situation where we didn't sell anything, but we butchered our own chickens. Okay. So like, that's kind of the level we were at and like learn how to drive a stick shift tractor and, you know, the whole that whole small town life was my upbringing. 

Brian [00:04:10] So I don't want to interrupt that. My I do. How old were you when you had to kill your first chicken? 

Meg [00:04:16] Usually we would just take the chickens out of their pan and bring them to our dad. And maybe one of us would hold the rope. He used the ax, but we did have a friend over one time from our church that, like, was just there. And if you were a friend of the Griffiss and you came over on a Saturday, you're going to be put to work. So she was there in our Carhartt stuff and she just is holding the chicken that's about to be butchered and blood splattered all over her. And it was very traumatic experience that we all still felt. Yeah, very unsettling for her. Pretty normal annual for us. Right. So. Yes. I mean, I can't remember the first time we did that, but we've always you know, we would raise like 70 or 80 chickens a year to butcher and would dorsum in the water, the hot water to get their attention. We had a whole assembly line system and oh, good thing there are lots of kids to do the work. Yeah, yeah. It's also. 

Brian [00:05:19] Good. Sorry to interrupt, but that was just an interesting. 

Meg [00:05:22] Funny. Yeah, it's an interest. It was an interesting way to live. And I was always really grateful for it because it taught me a lot of hard work. And so, like when I wrote my college essays, it was I leaned really heavily into like, I'm a really hard worker. And, and this is actually something I was thinking. This is a very an idea I've kind of deconstructed in some ways, is the idea that hard work was more important than emotions or connection was kind of as I reflected a big part of my upbringing. And like, sure, I like hard work and I think it's important, but it's not my top value anymore. And I think I've shifted my perspective on some of those things and things like, Oh, maybe, maybe we might chat about that a little bit. Okay. There's, there's quite a bit there with I've come from a lot of different systems that I have come out of and that I've changed my views on drastically compared to where I originally started. And that has that's my family system, that's my religion of origin, that's how I see myself in the world and my yeah, my inner worldview and also kind of I don't, I don't really feel like, oh, there's a past Meg in a now mag. Okay, in some ways I do. But there's also for me, I'm a slow burner with a lot of this stuff. And so I, I see myself looking back and being like winter that changed for me and some of the things that are more, a little bit more stark. But there's a lot of things that I'm just like, Oh, I didn't actually realize. I totally believe that now or stopped believing that or, you know, live different about that. And I can see how it all came to be, but it was gradual. 

Brian [00:07:12] It's interesting because like you say, a lot of it, you look back on, it's like, oh, that started when. No, it started before. No. Wow, that's sort of a long time ago. 

Meg [00:07:20] Yeah. 

Brian [00:07:21] I didn't realize it until that time. But you also brought up a point that I've thought about from time to time is there's no such thing as a as a little deconstruction. Once you get into that, you'd deconstruct everything and you almost can't stop. It's almost not there's not a little deconstruction, and I don't think there's a fast deconstruction. I think you can make some quick changes. I'm not going to do that ever again. I'm no longer that person. I don't believe that. But the deconstruction just keeps rolling and rolling and rolling. And I wonder if it ever stops. 

Meg [00:07:55] I hope it doesn't. Okay. I don't want to ever be in the mindset that I've arrived and I'm now fully enlightened. I think that's a mindset that sometimes when you do learn big things, it's easy to fall into. But I don't want to be stagnant like that and I don't want to be that pompous, okay? I don't want to feel like I've arrived. 

Brian [00:08:17] Okay. So you kind of tied deconstruction with being pompous and certain or narrow minded. Was does that define like a previous version of Meg tell? 

Meg [00:08:31] Ask me the question again. Tell me more about what you mean. 

Brian [00:08:33] So before you started that like heavy deconstruction was that Meg a little more certain, a little more pompous, a little more. I kind of know where I'm going. 

Meg [00:08:44] Yes, very, very much so. I really and I think we all grew up like this, but we have this idea that, like, this is what's right or this is all that life is. Like, we just I think most of us, maybe not most of us, but my experience was quite narrow minded, quite certain, quite sure, and also quite sheltered in this way of I didn't, for example, I didn't see other family systems. And so I thought that my family system is how the rest of the world runs. And I realized growing up that that wasn't the case. And eventually I started turning open enough doors and windows that I was like, Oh, there's endless doors and windows, like, really kind of coming to this idea that not only do I not know what I don't know, but it goes beyond that. It's I know, you know, just the smallest tiny amount. And then on top of that, about the same amount are the things I know I don't know. But the whole rest of everything are things that I don't even know, that I don't know, that I don't like. It just kind of the inception of that. And so I, I just, I like to stay more open. So that I don't get stuck in this. I've been like, I am right. I'll always be right. Because that's what I saw in my family of origin. That's what I saw in my religion of origin. There's just a lot of rigid ideas and I don't want to get stuck in that. And I have to like, you know, currently challenge myself like, oh, am I getting stuck in certain ideas that I have now? And I don't really want to be that person, so I try to stay open. Okay. 

Brian [00:10:28] So many good questions. I already started with your introduction yet, but do you think it is possible to deconstruct if you haven't had a little bit of that certainty or that arrogance? Is there anything that if you lived in an area where you did see multiple family systems and that was very familiar and you were taught just to be open minded, would there would deconstruction even be possible or necessary? 

Meg [00:10:53] I can't say no. That feels much too definitive. Yeah. I feel like I would have to think about that. I figure, I mean, maybe there are people who, you know, have were raised fully open minded. I would love to. I would love to meet someone like that. It would be very good to pick their brain. But I'm not sure I'm not convinced that if there there are raised even the you know, the most open minded person. I'm not convinced that they wouldn't just. That's a deconstruction process on its own. And so I wonder. It's a good question. Yeah. 

Brian [00:11:24] I've got some family, some friends. This this particular family I'm thinking of that I feel like their whole family is like that. And their family is not perfect and not without their own concerns and issues, you know. But I feel that their parents have raised them to be very accepting and open minded and as non-judgmental as anybody that I know. And I know that with all of their kids. And I'm just thinking, did we rob them of the opportunity to deconstruct something they were so certain of? 

Meg [00:11:56] That's interesting. Yeah. 

Brian [00:11:58] And then not that that's necessarily a gift, but it kind of is to get out of it and to realize it does help open your mind and your thinking. I think to realize that you've been trapped in a certain line of thinking or belief system that you never even compare it with anything else you never even questioned. You were just so certain. And all of a sudden it's like, Oh, there are other family systems, there are other religious aspects, there's a whole world out there. And I was just I had the blinders on. I was just focused and just moving as far down this road as I could go. 

Meg [00:12:34] Yeah, I think my thought too, that because I see that and I think because I know how much deconstruction has helped me expand my thought and my experience become a much better person. Not to say that I think I was a terrible person, I just think expansion and progress is important. I think because we're all in systems anyway. Even if someone was raised in a really open home, that doesn't mean that they weren't raised, for example, with the patriarchy or something like that, right? So just like things that are subtle, the media that we watch and anything that's like doused in, basically everything is doused in white supremacy. So like and maybe your family, the family that you're referencing is, you know, just always talk to their family about all of those things. And they were always exposed to all of that. But I don't think I would imagine that if they came across something that like challenged those norms or even just like reminds me of this little experiment. But in, in my what it was I call my sociology class like my very first class in college. We had to go and do these little experiential things that challenged social norms. And like, I walked on the opposite side of the sidewalk. Whoa. And, like, people were way weird about it. It was super funny to watch. Or, like, I went to this pond with a bunch of ducks, and I think I like, talked to them like I just behaved outside of the social norm, which I'm a very extroverted person. And so these types of things aren't giving me massive amounts of anxiety or anything. I mostly just think they're hilarious. But it is uncomfortable, it's challenging. And, you know, you just saw people all around campus doing weird stuff and I'm like, you're probably in that class. Or maybe not. Maybe you're just like one of these these people who will do what you want, which is wonderful. And even just stuff like that, like even if they're the most radically open and inclusive family that you referenced, they're still raised with all sorts of sorts of social norms, and those things can be too deconstructed. Do we really need to drive on the right side of the street? Because I've been in a country where I had to learn how to do the opposite. Right. And so that did drive a. 

Brian [00:14:58] Stickler. 

Meg [00:14:58] Now. Thank heavens I'm not actually that good at driving sick. Yeah, I'm not quite. I'm not that proficient at that. 

Brian [00:15:08] But you're right. That's a good point, that they do have their own systems. Even being open and accepting is its own system. Right. So maybe there's something that they learn from that. It was just an interesting thought to me because almost everyone that I know that's deconstructed has been so rigid in their beliefs. Uh huh. And now I'm kind of wondering, I wonder if you can be so open in your beliefs that you have to deconstruct from that. 

Meg [00:15:29] Maybe there is goodness in some level of certainty. Yeah. Yeah, maybe. I don't know. All right. Be interesting to have a conversation with someone more like that. Yeah. 

Brian [00:15:38] I've asked them a couple of times. I'll get him on here eventually, but. All right, so where. Where we. We're feeding. We're killing chickens. 

Meg [00:15:45] Yeah. Yeah. 

Brian [00:15:46] And applying for college. 

Meg [00:15:49] Yeah. So I guess I grew up on, you know, the small family farm with a bunch of siblings. About like a 15 year age range, if I'm thinking of that. Right. And I guess so. I was raised quite Orthodox Mormon, and that was a huge part of my upbringing. I was also very I was a very involved kid and reflecting this is probably has a lot to do with needing to find meaning and purpose outside of my family system and ah, a bit of escapism as well. But I was, I was very involved with choir and theater and the like, student body government and the Green team and the Spirit Club. Like every morning before school I had a meeting and every morning before that school meeting I was going to what's called early morning seminary learning stuff about religious like scriptures and whatnot. And I was just a very busy kid and I was very I mean, teenager, I started becoming very, very mentally sick and that that colors a lot of my adolescent experience. And it's funny because a lot of what I experienced looked like I wasn't always super blindly believing in the faith I was raised in. I really feel like my experience was I had to work for what my testimony and my both my strong devotion to what my family and my religion believed. And I really like attribute a lot of me working my way to a healthier place in my life, with my relationships, with my family, or the distance I've created there to my devotion and my relationship with what I considered to be data at the time. And so that was I don't fully discount the things that I stepped away from because they helped me them in really important ways. Okay. So that was a big part of it is that I worked really hard to believe, you know, everything I was supposed to believe. And I had very turbulent familial relationships and dealt with a lot of mental illness that I had no language or support for. And then luckily I felt like I had an external and I and I had a lot of good people in my life who also gave me some grounding. But one of the most important ones that I, I saw at the time was my Heavenly Father, as I would have called dearly at the time, was what I felt like I could lean on when I didn't feel like my earthly parents, quote unquote, really showed up for me in the way that I think healthy parents would. Okay. And so that helped me basically like escape. And I went to Brigham Young University in Utah, which was a huge move from Michigan, which I just needed. And a lot of that was faith based. I had I had deep faith, and I felt like God was going to help me get through all of this new life phase. And certainly my parents were okay and not not exclusively like there's that's very complicated, good relationships and also just a very complex thing to talk about. 

Brian [00:19:25] But it's also very fairly common, isn't it? I mean, most people go to college, they want to move. Those that want to move away are moving away from something. They're moving toward something. They're exploring something. They're just on the verge of understanding who they are and what the world is about, which is what college is kind of for. For a lot of different things. There's experimenting. There's all kinds of learning, new ideas, being exposed to these different systems that maybe you didn't get 18 years previously at home, whatever your home situation was like or so how was yours? A little different than that. Or was it? It sounds like you were kind of setting it up. That was a little different for you. It was a little, yeah. 

Meg [00:20:04] I think maybe most of this is I think at the time it was very much the same. And I think the way that I see it now is and I think I actually even had a high school teacher who said something like this to me, but who knew a lot about my home life that I was trying to get away from like a deeply dysfunctional family system. And not just like I need my independence, which was definitely a part of it. Getting some more freedom, you know, breaking some of these control patterns which took, you know, years and is still in process, as we all are, I think. But I think that for me and I know a lot of people have this experience, this isn't unique to me, but I, I experienced some pretty severe trauma in my home life. And it was really important to me to be able to depend on God to get out of that. And part of God was at BYU to just go be with people who, you know, in my mind were just fully safe because they were all I mean, this is very generalizing, but they were all, you know, believing, faithful, practicing people of my faith and I could have a safer place to be. And I don't think that's necessarily unique. Like, I know a lot of people have those experiences, but I think it was a really important part of my experience to get as far away as I could. 

Brian [00:21:36] And did you find that it was a safer place? 

Meg [00:21:38] Mm hmm. I did. Mm hmm. And eventually got therapy. And even though I was really resistant to doing that, why I might actually ask you for clinics is because I am starting to get emotional. So we might just stay here. Thank you. I when I was a young girl, I don't I don't remember how old I was. My guess is probably like ten or 11. That might be very inaccurate. I have a very distinct memory of being shamed by one of my parents about like, I'm a bad child, so I should have therapy, which is not how children should be treated or people. And I just that sunk really deep in me when I was really young. And so I talked to my ecclesiastical leader, just I would like go in and talk to him about basically my family drama, which he had no education to do. 

Brian [00:22:32] To get no training. 

Meg [00:22:34] No training. 

Brian [00:22:35] No training. 

Meg [00:22:35] There. But he was know, I mean, he was a really amazing person I was connected with at the time and really like encouraged me. It took me probably like six months of him encouraging me. Like there are free therapists at the school, like go talk to someone and a friendly dad. And really, once I broke that barrier, I realized like, Oh, therapy is not like, you have to be the devil to go to therapy, which is what I believed, basically. 

Brian [00:23:00] So when you said you did go see a therapist, what how old were you when you actually did the first time? 

Meg [00:23:06] I was 18 almost. I might have been 19, actually, at that time. So 19. 

Brian [00:23:11] So when you were talking younger with your ecclesiastical leader about it and and he recommended it, did you go then or did you just think no. 

Meg [00:23:20] So I might have misspoke a little bit. So the ecclesiastical leader that I talked to about it wasn't until I went to college as well. College, perhaps. Okay, who I was the Relief Society President for. So I was in very close contact with him and his wife all the time working on stuff and also just trauma dumping on him. Yeah, when I wasn't okay. 

Brian [00:23:41] But I mean, it's a good thing that you had that outlet, right? Yes. If you'd gone to any other school, who would that person have been for you? 

Meg [00:23:47] Right. It would have been maybe men that I was trying to date. I don't know. Like, yeah, not that I haven't done that plenty in my younger years, but yeah. 

Brian [00:23:58] So I mean, so that that was a good experience even though he doesn't have the training necessary. Well, not necessarily he doesn't. And maybe at BYU, maybe the bishops have a little bit more training in that area, I think than. 

Meg [00:24:10] Do they. 

Brian [00:24:11] Than generally I think of student wards or things like that, that they get specific training for that, but they're in there for four or five years and they bring whatever training they had. And I was, you know, the bishop was a geologist or an engineer or not a therapist. 

Meg [00:24:29] Right? Yeah. So he didn't have the training, but that doesn't mean that good people with good hearts don't care about who they, you know, feel that they are presiding over. And this particular person, my memory of it from that time was that he was very in support of me and of me getting healthy, which I just this is this is part of why deconstruction, I think, is so complicated, because I don't leave it all at the door. I love and I'm so deeply grateful, like indebted to all the different people, you know, who I came across in my life who really were there for me while I had these radically different beliefs than I have now, and outlooks on life who share those outlooks on life, that at this time in my life, I'm like, Well, I think in a lot of ways those beliefs held me back. And sometimes I make a judgment like maybe it's holding them back and maybe it's not. But I just it was so important to me at that time to have people like him in my life and to have this belief in, you know, a heavenly father who would care for me in a healthy way, even if other caregivers wouldn't, and that those things, like I still get so emotional about them because they meant so much to me at the time. And I don't feel like I need to let that go. Sure, even if I am a wildly different person and would never go to a white middle aged man to confess myself, ironically, because. 

Brian [00:26:07] He has the priesthood. 

Meg [00:26:08] Right? Because. Yeah, because there is this given authority. Yeah. Yeah. 

Brian [00:26:14] No, but that's an important point. And I think it talks a lot about the deconstruction process. Tell us. Well, if I'm not getting too sidetracked from a sidetrack, but in your mind, how do you describe what deconstruction is? How have you looked at that? 

Meg [00:26:32] This is an interesting question. I don't know if I can answer super well, I, I don't necessarily have a definition of it. And I sometimes when I look at other people's experience around deconstruction, I, I feel like my experience often has been a lot different or that I don't have, I don't always have the language around like, well, this is what happened and this is what undid this belief and this is what under this belief. Like, I don't have a lot of that super just connect it. Like I don't have all these connections. It's just like, well, and then, you know, a year down the road, I looked back to a year or two prior and I realized like that I felt super passionate about this thing that I used to advocate the opposite for. I'm like, Oh, like, where did that come from? And then I have to sit down and see, well, I was connected to these people and I was reading these resources and I was, you know, going through these different programs, whatever. And then I guess that that makes sense why I would have gotten there. But I don't have a sometimes it's been intentional, but I don't necessarily feel like I have been like, I'm going to deconstruct this because I see that it's not okay. And so then I'm being very intentional about it. I think the exception to that would probably be like the patriarchy and sexism. I'm pretty proactively and very intentionally doing things to deconstruct that and challenge those systems. I don't know if I have a great definition. 

Brian [00:28:05] What about if you take a step back and just give some broad terms and say this is kind of the process and sometimes it gets done out of order, but sometimes these are the phases that you go through when you look at something like that. Can you give me or maybe, maybe not. 

Meg [00:28:19] Yeah, I think maybe I'll turn that back on you because I don't know if I have the that vocabulary. I really have like a graph in my mind of how it goes. 

Brian [00:28:30] Yeah. And this is something that I'm very interested in because I'm trying to understand my own process as well. I think part of it ends up with you have to ask yourself the question, what if? 

Meg [00:28:40] Mm hmm. 

Brian [00:28:41] And if you already know the answer, then you're not looking for the answer. Mm hmm. And so it kind of it kind of tips on that. And I think some people I think there's so there's the what if and you start asking questions. And in a lot of cases, you alluded to the fact that people take things that they put on the shelf that they didn't understand, they couldn't explain. They didn't make sense doubt. Your doubts put it on a shelf. They start pulling some of those off and they start really digging into it and researching it and talking with people about it. And I think that's part of it. I think there's another part that is more emotional, and my initial journey for the most of my initial journey was based off of emotions, off of the idea that that just doesn't feel right to me or something else does feel right to me, and it conflicts with what I've been told. And it just it gets just as uneasy feeling. And he does have to dig down and say, well, why? And the more you think about it and early on, more you pray about it and study the scriptures about it or whatever, the more unease there is. And I think a lot of times the church says, well, it's time to put it back on a shelf. And that's the habit. Doubts your doubts, not your faith. Right. And I think you start that tipping point of deconstruct. And when you're like, I can't put this back on a shelf. This is core to what I believe in. And it's different. And it's not accepted and it's not allowed. But I don't feel that way anymore. And I think at some point in the journey, people go through a combination of both of those emotions and those feelings and also the knowledge and the intellect and the questioning. And I'm just not sure. And I, I think they have a different weight for everybody, but for me, it was definitely the emotional aspect of what I was hearing the priesthood brethren talking about. I just resonated with me, just it just made me sick to my stomach. And I could not apply that in my in my, in my belief system anymore. 

Meg [00:30:48] Yeah. My experience might be pretty similar to like how you describe the emotional side of it. We could talk about this more maybe later, but I didn't have a shelf breaking moment. I had done away with the shelf analogy for quite some time before I really decided to distance myself from the LDS faith. 

Brian [00:31:09] Yeah, I was the same way. 

Meg [00:31:10] And so I had a different analogy for that, which we can talk about, but love it. Yeah. So my experience was a lot more experiential and emotional and I didn't really I don't feel like I really asked the question. I don't have any real like strong memories of asking the question. Like, what if, what if this, what if that? But I do remember being like, well, I grew up around a lot of really wonderful people who don't know what Mormonism is and who like I really respect who I think are good people. And so I guess and who are happy like, look, it was emotional, unsettling, like, you know, maybe this is the only thing that gives you happiness. Like it was like an emotion settling of, like, seeing that there could be other ways rather than real logical, like, well, what if this? What if that? I'll go look into this. Oh, I hope I didn't that. And so I wonder. 

Brian [00:32:05] So what was the conflict there? What did you believe happiness was? 

Meg [00:32:09] That's a hard question to answer because, I mean, the joke I almost need was basically like happiness was what you felt after you died, which is kind of it's kind of telling because I dealt with I mean, I've dealt with mental health since I was a young teenager and I didn't know happiness. I didn't for a very long time. And so happiness was this made up thing that looked like it existed in my life sometimes. And I guess maybe if I were to actually think about who I was at that time, what I thought happiness was like how you're supposed to feel when God talks to you or like what you might feel if you go to the temple regularly or when you are praying and you feel peace. I think those things were happiness, but I think even while I was still at least moderately believing, I started really developing. So. So my degree is in, in essence, relationships. I studied human development in the school of family life, and I started believing things like that, that you're a typical Mormon young kid wouldn't necessarily like think like I was so anti why is everyone getting married so fast? That is ridiculous. I don't actually think it's ridiculous. I just think it's high risk. And I was really strong about that, which was fairly controversial in the university I was attending, but so I felt like I pushed back on stuff like that or had some beliefs that didn't necessarily jive with like at least the culture. And but one of the things that I don't know when I really started believing this a lot more deeply, but I think it has a lot to do with kind of my revelation into what is a healthy relationship, because I didn't see that modeled super well growing up realizing that I think, you know, when we feel most connected to people, usually that's when we're the happiest. And I think I started believing that within the context of my faith. And I think a lot of people actually who are currently, like, religious do believe that. I think a lot of the beliefs that we hold are the same, just package different and a lot of what a lot of the packaging is where there's a harm caused. And but I think I think a lot of people believe like I believe that life is kind of about like connection and love and relationships and, you know, being compassionate and having like healthy boundaries, but also like sacrificing for the greater good. And I believe those kind of things. And I think in a lot of senses, that is there's a lot of threads of the. Those beliefs that I'm stating in most religions or non religions, and I don't know if I would have been able to describe it like that, describe happiness being those things at the time. But I guess that's what I think now. My thoughts are a little jumbled on that question. I think I might do well to spend more time with that. 

Brian [00:35:18] Well, and still changing too, right? 

Meg [00:35:20] Yeah. Always. 

Brian [00:35:21] Yeah. Which is another wonderful thing about life. Right? That's you don't have to have all the answers. 

Meg [00:35:26] Which is what we do. It's a relief. Yeah, I. It's uncomfortable. It was. I'm not as uncomfortable with it anymore. But originally, I was very uncomfortable to realize how much I don't actually know to sit in uncertainties, to really bring out, like, a visceral reaction for me. And now I kind of, like, revel in it. Yeah. 

Brian [00:35:47] You said relief. Yeah, almost the exact opposite of that. 

Meg [00:35:50] Yeah. It's kind of nice to be like, you know what? If it doesn't matter that I don't have the answer, what if that's okay? What if the things that are more important than being sure and I think they are. 

Brian [00:36:02] And you just said three in a row, but earlier you said several what ifs. You started by saying I never really what if. 

Meg [00:36:08] Yeah, that's interesting. Perhaps I did that did that without like journaling it so that I couldn't look back and know that it did it. But it's very likely that I did that. Yeah. 

Brian [00:36:19] This is a topic we may get into later, but you started talking about relationships and you were studying at BYU. At what point did you say, Well, what if relationship was more? Then the church describes what a relationship is with a man and a woman. 

Meg [00:36:34] Yeah. 

Brian [00:36:34] At what point did that come into your. 

Meg [00:36:36] It's a really good question. I have a hard time really pinpointing, like I was saying before, like really pinpointing like when was it when they when I had that thought. But I can tell you kind of as like a broad, like a little bit more broad because it's such a slow burn on this particular topic. Like so I should say where I am now is very queer, affirming, probably queer myself. My, I don't exactly know how to define myself or I think it's super important to have a label. But currently my favorite way to talk about it to people is that I'm a baby. Baby gay. I just currently that's really fun and I'm not super attached to the outcome of how that all ends up going about and how it ends up looking, which is, I mean, the non-attachment and holding things loosely is such a wonderful addition to my life that I definitely didn't have it all before. A lot, a little bit of Buddhism that has really resonated with me. So I it there's really nowhere that it starts other than like because I can think about some of my most impactful things and I have a best friend who is gay and he and I were both at BYU. I knew him from the beginning of my experience really, and he wasn't out to me for years. But eventually we started talking about it and I when I was like a lot more nuanced in the church and I think that was probably the most one of the most influential pieces of it because it, it encouraged me like, like I wanted to figure it out because I was grappling, like, how does this really work with my belief system? What the church is telling me, the current politics is before, you know, marriage was legalized for everyone and I was really just grappling and I was studying families at a religious university. And so while we did look at research for non hetero couples which you know pat on the back for be white for doing that at BYU like we should be looking at all the research and I hope they're doing even better now. The narrative that I'm hearing in my classes was very traditional and. 

Brian [00:38:48] Then Sundays. 

Meg [00:38:49] And on Sundays and you know, it just was like a long time where a bunch of things bothered me, but it took a long, lot longer to really stand up and realize, no, I don't. I'm not okay with that. And then a lot longer to be like I mean, not necessarily a lot longer. I remember probably in high school or early college being like, yeah, like I think sometimes women are really attractive or like non-binary people. And so I'm too, I would always joke I'm 2%. I got a little bit gay everywhere. Isn't everybody a little bit gay? Which people tell me now. Like maybe that's a pretty good sign. You are not strangers just like and that that percentage has grown over time. But yeah, I don't know exactly where it started, but I do have pretty distinct memories dating quite a ways back of, you know, seeing like a marriage between two women on the TV and my mom coming in and immediately turning it off. And I didn't know how to talk about that at the time. I didn't probably even really process that it had happened or like go and tell somebody that I trust, you know, I it just it. Was a part of the experience of this was shut down. I had a dear friend that I've known since I was five, probably who I grew up with and to dance with. And he came out as gay in high school and he, like, he and I got along. I mean, I love being around him and our families were really connected and I still told him some really harmful things. And then you like you have these memories. And so that that was a super influential relationship of how I formed my thoughts around a non hetero any real like any situations that were queer and that was totally formative for me and you, you know, these memories might come up and then I'm like, Oh my gosh, I have apology rounds to do. Like I was conditioned in a certain way, and we all are. But I'm responsible now and I can, even if they have like kind of moved on, I think I think it can be really powerful not just to like hope that this could help them feel like, oh, like I actually am accepted and fully loved. And I hope he felt that when we had a conversation much later in life. But also it's been good for me to realize, yeah, that conditioning really hurt people. Yeah. 

Brian [00:41:13] And for how many years. Right. And probably when he needed it the most. Right. I'm feeling that I don't want to put pressure on you because I've done that as well. And I look back and I say, They just needed someone to talk to. They just needed someone to sit with them, not say, have you prayed about it? 

Meg [00:41:28] Right. 

Brian [00:41:29] I mean, really, that's the best you can do. And at the time, unfortunately, it was it was all I could do. It was all I knew to do. 

Meg [00:41:36] Right. And it's like not it's not our fault that that was how we were programed. And it's important now to take accountability. Yeah. And those two things are hard to grapple with because I think you can always I was raised in the system with my family and my church that that taught me to just feel ashamed when I realized all of the terrible things that I've done. But the reality is, I've been thinking about this. I'm just as good and just as bad as everyone else. And everyone else is just as good and just as bad as me is. I don't think I don't mean that as an excuse. I don't mean that at all. And and frankly, like, I definitely believe the more intersectionality somebody has, like, I should probably acknowledge how much privilege I have as a white lady that has an education and all of these different things. I think where there's more intersection of oppression and marginalization, I think those people tend to have figured it out a lot sooner or didn't even need to figure it out because it was their lived experience. 

Brian [00:42:38] They were forced into it. 

Meg [00:42:39] Right. And so and a lot of it is apology rounds to people who are already on the margins. And that's why it's important. Yeah, it doesn't really matter. I don't think as much how I feel about it, but it is important to take accountability and just do better and champion people louder because, you know, you didn't before. You know, I'm pretty passionate about that. I'm pretty loud about my advocacy. I try to be. 

Brian [00:43:05] How are you loud about it? 

Meg [00:43:07] I'm a lot about it in the sense of when I see something, I say something knowing that it can cause social repercussion. So that's like in my real waking life. And I didn't used to be this way because I didn't used to see all the things that I see now. But I will call people on their racism, in their sexism, in their homophobia and transphobia and all these things, because I think is really important and it costs me socially. Yeah. But that to me, while it can be painful, is mostly irrelevant. Like it's just work that's important to do. And then I also try to be on social media because I have a lot of peers who grew up the same way that I did or in similar with similar, more conservative ideas. And so but I know some of them are probably grappling with some of the things that I have been. So I try to be vocal there as well. I try to give time and when I can money to different organizations, I try to research things, I try to read up and actually like not talk out of my ass, you know. Yeah. Really discuss on this podcast. Absolutely. 

Brian [00:44:19] They call it natural language. 

Meg [00:44:21] Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Brian [00:44:25] Where do you want to go next. Do even finish your story. It would come up to current mag better now. 

Meg [00:44:30] We really did. I know. I was thinking feel. 

Brian [00:44:32] Free to go back or forward or change the channel, whatever you are. 

Meg [00:44:35] My bio is basically we're still going through it, basically. Okay. Yeah. So okay, let's maybe go back there and catch people up to speed. So, well, I wanted to ask you, what's your audience like today? Does your audience know, like all of the like all this type of terms? I don't know how specific I can be. 

Brian [00:44:58] I would say most of them, but not all. 

Meg [00:45:00] Okay. 

Brian [00:45:01] So if there's something important that we're going to talk about a little bit, you could probably define it a little bit more, I think. Yeah. I mean, I, I have one of my listeners that I know said everything I knew about Mormonism. I learned from South Park, and I didn't believe any of it. And I'm like, Unfortunately, yeah, they kind of nailed it. 

Meg [00:45:19] Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So there are a lot of like, little terms. I said Relief Society President and I was thinking, I don't even know if people know what that means. But if you want me to define any of that, or if you want to interrupt me and define it, just feel free. 

Brian [00:45:35] Yeah. Like I said, if it's a topic we talk about for a little bit maybe, but university president, it was the leadership position, right? They figure it out. 

Meg [00:45:41] Yeah. 

Brian [00:45:41] I pick it up. They have the Internet, too. 

Meg [00:45:43] That's true. Yeah. The Internet will tell you some wild things. 

Brian [00:45:48] I just watch South Park. 

Meg [00:45:50] Yeah. Okay. So Mack from Michigan, a conservative white town, upbringing, small family farm, depressed as a teenager, abusive, dysfunctional family system, uh, BYU undergrad in the School of Family Life with an emphasis in human development and a minor in civic engagement leadership. Wow. I didn't know. So yeah. So that's. 

Brian [00:46:15] Really interesting. 

Meg [00:46:17] I really liked it. It was a really tough minor to get through, but it gave me a lot of cool insight and it kind of got my foot in the door to work on some family public policy that has actually changed some state laws in Utah. So yeah, I think those relations, it was really just I was given a huge I got by the people that I was like doing my capstone with. Like I wasn't really me, but everyone has, yeah, it really put me in some cool positions to do some cool things, but so did that in my undergrad and I some other really formative things that happened as I was younger in college finally went to therapy, which is huge, has changed my life, finally found my degree. It took me a while to figure out what I wanted to study and actually to. Now, this is an interesting fact. I, I was a very musical kid and a very involved kid. I liked thing, I likes nutrition stuff. And I was like, maybe I'll go into that. And I didn't really know what I wanted to be. And so BYU was this school that had everything, especially people like me and who believe similar as me and had the same sense of Disney. And so I really wanted that environment to explore who I wanted to be because I didn't know. Yeah, which is pretty typical, but it took me probably like a year and a half to declare major and I didn't even know that my current career existed. But I do relationship education, I do family life education, and I was doing that for a few years as a guest speaker for a program in Utah. And now I have a private practice that I do relationship education, and I've gotten a little bit more into some food crisis work as well. And I enjoy doing that. And I do some groups and events and things. But in my I mean, I guess that's a huge jump from, you know, we're still kind of young in college, but young college experience was finding out what I wanted to do or thinking maybe music and maybe nutrition. And I really like teaching people. So I would I probably had on my MySpace bio maybe that's too that's too early maybe was Facebook. But was that my three passions? I would say this to everybody was people the gospel and teaching. And so I wanted to be a seminary and Institute teacher. Okay. And that like I took the class for it. I think I took the class while I was starting my struggle. I say starting at such a. 

Brian [00:48:56] You had a struggle long before that. 

Meg [00:48:57] But yeah, yes, yes. But more of my where I would say my faith crisis started was probably around that time that I was in this seminary teaching class. Yeah, I'm grappling with a lot of a lot of different things like that. But so I did, I did was trying to get my undergrad done. I went on and I my plan was I had like this huge faith and devotion and I was kind of one of those people I very extroverted personality and you know, I do teaching, I do guest speaking like I'm fairly charismatic. I get along with most people. So, you know, when the Bishopric would do their rounds and meet everybody who just moved into the ward, they would come to my door and I would be so friendly that they would be like, You need a calling in the ward council. Like almost every ward. Like I'm just kind of one of those persons I believe is a personality thing. They might claim that they had a spirit. And so I probably interpreted some of that quite narcissistic early and thought that I was maybe more spiritual than other people. I don't, actually. I think I was just warm and friendly and he seemed to want to be around. And so, yes, I was always like really involved with church things. I was always doing tons of stuff with friends. I was getting so little sleep and, you know, skipping by with my homework and my reading and my, you know, and I loved what I learned. So it was always really fascinating. But did I do all my reading? I did not. So but I, I my plan was always to go on an LDS mission and always meaning probably by the time I was like 16, 17, when I felt like I had gained a testimony in that I knew the church was true to that work. 

Brian [00:50:42] Just that phrase, right? 

Meg [00:50:43] Yeah. 

Brian [00:50:44] I mean, it, it triggers me now and I'm like, with how many millions of times did you say it and never even consider that that was. 

Meg [00:50:52] Yeah, well, it's interesting you say that because I did consider at a certain point, I remember somebody in one of my words gave a talk that was all about how she wasn't sure she knew, but she believed. And there's like some scripture passages that talk about talk about the difference between those and that that is good. Like that is just as good and it's a gift. And so, yeah, we get to know where they get to believe in that. And I think that's probably that's my strongest memory on when I was like, Oh yeah. Like I actually really respect when people are honest and they say they believe that even if they don't have an A and a surety, right? And so I still fully accepted not knowing even though probably not for myself. I don't know if I would have. I mean, if I'm being honest, when I was going through my faith transition, I had to accept not knowing for quite a long time. Yeah. So. 

Brian [00:51:48] But before that you knew. 

Meg [00:51:50] Yeah, but before I knew I didn't. So I like when I was quite young, I just kind of, you know, probably up until like 12 or so you just kind of do what your parents do. And so that's kind of what I was doing. But probably when I was like 12, I became like this little I'm not sure God's real like 12 oh get like 1214 probably like in that range. And I didn't know that God wasn't real. Like, I didn't, you know, I didn't have any, but I was just like, I guess I'm saying what if you get like one has a real. Yeah. And you know, is what about Joseph Smith and what about, you know, like I just had all these questions, but really what it came down to is I thought I was like, maybe I was an atheist. And then I told my girlfriends this at a slumber party and they all and then like, I didn't have any LDS friends growing up other than the people who went to church with me, which weren't my school friends. Okay? We were the only Mormon family at my school. But I told my more Christian, I think they were probably all Christian. Francis, I don't know if they were like practicing or attending, but they all believed in God in some kind of way. And I told them like that I'm thinking about basically atheism and, and I was shunned a little for that. Like I was a little bit shamed for that from them. And I was like, Oh, that's like a bad thing. I'm not supposed to tell people. 

Brian [00:53:04] So that's an inside thought. 

Meg [00:53:06] That's an inside thought. Yeah. So we keep that under wraps and and I did that for a while and you know, I was kind of taught that you're it's good to struggle for your testimony. And so, you know, you read the Book of Mormon and you kneel down and you pray and you listen for the spirit and all these things. And I just like committed to do that until I figured it out. And then I had experiences where I mean, and I was like young and just pleading, crying, like really wanting to figure this out. Like, I remember feeling a lot of despair. Also, I was having a lot of despair just because my home life was quite chaotic. And so I think that overlaps quite a lot. But that's a lot of fear for a child. Yeah. And but then, you know, somewhere between like 16 and 17, I felt like I had finally gotten a revelation that this is all true and this is this, of course, then this is my life now. I can't ever deny the spirit. So this is. And I loved it. Like, I was like, this is helping me like reconcile my relationship with my dad because I have a relationship with a perfect dad in heaven, you know, and, and that kind of thing. And so yeah. And that's enough. Well, yeah. So, so right around 17, there was this family in the ward I grew up in who they all had like, like some of their children were a little older and had been on missions, were about to go on missions kind of thing. And they were like the family I looked up to and I was like, Oh, I want to be like them. And they have, as far as I know, a much healthier family system than me, especially as I look at it in retrospect. And so I think there was a lot of yearning to have that. And like, what if I become like one of their daughter who I thought was a total badass? Who would, you know? It's like a fresh return mission. I don't remember where she was at in her life. She was going to. On a mission. She just came back or something and she was really cool and I wanted to be like her because if I was like her, my better half her life and I mean, as far as I know, she still has like a very beautiful life and like, has the life that I thought I wanted, which and I should maybe like Facebook stock her to confirm this. But last time I checked, she is married with like four kids or something and they just look like they have this like kind of the white picket fence Mormon version of that. Right. And that's just kind of what I wanted. That's what I was conditioned to want. And so was. 

Brian [00:55:31] The best of everything around that you saw. 

Meg [00:55:32] Right, right, right. 

Brian [00:55:34] It was all that you knew was right there. So you pick the best and say, that's what I that's what I'm drawn to. 

Meg [00:55:38] So I'll try to emulate her. And frankly, she's amazing. Like, I'm sure I would love to go out to lunch with her and sit down and tell me where your life brought you. And, like, I'm so happy that it's working for you, right? Like, I hope that's the case. Like, I hope she's happy, and maybe my life would have been just like that, but it wasn't. And that's okay too. And so, and for me, that's where I should be or that's I'm grateful I'm here and I'm grateful she's there. I don't yeah. Yeah. Everyone has their own journey. I'm totally I feel really confident to allow people to have their own journey. So I really wanted to go on an LDS mission. I wanted to be a seminary Institute teacher and was getting all these like procedures, calling. 

Brian [00:56:19] Adding the resume for years. Yeah. 

Meg [00:56:21] Carrying the resumé. And I don't even try for them. I'm just like, well, obviously all of this fits and I love the gospel and I love teaching and everybody loves me as a Sunday school teacher. And, you know, like I move people like you go to this other guy's Sunday school and it's super boring and it's like awful. And then I get everyone to cry, you know, like, I'm so proud of it. And yeah, and in some senses, it's just like, Oh, actually, that's kind of cool, because if people are feeling emotional, not that this is always the case, but I tried to be really connected in my lessons, which is still a principle I think is so important. Yes. 

Brian [00:56:54] And so what are you connected to now? And what were you what did you think you were connected to before? 

Meg [00:57:01] Great question. I mean, that's a that's a convoluted I have a convoluted answer for that, because if we're going to talk on the binary, like, okay, I was connected to God and now I'm connected to myself, for example. But I think it's so much more complicated than that because like at the time, I was also really connected to relationships and I was learning more and more about vulnerability. And I was like, I was just there were a lot of things I was connected to that I still am. I don't I just don't see it as this very black and white like the past Meg present. Mac Yeah, yeah. Just like there are so many things about who I was then that are the same now and. And I also am so different now than it was then. 

Brian [00:57:39] Yeah, but that's a great point because there is no past and present. There's just different variations. 

Meg [00:57:44] Yeah. 

Brian [00:57:44] And tomorrow's variation is going to be a little bit different than today. 

Meg [00:57:47] Yeah. And maybe better and maybe worse. And that's okay. Yeah. So I guess to continue with. 

Brian [00:57:55] That's the mission. No. 

Meg [00:57:56] Yes, mission. So I really want to go on a mission and prior to that, to continue padding my resume of churches, um, I, I applied for the BYU Jerusalem Center program. Oh, neat. And I got in a semester later than I was expecting. So I was going to turn 21 while I was there and I was going to do my papers then. But then it turned out to be like four months later. And so I actually and, and then like six months prior to that or something, the mission age changed for both men and women. And so I could I started do my papers right then. I didn't get them until I didn't actually like apply and everything until I think it's like I was 21. I got my mission call. This is like it still it feels really cool, but this was definitely like a brag moment for me. I was living in Jerusalem when I got my mission call. Cool, very cool and very meaningful. I can imagine, like and I wanted to make it really special and so I kept it private that I had them. I just told my roommates. And because you couldn't walk around the city alone. Right. And we went to the Garden of Gethsemane for me to open them. And it was like this amazing experience. And so it felt so spiritual to me. And I, I got assigned to Idaho. And the thing is, it's like most of it. This is like the most like iconic joke of Mormon missions, because it was it was not Boise, but it was the MPA, which was Boise before they split it because of the missionary surge. And so and it's like such this huge joke. But I still felt so good about it because I was like opening it in this amazing place. And I felt so spiritual and so like, this was God's will or whatever. But also my roommate, just weeks, maybe a week or two prior had also opened up. Her mission call. And we were in the mission class together. That couple, the Rim boys, were teaching us how to be good missionaries, whatever. At this Jerusalem center, she had also been called to the same mission. And she was like my room roommate, like. And so it felt it felt very meant to be. And it was a very cool experience. And then there was like no bandwidth, basically, to tell my parents because their wi fi was just garbage and whatever. But so that I had this really cool experience, I went on a mission and I was actually only out for six months is about three months into it. I got really sick. My my trainer had given had gotten mono and it took them like six weeks to figure out that I also got mono of six weeks of needing really sick. And so then we just thought, well of the worst that's over. And I didn't want to go home. And so I just stayed out for like almost another six weeks, just, just like taken able to get through the fevers during lessons like really bad and eventually came home because but I had to wait until I had like a spiritual confirmation that God was okay with me going home. So instead of taking care of my body, I, you know, I was a really hard working missionary and I love my mission. I loved it then. And I still am connected to tons of the people there. And I go back and see them sometimes and but I'm really grateful that I did all of that. And also I didn't take care of myself. Yeah. And so it feels a little bit like a self abandonment. 

Brian [01:01:34] Which it probably is. Yeah. And it's also probably a trail and it was probably also God's will and it was probably had nothing to do with that. 

Meg [01:01:42] Right, right. Exactly. 

Brian [01:01:44] So yeah, grapple with that for a couple of years while you're trying to figure everything else out. 

Meg [01:01:49] Right, right, right. Yeah. And hoping that I would go back and then I stayed sick for three years. 

Brian [01:01:56] Wow. 

Meg [01:01:57] And it got worse. And so mono turned. It never was diagnosed. No one could figure out what was going wrong with me. But basically fibromyalgia, which is like a pretty intense experience for a 22 year old. Yeah, that was really sick for a few years. I had a lot of joint issues. I had. I had a little passing out phase, which was very scary. And I, I mean, I was just like very low energy and a lot of brain fog and a lot of muscle fatigue and thinking that like something like a glass of water felt really heavy to me. And sometimes like being able to turn doorknobs or but my pants so really intense, really sick, very young and still quite believing at that time. And so like leaning on to priesthood blessings. And eventually that got pretty frustrating when like I'd be promised that I would be healed soon and then just thinking about what soon? Because like God has this whole eternity of time, right? And what is soon mean? Because, like, I'm so sick and I can't get through college. Yeah. 

Brian [01:03:00] Why would you use that term soon if that's not what you meant to me? If that's not what I would interpret it as, yeah, I don't need it today, but you know. 

Meg [01:03:06] Yeah. And so, and this is like, you know, and it goes into compassion for the people who did give me those blessings of like, you know, they were dealing with the very intimate parts of my life that they held a lot of power over that they probably weren't even aware of. If they saw it as service or as like my home teachers or whoever it was, my zone leaders. And I have a lot of well, I see that as like a misuse of power for sure. I also have a lot of compassion because that's just what they were programed to do. And I think probably in their hearts they really cared about me because they hurt my tears and, you know, like they comforted me and they were doing it to comfort me. And I think that has really good intentions about it. But intentions does doesn't always equate to positive impact. Mm hmm. And so that matters, too. But I was sorry. You know, I went on a mission, was up for six months, and I really loved it. And I still get I'm very I think I'm probably too prideful about this, but I still get called like the favorite missionary when I go back and visit them. And I guess I think I'm one of the favorites and really particularly favorite. 

Brian [01:04:14] I mean. 

Meg [01:04:14] Maybe. 

Brian [01:04:14] Let's just say it. Let's see what it is. 

Meg [01:04:16] Right? You can call up a couple of them and see, but. 

Brian [01:04:20] I have references. 

Meg [01:04:21] Yeah. So, and I really, I'm really grateful because I got really close to those wards that I served in because I was so sick. They took care of me. They had I mean, they had, you know, the very young adult woman who was so sick and and for my support system, no support system. And so they just rallied for me. And so then they loved me. Yeah. And I love them like that. It just, it's just the same thing as that one bishop. Like, those connections are so important to me and. And there's fear on those connections a little bit now of, you know, I have to be some I do feel like I it serves me sometimes to be more delicate with like my current stance on things, my current beliefs because my political beliefs are very different. My religious beliefs are very different from the majority of that area. And I know who some of like the way progressive Mormons up in that word are. Yeah. And I can talk about that. They talk about my life to them a lot, significantly more openly. Sure. One of them I was like sharing, like I actually might not be straight and I'm going to like, go out with this woman. And she was she was, like, happy for me. And she's like, God's going to figure it out in the end. And she has just like, you know, that has its own things. But it was very supportive. Yeah, but then other people, I'm just like, I'm probably not going to bring up all of these different topics. 

Brian [01:05:53] Why not? 

Meg [01:05:55] Because the really? Because I think I want to do prayer. I want to prioritize the relationship and the goodness that they and appreciate the goodness that they've provided in my life. Okay. More than I care to make them believe what I currently believe because I was doing that when I was there. And I don't think that's actually I don't I'm an advocate, but I don't feel like I want to be evangelist. So if someone, you know, does something, you know, racist, for example, and it's someone I care about in that town, I will call it out and I'm okay if that damages the relationship because there are just those. That's my priority. But I don't feel like I need to go back and tell them like, well, now I believe better. So you should believe what I believe. I don't I don't like that I did that in the past and I don't want to keep doing that. 

Brian [01:06:48] You know, it's interesting because I love that idea of advocate, not evangelize. Mormons are evangelists. 

Meg [01:06:56] Mm. 

Brian [01:06:57] Like, get up missionary school, spread the word convert. Most ex Mormons are not. 

Meg [01:07:04] Oh, I might disagree. I might disagree with you. 

Brian [01:07:06] I think they evangelize their disbelief. 

Meg [01:07:09] I think I mean, definitely not all. Like, I don't want to overgeneralize, but this was one of my bigger qualms with like the post-Mormon community was I hold I hold a pretty deep belief that says practice and believe whatever gives you peace and empowerment. Added that word because I think it's important. But practice and believe whatever gives you peace and empowerment so long as it does not hurt yourself or others. And we could. There's a lot of nuance there hurting people. It's not black and white. So we could talk about that for a long time. But I, I don't remember how I was going to tie that back around. But I think there is something important about letting people have their journey. And what I noticed in some ex-Mormon individuals and some ex-Mormon spaces is there is this sense of enlightenment, and I'm going to preach for the other side and let's get converts. And there is that language even that I'm okay that I hear. And so and some of it is very jokey, like some of it's just like for fun and some of it is very rooted in and I can see this, some of it is very rooted in, but people should know the truth. And this is a really important value for a lot of. 

Brian [01:08:26] Which was the same argument they were making when they were on the other side of the fence. 

Meg [01:08:30] So this is just one example of what I see as a mirror. Yeah. Is I think a lot of things that we see or that we did in Mormonism, we do in post Mormonism. And I think one of them is can be evangelizing is having always known that you are right you know that was kind of the mentality. 

Brian [01:08:54] And now I've changed complete opposite and I'm still. 

Meg [01:08:57] Right. Right. Huh. And this is this is something that I've just I mean, for years have just observed and it rubs me the wrong way. And I get wrapped up in some of it sometimes, like especially I think on some of my stronger political beliefs or like I'm a real big advocate for feminism and I'm just like, you all should know a lot more, like, you know. Yeah. And that is in some ways it can dance on that line between advocacy to evangelism. And I think there's a lot of compassion in wanting other people to know or to learn the truth, especially because there's a lot to say about fact based and evidence. Yeah, there's a there's a lot of really important things that we could talk about there. And I think if people aren't hurting anyone, as far as my value system goes, truth is not my highest. Value. I think you can believe as long as they're not harmful beliefs, you can believe some things, some conspiracy like non-harmful conspiracy theory. And as long as it's harm anybody like. Sure. Like, believe it. Like, if it doesn't make your life better because you are you a better person for it? Is your life more beautiful with it in your in your sphere? And I'm actually really okay with that and it helps for me. It helps take a, I think some of the pressure off of I'm right, you're wrong like I'm right, you should be right. Like I am like correct in the way that I am correct. And I just that's a rigid thing. I believed in my faith of origin. That's a rigid thing that I believed that I experience a lot in my family is just like my way, no highway, like being right at a very like domineering a parental system and. 

Brian [01:10:51] Well, and the only true church and. 

Meg [01:10:52] The only true church. Yeah. And so I think that it helps me kind of take some distance from like might maybe my, well my beliefs weren't what I think are currently true now. My beliefs have changed over this amount of time and I kind of just assume they'll continue changing. Yeah. Which it just like holding what I currently believe so much more loosely and just being significantly agnostic. Like I'm just not sure if what I, what I think now is actually correct. And I like that because it's, it helps me know that well maybe I'll morph again and it won't be so painful is part of the advantage of that. Yeah, but if that's true, and if I've changed from one thing to another thing to another thing, and within that changed many, many ways in different facets within the big changes. And I believe that that will continue to happen. Why would I hold someone else to my current belief now when I believe it's going to continue to change for me over time? Like maybe when I'm 80, I'll have it all figured out and maybe then I can evangelize a little more. 

Brian [01:12:11] Thanks for saying 80 and that 50%. 

Meg [01:12:13] Or 15-20 years away. That's close. Yeah, but like maybe, you know, maybe I'll have a lot more figured out later and, and, but I hope I don't at that time feel that I'm right. Like, I think there will be some strands that have always been true, but I think those things have always been true. Even when I was Mormon. Yeah. 

Brian [01:12:36] So I'm thinking maybe I'm over generalizing and or I'm just finding the evidence that I'm looking for. But it seems like most of the post Mormons that I've met don't like sharing the specifics of what because of somebody that might hear it and it might affect their their testimony. 

Meg [01:12:55] This was, oh, the specifics of like church history, for example. 

Brian [01:12:58] They found. Exactly. They don't the a lot of the pain that they've gone through with the deconstruction, they wouldn't wish that on anyone. Yeah. They're also a little more open minded to the fact that if it's working for you, great you just use keep that. Whereas before that wasn't the case. Yeah, they, they know you need to believe because, you know, there's this, these three kingdoms and two degrees of glory in order to get into the. I want you to be happy. 

Meg [01:13:23] I want you to be happy. 

Brian [01:13:24] After you're dead. 

Meg [01:13:25] After you dead. 

Brian [01:13:26] Yeah, so. But maybe I'm just. Maybe I'm seeing what I. What I already think is there. And I'm maybe I'm over generalizing. I think people do go through an angry phase where they do post things and they post details and it's like, holy shit, did you know? Because that's how they're feeling. And they need to share that with someone and see it with somebody. Yeah, yeah. But and that gets to people. They're like, That can't be right. And we'll just ignore it the same way we used to. 

Meg [01:13:53] Right? 

Brian [01:13:55] So I don't know. That's interesting. I have to think about that some more. 

Meg [01:13:57] Well, I actually I don't think you're wrong. I think I don't think it's either or. I think it's definitely both because I know people who do both and or who I know both types of people. And I think some people do go through that phase. I don't think everybody does of really feeling like, you know, projecting their discomfort and what they're learning onto social media is really a good example and thinking like, well, my beliefs are right now, so you should have my beliefs. I do see that and I know loads of people who do that, who stay stuck in it, and some people who move through it and get to something, I think a little more, more tempered and a little more ethical. But what you're describing of these people who are you know, I don't want to tell us specifics, like I I'm going to stick on a vague. But if you have questions, let's chat. Like if you're in the middle of stuff like I'm open and but I'm not going to do anything without your informed consent. That is ethical and there are loads of people also doing that because I don't want to demonize Mormons or non-Mormons or former Mormons, and I don't want to pedestal ize any of them either. And I think that is where we have problems. 

Brian [01:15:14] I was on the winning team before, and now I've changed and I'm still on the winning team. 

Meg [01:15:17] Winning team. 

Brian [01:15:18] And that means you're a bunch of losers. And I'm going to be so nice and help you out. 

Meg [01:15:23] Mm hmm. It's still. It's still the same savior care, caretaking. It's still the same thing. Just packaged a little different with different information and information that might be more accurate historically. And that might be true. But also, what else will you find out over the rest of your life? And you just don't know what you don't know. And I, I think it's important to well, it's okay to do that. And I think everyone has their own journey. I think there are some ethical issues with that. But also I think about where maybe my time is most valuable. And there are people who want to have those discussions who are already kind of in the struggle of it. And I think it's fine if you make yourself available for that in an informed, consensual way rather than I don't think there's there are people who are doing this. I don't think it's the majority or everyone or whatever. But I don't think we need to go digging into, you know, go to your ward and say something in their Sunday school. Oh, yeah. Right. I don't I don't really think that is as I don't think that's ethical and I don't think that's the setting that's going to make a positive impact. But go, you know, like maybe be honest about like with currently there's like the Instagram trend where it's like ask the anonymous question, right? And then it's like blown up. And there's been a whole conversation about that in like the former Mormon and the Mormon world lately on social media and which has been really interesting to kind of follow. So I might have lost my train of thought, say about that because I sort of started thinking about all these amazing resources that have kind of been created because of it. Oh, but people are sharing because of these anonymous questions. People are sharing more of their experience. And I don't want to ton police people and say there's a right way to do it and a wrong way to do it. I don't think I have the authority on that. Like I'm not the person to ask. Like I might give my opinion, but I might be very incorrect because I've been very incorrect in the past. I'm just not committed to being correct. I like that I can be wrong and I like that I don't have a lot of shame wrapped around that anymore. And then when I'm wrong, make right. Yeah. Like the accountability piece of it is really important, but a lot of people are posting, you know, getting asked, what's your affiliation with the church or not? Right. And I think if you want to be visible, especially because, you know, there are people who are really in the thick of it and which is an extremely painful place to be, at least that was my experience then make yourself accessible. And I think there's a way to do it that I've been noticing. There's one account that I've been following that is talking about this, and it's really creating very cool conversations, very open conversations, very nuanced conversations. And I noticed that the the creator, the content creator has been asked some specific questions about, you know, what are specific things that you left the church over or whatever. And she's putting like a warning. Like there are like, you know, warning, like content warning. There will be church history, like, you know, content. So don't read this if you don't want to know it. And I'm like, yes, that because the people who are really interested and ready, you know, like ready, I don't even mean the word ready. You are in a space where they need that information at that time. Yeah, they'll read it. But to give the opportunity to people to exist in a way that is giving them peace and empowerment at that time. And hopefully they're also trying to be ethical and not do harm and do good. And that's been my experience with most people I've been around, you know, regardless of their beliefs. And not to say that that's there are major issues with religion at large, with Mormonism, with, you know, there are major issues. And I don't think those issues get erased or washed away. Like, if we if we all grew up completely religion less. Yeah, I think we'd have a lot of the same issues. Yeah. And so I'm just not convinced that like fighting, not fighting, but like that kind of fighting, fighting your original faith or like trying to pull people out. I don't really feel like that's I think our energy is better spent, you know, going on and living our lives, maybe staying in spaces where people are already seeking support, maybe creating spaces where people who don't know that they could be seeking support, that they could have support, could go creating like more nuanced spaces. Like what if we spent our energy there? Yeah, I think that's for me. I found that to be. More worthwhile. 

Brian [01:19:57] Yeah, because when you are going through, you do need resources. You do need to talk with somebody. But that no reason to rub everybody else's noses in it. 

Meg [01:20:08] Right. 

Brian [01:20:08] You know. 

Meg [01:20:09] There's so many people who are in that space you could talk to or who need to be talking to someone. Yeah. Find those people. 

Brian [01:20:17] Yeah. And there are some good resources, and they're fairly easy to find. Now. I don't know if that were the case ten years ago, but. 

Meg [01:20:24] It's interesting that you say that we all need someone to talk to and need resources, because most my experience with my religious transition was extremely under-resourced. Mm hmm. I, I was years nonbeliever before I before I connected with any post-Mormon resources. Really? Yeah. So I. Go ahead. What? 

Brian [01:20:49] Why was that? 

Meg [01:20:50] This is so this is a we can get into this. Let me make sure I kind of I'm kind of like, back on that. Oh, I totally forgot that I was trying to finish my order. Let me put a pin in that, and I would love to come back to that. So my experience, you know, going back to the Bible, we'll get through the Bible eventually. Right? Maybe a pen would be helpful if you want. So mission really sick for three years. Really struggling to I mean, dropping out of, you know, my university the first week because I realized my body is not going to be able to walk up this hill every day. Just like doing a couple of classes in the morning and coming home at noon and sleeping till five. Really, really not not doing well, which is that's a whole, like, body health and body image. That's a whole huge thing that I deconstructed while I was sick is just seeing bodies so differently and seeing health so differently. And I have a you know, I have a lot to say honestly there. I don't think about that as consistently as I used to, but there's just that was formative in my adult my young adult years. And I don't know why, but after three years, I started getting better slowly and I don't know why. Nothing. I tried a ton of things that never worked, and then I just kind of surrendered. And then I was still second, still sick, and then all of a sudden I was sick a little bit less and then sick a little, a lot less and then not sick. And so who knows why that has happened. I've kind of try to answer that question. I have I don't have the answers, which is actually an okay thing. You don't need answers for everything. So but it's interesting to think about maybe what it could be connected to, but so is quite sick. Took me a very long time to get through my undergrad, so I was like a little bit of an older student at BYU and like at that point, like in some ways proudly not married because I believed really strongly about like people need to take more time. This is a very important decision to make, especially if you think it's going to be your whole eternity. Why are people not taking that much time? So I was like proud of of not rushing into a marriage and then also fully in the conditioning of like, I should be married before I leave here. 

Brian [01:23:10] Your whole environment was screaming that, right? Right. I mean, how different would your life have been if you had married while you were in college and had a couple of kids real quick. 

Meg [01:23:19] Right. It would I mean, drastically different and I have no idea. 

Brian [01:23:23] It's impossible to even guess what it would have been like. 

Meg [01:23:25] Yeah, I've thought about that. I have a I have one person who I dated quite early in college who I have done the like the hypothetical if we had gotten married, okay, because we both went on missions, it was like early, we both went on missions. He was a little bit younger than me and I just thought maybe like we would both get back, we would get together. And I mean, that didn't happen. But I see his life now and I see his wife and whatever and I'm like, maybe I would have just lived that life and not have had all these disruptions. Or maybe I would have had these disruptions and just shattered his world while my world was shattering because he's very devout. And as last I checked, I have not checked that one very long time. But you know, like, who knows? Yeah, who knows what would have happened? I, I thought, like, when you're about to graduate high school, they ask me, where do you see yourself in five years? Where do you see yourself in ten years? Five years? I thought, okay, when I'm 23, I'll be like, off the mission. I would have just served my mission and I would be dating, you know, and I would be unmarried, but I would be at BYU and I'd be, you know, looking to get married. And then probably by my ten years, like 28, which was two years ago, I would probably definitely be married with at least a couple kids. There's a lot to happen within five years. Yeah, and it didn't even close to happen. I mean, I dealt with illness thinking I might go. My mission, but never getting well, which was really complicated for my dating life to date. Someone who's that sick? Mm hmm. And I didn't love myself as much as I should have at that time. It was. It was a complete identity crisis. And then I was about a year into being sick like that, which was kind of around the time where it was just like Murphy's Law, like it was around the time that I was getting more joint pain. That's when really that started. Flaring up was about a year into being really sick, was also kind of the same time that I was like trying to go back, like trying to work part time because I had not been working. I was too sick to work for almost a year. I was the only thing I could manage to do. A few months before I started, a new job was a once a week temple shift as a temple worker, and that were me out for the whole week basically. And it honestly probably wasn't super taking care of myself to do that, but it gave me a lot of purpose and meaning. And so it was important for the things that I was doing that I was also in a in a really safe pregnancy at that time. 

Brian [01:26:06] Busy calling. 

Meg [01:26:07] Busy calling. 

Brian [01:26:08] Anywhere. That's a busy calling. 

Meg [01:26:10] Yeah. I didn't think anything really other because I almost I almost never didn't have a busy calling. It was just like. 

Brian [01:26:18] Well, you don't turn down a calling. 

Meg [01:26:20] No. Yeah. 

Brian [01:26:21] So this is where the Lord wants me. The bishop is saying this is where the Lord wants me, and so that's where I'll be. 

Meg [01:26:25] And it gave me like I was such an extrovert. I loved being like teaching and being in front of people. I love the gospel like I wanted. I wanted that like it gave me a lot of fulfillment to feel like I'm taking care of people and I have kind of some stewardship over people. Like I felt like, you know, I'm a woman who has power in the church, which is not true. But it felt if there is some semblance of truth to it, in the sense of I did have a voice in some of these meetings and I was using priesthood power in the temple type of thing. So in my mind it was like, I think also partially like this kind of feminist ish thing and obviously like it's up to me, obviously it's feminism under the guise of patriarchy for sure. But it was, it was meaningful for me at the time. It gave me a sense of fulfillment and gave me a sense of power. 

Brian [01:27:21] It was as close as you were going to get. 

Meg [01:27:23] It was as close as going to get. And I didn't think I didn't think that that was that. Yeah. At the time. Yeah. And I don't mean that is not necessarily the word I wanted to use, but I didn't think it was like unfair or unjust. Yeah, but so it was around that time I was but a year of being sick. I was the temple worker in a really sick presidency and trying to start this new job. That's about when faith crisis where I would say like the, the genesis of my faith crisis was a love that I used a biblical word for that. It was very relevant. 

Brian [01:28:01] In the beginning. 

Meg [01:28:02] In the beginning of the faith crisis. Yeah, that's about where it started. And I had already had like some social issues. My dearest friend had come out to me as gay and we were kind of like, How does this work? And I'm asking really hard questions in some of my classes to my professors that they don't know how to deal with me all the time because I'm being aversive, which is just like kind of part of my personality. I was just always a boat rocker, which is part of why I became like the scapegoat in my family and like a difficult child and a difficult woman. And like, you know, it doesn't take that much to be difficult, but I was one of those people who would be challenging. 

Brian [01:28:49] You could ask a question or do something that falls outside of the norm. That's enough. 

Meg [01:28:53] Right? 

Brian [01:28:54] It's like you said, it doesn't take much. 

Meg [01:28:56] It doesn't take that much. And so now I've more or less embraced being difficult because. 

Brian [01:29:02] We're rock on this boat. 

Meg [01:29:03] Yeah, we're just going to rock the boat. And if the boat is, like, not budging, like, if the boat's not willing to be rocked, I'm going to find a different space. I've had to leave spaces. I actually just posted something about this. I've had to leave spaces that I've outgrown many times and but not without a significant amount of shrinking before I started to leave. I think we forget, like when we rock the boat and it doesn't work, I think we forget how much of a toll it takes. And for me, I get smaller when that happens. And then I realize like I don't feel like myself. I got to get big again and I'll take get big and then it's really painful and I'll get smaller. This was my whole experience in my upbringing is like I define myself as I feel like my parents wanted a cookie cutter version of me and that most of my siblings really fit well into what they expected. And I thought, you know, kind of like a circle or square or whatever. And I always felt like I was a star, which is just that's a little conceited of a thing to think. Like, I had, you know, people would be like, Meg, you're going as a theater, theater, whatever. And I was like this diva first soprano. Like I had there were things in a tiny, tiny little town where I had significant talent for that size of town, but not compared to the world. Anyway, there's a learning curve when you realize you're b y, you're like, everyone's just as talented and smart as me. And actually they're mostly more talented than me. But that was really that was an adjustment. But, but I really felt like I was not fitting into the mold that my parents expected. And that was really uncomfortable. And I would stand my ground and I would be defiant and I would be I would rock the boat, I would be challenging. And they could beat me back enough into that mold just with shame and all sorts of things. And where I would be like I maybe I'm actually not good enough. And also getting that message at church. And so I would, I would kind of just shapeshift from like, I got to change them all, be this be the circle. You know, I've just got to I just have to do that. It's the only way to survive. I use a ton of survival techniques just to get through this time. And then I would be like, I cannot do this. I'm suffocating. It'd be like, I'm going to be my whole big self and be be a star. Right? And it just I, you know, just a little bit kind of back and forth of growth, try to grow out of it. And like you're pushing the edges and making them uncomfortable and being difficult and then and then just realizing that they're going to need you to shrink in order for you to feel safe. And so a lot of that happened in my upbringing and it's a pretty decent analogy for how I felt within my faith system, especially as my viewpoint started challenging what I was supposed to believe. And so I had I already had like quite a few different social issues that I was grappling with, you know, prior to my mission, prior to my, my genesis of my faith crisis, specifically around the queer community was already like pretty heavily grappling with that and not fitting into the church's mold for that. And then and then it just kind of amplified the more I realized this wasn't working for me. And so my experience being that like this isn't a church expects you to. 

Brian [01:32:32] Okay. 

Meg [01:32:34] So remind me, do you remember that thing we just put a pin in about that I want to get back. 

Brian [01:32:39] To, you know, resources. 

Meg [01:32:40] Yeah. Okay. So that we're basically get in there. So at the time I was kind of like a non attending BYU student because I was very sick. I took I took like a year and a half off of school at least, plus my mission, plus my study abroad, because that kind of counts, but not really. I mean, as far as credits go toward my major and then yeah, I would took it and then I was like taking a couple of semesters really like loads because I just, I was too sick to do a full load of classes, so, so I kind of just had this, I don't know, not to say it like a moment, but I just had this like experience where I started feeling like and this was a generalized. So my experience with faith crises was not like I did not come across some information that didn't sit well with me. My experience was way more existential. It was the root of it or the foundation was it was my relationship with Deity didn't make sense anymore. And but I wanted to have it in its fullness back because it had served me for so long because, yeah, like my relationship with God was everything. It was my whole it was on kind of my whole identity. Like I was in all these high callings and I was trying to be the Institute teacher and everything like that. So I had this experience with basically every facet of my life and I don't know what to call this. I, I think someone told me that it had something similar to happen to them, but I basically and was beyond, well, I have this experience where it felt like I'll give you an analogy. It felt like everything that I cared about was on this horizontal plane. Just like if you could picture me being in the center of this, you know, feel this realm and just, you know, represent like different things, representing things. So there was like a God box and a family box and a friend's box and a whatever, school box and whatever and all these things that were around me and not say boxes, but just things around me that I cared about. And what ended up happening like spring of 2013 was this plane that was horizontal went tapping and went vertical. And so what it felt like and I don't want you to picture boxes. Picture everything that could be in a box everywhere. 

Brian [01:34:58] Okay. 

Meg [01:34:59] And all of it just started falling all around me. And I was also falling and I couldn't like and this is what it felt like. I don't know the I've always described it this way. I was like trying to grasp onto the things that were important to me, get them close to me. But every time I would do that, there was so much momentum that it would just hit me and hurt me. And there was kind of a lot of apathy, but it wasn't just it wasn't what I was used to experiencing, like depression wise and apathy wise. Like I was very well acquainted with those feelings. And it wasn't that. It was brand new thing that I've never felt before. And I just was like, I should care about my friends and I don't care. And I'm losing. I don't I'm losing contact in connection with everything in my life. And I didn't know what was going on. And I still frankly don't. So that was like going on. And I had a good friend who told me that just like surrender like that. This happened to me before. If you just kind of like, stop like hustling to hold everything, cause he's like, try to keep up your habits of, like, call your friend when you usually call your friend or, like, you know, do this thing that you need to keep your job or whatever, but don't care if you don't care. Just like you'll care soon. This is temporary. Just kind of need to surrender to it and. And it'll eventually kind of level back out. And so that's what I did and that's what happened. And so it kind of leveled back out. But if you can imagine, like a plane and everything has been falling for a really long time. Everything was everywhere. Yeah. And it was like collection, like go out and collect everything. And so I'm like re finding, you know, the things that were important to me and bringing them back closer to me and whatever. And I was doing this over time and really only just like this probably happened within a month. All of this and the pieces that I couldn't find were basically God. And this, this is still I still totally get emotional when this comes up because it was so important to me at the time. It was my and it was basically my entire identity. And I like I couldn't find my connection to what I would have called like my heavenly father. Like I felt like I had fallen out of love with Jesus while like looking at these pictures on my wall of Jesus and of the living Christ and of the proclamation of the world, you know, like just really being in and not feeling it after. Like, I was currently a temple worker and currently in reliefs I present. Like, I was just like, I am supposed to be feeling these things. I know how to feel them. I've felt them for years and years and years, like my whole adult life and also as a teen it for part of the time as a teenager. And where did this go? Like, I can't not have this. And I just like hustled for it, read tons of things. I would sometimes tell some people about it, but it was really embarrassing for me. It was really shameful for me. And I had and then this was kind of over time where I thought that all I just need to do is kind of double down on my habits and like the commitment to things and do what I'm supposed to do, but also simultaneously in a kind of a much more nuanced way. And this is it was based on shame. But I also asked to I got it was like a new semester. It was like going into like spring and summer. And so they did a new release I presidency and I got recalled into it was classic and I said, no, y yeah. This is when I was like deeply believing. And so that was like a pretty. 

Brian [01:38:33] What made you do that, that you turned down a calling before? No, no, no. 

Meg [01:38:37] I'd never turned anything on before I it became mostly I think. So I turned down that calling because I didn't feel worthy. 

Brian [01:38:47] Because that boxes empty or missing. 

Meg [01:38:49] Yeah yeah. So I didn't feel it's like it's interesting it's still is bringing up tears. I didn't feel like worthy to have stewardship over this group of women because I wasn't feeling the spirit. I was like, they deserve someone who can actually, like, get revelation and teach them and, like, feel powerful. And I don't I don't feel powerful in my face right now. And I don't want to I don't want to do that to them. And also, like I, I just didn't know if I could sustain it. And so I just I said, I don't like I can do this just. 

Brian [01:39:22] To just tell y or did you to say I don't think I you. 

Meg [01:39:24] Know, that's a good I don't remember. Okay. But I definitely bawled my eyes out. I was a very consistent I'm a crier in general, but I was like a very consistent, like cry to the bishop. And then, I mean, they deal with tears all the time, I'm sure. But like that, I've cried to a lot of just strange white, strange white, middle aged men. Like I've done that a lot. So that's a weird thing is a weird it's a weird thing. And I really lucked out with Bishop. I, I've mostly had good. Audiences mostly to that. I'm like really grateful. Which actually is basically the next part is the bishop at the time was new and amazing with me. And I, you know, in the sense of it was what I needed at the time for the most part, that I felt really safe and comfortable with him. He cared a lot about me. Yeah, it was. We have such a sweet connection and just is a good just a good hearted person and also funny and good to be around. But I was so worried that I was losing this connection with God that I was like, you know, doubling down really my services, my praying heart, praying so hard and all the time, like fasting. And like, actually, you know, I was sick, so I probably wasn't fasting, so I probably was blaming myself for not having it because I couldn't. 

Brian [01:40:45] Be so weak that you can't fast. 

Meg [01:40:46] Yeah. Yeah. So, but I was signing this bishop and and I don't know what's wrong with me. I feel really broken. I felt super broken. And he didn't know either. He was like, Well, you're doing all the things. I'm like, I'm doing all things. Yeah, I eventually it was partially because I had started my new job. It was just that the call center couldn't do anything active. But I had started this new job, which was taking a lot of time and energy out of me being sick that I kind of it was twofold. Like I was way too sick to do a temple shift. Like, I could not work six days a week. There was like, you know, work five days and do temple shift. I could like there was no way I was like sicker than the other workers there who are mostly older. They have like a room, like a rest room with like a bed and stuff, like a not a bed, but just like a bench. Hmm. And I was, like, so sick as a temple worker, probably like June 2013. And I thought, I feel so guilty about this because there's all these, like, aged women around me who are just perky and doing everything. And I'm just like, I literally can't do this and I need to lay down. And they were like, We're not going to pass on all these things. So I had to go in like the what I saw at the time as like the room that old people need a rest go in. But I was in it as a 23 year old and that was quite disorienting for me. But I'm glad they had it right. So it was partially I quit. I quit being a temple worker. I like resigned from that or whatever. I'm I don't know how to say it opted out. I have no idea how you quit. But I stopped doing that around that time because I was also performing. I had so much dissonance performing these ordinances, not feeling a spirit when historically I felt so strongly about doing all these things and all of a sudden it was gone. I didn't care. And I felt so guilty about not caring. Yeah. And so that never came back in the same way. But also as I was at BYU and surrounded by a bunch of just like young college kids and not really, you know, noticing the reactions of some people. If I were, it would express struggling with my testimony, in essence. 

Brian [01:43:07] Because it's a sign of weakness, because. 

Meg [01:43:11] It's a good question. I'm trying to think of specific. I have some specific people. Like I was just I got to the point where I was in like the depths of despair that I wasn't really feeling connected to God, that I would do anything like I called the the always, always men, which is. 

Brian [01:43:27] Really conditioned and. 

Meg [01:43:28] Trite. 

Brian [01:43:29] That's where you. 

Meg [01:43:29] Go. You know, I call my elders current president. I called my home teachers and I was like, tell them or I would like cry because it was breaking me. Like, I was like, I'm supposed to feel God, I'm doing everything I should and I'm not getting like, quote unquote, the blessings and what is happening to me. Like, maybe I'm not a good person and I'm just like also I was taught to self loathe my whole life and so that was a particularly bad time for that. I like, I distinctly remember like a photo that I have of myself where I look very cheerful, but I was going to the bishop and being like, I hate myself. And it's just, it's very telling of my history with my upbringing and also kind of what we're taught to believe if we don't have the spirit, like if you're not worthy. And I was in a situation where I didn't feel like I had followed God's commandments, which I'm kind of laughing about a little bit now, because it was just such a low level thing that it's comical at this point. But it made me like, talk to my bishop and be like, I have sinned, you know, like you need to take away my temperament. And she was like, I don't actually think he's like, okay, well, don't take a sacrament to go to the temple, but are you going to go to the temple? Like, I'm not going to take your recommend. You're not going to go to the temple, are you? I was like, No, I feel so unworthy. I would never step in the Lord's house and. He's like, Yeah, you can keep that piece of paper. You'll be fine. I don't. I trust that you won't abuse that. And I'm like, I would never. This was a very, very honest, transparent, confessing type of Mormon. 

Brian [01:45:09] I'm so curious if you don't want to tell me. That's why I'm so curious. Because we do. We're taught that if if if we're not getting the blessings that we need, that you look inward. 

Meg [01:45:21] Mm hmm. 

Brian [01:45:22] It's your. There's something that you're lacking. And this is the this is the way the Lord helps you find out what that is. So you do you go through this grueling process of, well, my prayers haven't been great. I've only we haven't been having family home evening we haven't been having family prayers after my personal prayers in the morning before I go out and read my scriptures for a half an hour, I could read my scriptures for an hour and I could take time off if I don't have time to go to the temple during lunch. But I could go sit in the parking lot and read my scriptures. I mean, it just it never, never ends. 

Meg [01:45:51] You could always do more. 

Brian [01:45:52] And the weight of that. And to come down to these tiny little things. Well, of course I'm not perfect. Yeah, you're not going to be. You don't get there. And happiness only comes when you're perfect and after you're dead. Apparently. So good luck chasing that all the way through. So, anyway, I'm sorry. I didn't mean to interrupt. 

Meg [01:46:11] No, that's fine. Yeah, I. I totally resonate with that. Is you just. You do have to do more until you feel better, but it's almost unreachable. But it hadn't been unreachable for me. 

Brian [01:46:27] Almost. 

Meg [01:46:28] I mean it, but it for me, it hadn't like I had been reaching, you know, I was knocking out of the park as far as being like a young Mormon lady, like I. 

Brian [01:46:38] You were a missionary. You were going you are work service, working the temple, but you were only working in the temple one day a week. 

Meg [01:46:44] No. 

Brian [01:46:45] I mean, that was the kind of thought that goes through my head. 

Meg [01:46:47] Yeah. 

Brian [01:46:48] It is. You know, you're only going to temple one time a week. You're only going to. Oh, I just. Yeah, it never ends. I just. 

Meg [01:46:55] Yeah, yeah. There was always more to do, I think. I wonder. It's interesting to think about like I don't think I. I think enough ness. The inadequacy is just like a deep thread of my life, like originating from many places. But as far as, like knowing that I was doing enough, I think for me at the time, like prior to the crisis of the marker for knowing that I was doing enough is if I was consistently feeling the spirit, which I had been. I mean, years of that were really strongly like feeling like I had a connection to deity and I was forgiven or I was, you know, like I just pretty consistently felt those things. I felt inspired to go do this or whatever. 

Brian [01:47:44] Even through the, in my case, anxiety and depression. You still felt the spirit. I kind of always considered that the anxiety and depression was lack of feeling. The spirit. 

Meg [01:47:55] Yeah, this is a really good question because part of when I was when I would like tell I had a roommate who I talked to her mom about my stuff and, and she did attribute my lack of feeling in spirit to my mental illness. Just issues with depression, anxiety, all of these things. But I was like, for me that wasn't enough. When it's really bad, that's not what it feels like. But like, if I'm feeling like deeply depressed, you know, more morbid thoughts or beyond that, like my constellation was always God and that that helped a lot. That's I mean, I literally would have would did say that God kept me alive. And I fully believe that in my teenage years, I don't think if I had that that I wouldn't attempted suicide. Yeah. And, you know, I'm really grateful I didn't. And it's I mean, it's a hard thing and a lot of people do experience things like that. So for me, I mean, I've been dealing with, you know, mental illness for a decade at that point, but also still really consistently feeling in spirit. And I don't think that's the experience for everybody because like, how do you feel things when you don't feel things because you're depressed. 

Brian [01:49:05] You're not feeling anything. 

Meg [01:49:06] Right? Yeah, but for and I don't know, I don't know why my experience feels different from that. And I don't want it to be invalidating like of your experience or anybody else. 

Brian [01:49:15] I was just interested that you still felt like you felt despair because there was a long time where I felt like I didn't. And I look under now. It's like it's just. It was depression. Yeah. You weren't feeling anything right. 

Meg [01:49:25] And I don't know how I adapted that because, I mean, I was dealt I dealt with like very consistent depression and dark, dark thoughts for like a very long time in my young adulthood and teenage years. But I still felt very close to God and I thought the spirit. And so I didn't ever see those two things, not like not working together. And so then when I was like, because I remember feeling so resistant to my roommate's mom when she was like. It's depression. I was like, No, it's not. I've been depressed forever. 

Brian [01:49:59] Right? I know what that is. 

Meg [01:50:01] And I used to feel a spirit even though I was depressed. This isn't just depression. Like, I don't know. Like, it's not because of depression. I've been depressed and had God with me before. And so I was I was remember being really feeling really resistant to that. And like, like it didn't make sense to me because it wasn't my experience. So yeah, I don't know necessarily how to explain having been able to actually it might be more or less that the, the hope and the meaning of my belief in God that all of that hope and meaning that it gave me to survive is the only thing I could lean on. It was the thing, the external thing that I leaned on when things were so dark for me like it was my lifeline is the rope, you know, at the bottom of the well. Yeah. I wonder if it was it felt more or less like than I do. I have attributed being alive to my relationship with God, which is a it's a big statement. Yeah. 

Brian [01:50:57] And it's a frightening statement. 

Meg [01:51:00] It's a frightening statement because then what happens when you lose that definition of deity. 

Brian [01:51:05] You find support someplace else. 

Meg [01:51:07] You find it. I found it in myself and in many other places, but I've learned that I don't. We all need external resources and we all need to support each other. And we're here for relationship. And I can have my own back. Yeah. I don't need to depend on some external source, right. To know that I'm, you know, worth being here. Yeah. Yeah. 

Brian [01:51:25] And that that all takes work and practice and. 

Meg [01:51:28] Very deep, emotional, painful work and is a work in progress. Like, I don't feel like we land like I know. Or at least if we land, it's mostly temporary. Like, I think we keep growing. 

Brian [01:51:41] No, but there's something about being able to look yourself in the eye, in the mirror and say, you're a goddamn cheetah. 

Meg [01:51:47] Hell, yeah, right. 

Brian [01:51:48] Well, maybe there's something about that. Yeah, you are. You don't need to worry about anybody else. You don't need to borrow that from anybody else. You don't need to just, you know, just. That is so enlightening and so empowering to even at one time to believe that. Because then you can go back on that and you can reflect on that and you can remember that and that can help. And like you said, you do need help in other places. We all do. 

Meg [01:52:11] Right. 

Brian [01:52:11] Right. I think that's part of the whole human condition, the whole connection, the whole reason for this podcast, the whole any interaction or relationship. Right. But it is wonderful to be able to look in the mirror in your own eyes and not have to say, I have to look for somebody else to find out how I fit in or where I fit in. This this person is a cheetah. This is a wonderful, wonderful thing. 

Meg [01:52:38] I'm noticing you're emotional, which is wonderful. I'm just wondering what's coming up for you? 

Brian [01:52:46] So I'm like a die-hard feminist that I never knew about. I coached hockey for a long time, but I love coaching women's lacrosse. I love seeing when a young woman just finds herself and that and she decides what she wants to be. And I just I absolutely love that because I'm surrounded by so many of them and I haven't. And it breaks my heart. And I have three daughters and I hope they find themselves I worry more about some days other than others. But yeah, there's just and I shouldn't say just young women. I like it when anybody finds themselves. I just feel like women in general do not have that the path paved for them, they have hurdles and they're expected to carry all of this baggage and clear the hurdles and the whole time second guessing themselves that I can't be I can't do this like this can't be done. And when I look at what they're asked, being asked to do, I feel that sometimes I feel like you're right. You absolutely cannot nobody can do that. Put down that weight, kick the hurdles over around it, do something else, get off that track. Do you find what you want to do? You go off into your trail and do your thing. And I think we're getting a little bit better at that. But almost all of my favorite characters and books that I'm writing and the books that I read are all women. They're young women, and they're just they're standing up for what's theirs. And they're just finding that piece of themselves and just saying, I'm a cheetah. And I just that's just such a powerful message. And it is literally it's one of the most powerful things that I can see when I see it in any form is just how much it means. And knowing how that person's life just got so much better. Not necessarily easier, right? But the fact that they can come to that realization at some point and hopefully keep it as much as possible through the day, because I know there are days when you just. Totally forget that. We all do that. Everybody gets that. But it's so much easier for a woman, I think, to have that taken from them or hidden from them or convince themselves that that's not a thing or what they should be doing something different or what you're doing isn't. It flies in the face of what you should be doing and your role is someplace else. And I just those messages get caught in my throat. They just ache. 

Meg [01:55:24] So heavy weight. I feel like two to carry as a dad. Watching watching that. 

Brian [01:55:30] Yeah. And for me, I don't know if it's just if it's just Dad. I just always felt. It's just being a human. It's just. It's unfair. And I did a campaign for our lacrosse team. I know it had to be ten, 12 years ago that just had some of the young women just I got some action photos of them shooting and cradling and running and just just looking fierce. Just fierce. And I got some great closeups of them. And the caption for all of them was, there is no such thing as a female athlete. 

Meg [01:56:02] Yeah. 

Brian [01:56:03] And I just that it just resonated with me back in the day and I just love that I wanted them to know that. And I think some of them did, but I know some of them didn't. 

Meg [01:56:13] Yeah. 

Brian [01:56:14] And it's not their fault. It's not that they were trying. It's just that the odds of them overcoming that with everything else on their plate is just ridiculous. Right. And they didn't find the support and they didn't hear that message and they weren't able to look in the mirror and see themselves in the eyes and. 

Meg [01:56:28] Yeah. 

Brian [01:56:29] And get past that. And, and it sucks because men just start there. 

Meg [01:56:33] Right. 

Brian [01:56:34] That's just never a thing. Right. They don't have to have those weights and then or even have those hurdles. They just run around the track once and they're done. Right. And we need to do much better at that now because we're missing out on so much. There is so much there that we just aren't tapping into and allowing to happen. 

Meg [01:56:51] Right. Yeah. And I think I think probably now's a really good time to bring up like the intersectionality of it, too. Like as a white woman, I come into the world with baggage and facing hurdles and obstacles. And then you look at intersectionality and queer women and women of color and disabled women. And there's just so many things, you know, people who are women, who are born into poverty. There's so many things. Women who've been abused. Mm hmm. There's so many things that. So many more things that some women face that adds to all of that. Yeah, that isn't that. That's like a unique intersection, and that makes things more difficult to work through overcome. 

Brian [01:57:39] And the one thing that to me that is so beautiful is there are many of them that are doing it. 

Meg [01:57:45] Mhm. 

Brian [01:57:46] And there is no reason why they should have been a been able to do that given what they were asked to do. There is no reason they should have been able to do that. And they did. And I feel bad for the individuals that are still trying and just say, why can't I do that? That person did that and it's like, it's first of all, don't compare yourself. You've got different burdens and different hurdles, but second of all, you're trying. And third, what can we do to help? 

Meg [01:58:12] You're right. There are a lot of bad assets. Yeah. 

Brian [01:58:14] And is awesome. 

Meg [01:58:16] Already doing shit that the world did not set them up to do. 

Brian [01:58:19] No. But even their realizations of them being on the stage with Peyton Manning and Kobe Bryant saying, finally, we're here, we've done it, we're with all of them, the rest of them, and then seeing them go off and get in their private jets and you figure out how you're going to afford the plane ticket home. It's like we're on the same stage at all. Right, that's ridiculous. How did that happen? When are we actually going to be on the same stage and actually be given the same award? 

Meg [01:58:43] Yeah. Yeah. That's the thing about privilege. It comes in a lot of different forms and we all have a different packaging of. Hmm. And some don't have any or much. Yeah. How do you deal with like for me thinking about those things, I feel like a little hopeless. How do you deal with I don't know what comes up for you, but like how do you deal with this like kind of impending doom of like are the people who are less privileged, like going to make it like, do we ever all win? I don't know if you like, think about those things or like in your observation of it, but. 

Brian [01:59:18] So I recently had a conversation with a friend from Argentina, and she's worked with the U.N. World Food Program for a number of years. And I've talked with her on recording and off about Are you doing anything making any difference? And she says real change is just so incremental. It's heartbreaking to see that it's there, she says. But I do see the incremental change. And there are occasional back slides. But I think overall, incrementally we're getting there, which I would have to take her word for it. She's much closer to that particular problem than I am. But I also look at these giant organizations with these huge bankrolls that are essentially doing nothing and a token effort and a huge headline. And it's like, no, that's ridiculous. I mean, some of these problems for some of these individuals could be eradicated if you chose to do that. Granted, you wouldn't have any money left or you wouldn't have as much left, but it would be it would just go away. We can just spend money and make it go away. 

Meg [02:00:20] Right. 

Brian [02:00:21] And we're not. I just. I don't get that. 

Meg [02:00:24] Yeah, it seems like there's some psychological, ethical, compassionate thing to do that we have no power to do that. 

Brian [02:00:33] And I can't think of a reason to not do it. I, I try to say, okay, I understand you don't want to blow the whole nest egg so you don't have anything great. Don't do all of it. Do some of it right. Make a huge impact, solve it in 25 states and then worry about the other 25. Solve it for the lowest 10% and then worry about the next ten percent. And again, minute effort and huge headlines. 

Meg [02:01:00] Right. It's really disappointing. 

Brian [02:01:02] So it's easy to. 

Meg [02:01:03] The hopelessness is just real and very easily accessible. And that's like coming from I would put myself in a position of a lot of privilege and power. I assume you would do. Yeah. And I've seen I'm not acquainted in the same way. But there is, there's deeper hopelessness out there, too. Yeah. It's so accessible to me. And then I think of like, you know, groups who have been oppressed in a myriad of ways. Yeah. And significantly worse than I have ever or will ever experience. 

Brian [02:01:32] And there are also groups that you're working with on a regular basis that are made better by your conscious effort. That's making a difference. 

Meg [02:01:41] Okay. 

Brian [02:01:42] So does it solve it? No. 

Meg [02:01:43] Yeah. 

Brian [02:01:44] But did it help on a on a grassroots level? Yeah. Did putting those stupid little yard signs around, did that help for some people, yeah. And for their partners and friends and families and their circle of influence, that's going to make a difference for a while. Did we get ten out of ten? No, we didn't get ten out of ten. I would love to get ten out of ten. 

Meg [02:02:07] And a thousand. Out of a thousand. You're like, I don't know. And we get a. 

Brian [02:02:12] Billion that really need it the most. I don't even know them. I can't. 

Meg [02:02:17] Write. 

Brian [02:02:18] The ones that I can reach out to. I feel like I'm making a little bit of a difference. Yeah, and I still teach girls lacrosse last semester was with fifth and sixth graders, and I think there were a couple of people there that, you know, their fifth and sixth grade, they're not going to have their whole lives changed, but they're going to remember parts of it. Right. And I brought a friend who was transgender to coach with me. And I don't know if many of them even recognized it, but I'm hoping that the one or two that needed to recognize it will. 

Meg [02:02:48] Yeah. 

Brian [02:02:49] At some. 

Meg [02:02:49] Point. Yeah. 

Brian [02:02:50] And that'll just be one more flag on a, on a building that they can say that they're okay with this. This is safe. This is okay. 

Meg [02:02:59] Yeah. 

Brian [02:03:01] And again, that's, that's a group that I can interact with. I can do things outside of that. And I need to do things outside of that. And I need to look for opportunities for the most difficult 1%. And I would love to know more about them. If people are listening and they know of some help, then let me know and let's make our efforts. But until then, I can just, you know, reach out the group that I know I'll put a flag up at our house and stand up for people and conversations and postings and stuff where ten years ago I probably wouldn't have said anything. 

Meg [02:03:35] Mhm. 

Brian [02:03:36] And now there's a cost but I do it and I see that cost. 

Meg [02:03:41] And I grieve that cost. 

Brian [02:03:43] I agree with that cost. I do too. Yeah, I do too. 

Meg [02:03:47] But it's not harder than not doing the right thing. No, no, I think that's a good reminder because I it's really easy to feel like the effort I'm doing is like a drop in the ocean. Like, but. 

Brian [02:04:00] It's a drop that wasn't there. 

Meg [02:04:01] Was a drop that wasn't there. And I think it's really easy to kind of catastrophize like it's never going to get done because it's big organizations. It could do it, aren't doing it and they don't care enough. And why are the people who care just like individuals who are like trying to make it budge and like it's budging, but like it could move? Yeah. And it is easy to get caught up, I think, in that that process. But it's, it's a good reminder to think of like those closest to me. I guess this is like kind of twofold because I've hurt those closest to me, you know, over the years and even currently, like, you know, we are human, so we hurt people. And I take significant more accountability. I think now I recognize it better now, but. I, I think recognizing the actual impacts are good that I have like in my actual sphere of influence. This is a good reminder to be like, you know, hear that comment that person made about how significant my own influence was in their life. And that matters. 

Brian [02:04:59] It does matter. 

Meg [02:05:00] Yeah. 

Brian [02:05:01] And you say a drop in the ocean, if you take a little food coloring and you put a drop in a glass, it seems like, well, it's just a drop. It it affects a lot more than that drop watch. And it will. And you don't see all of it when you when your bag drop sometimes but. 

Meg [02:05:15] Then that's a good point is I don't actually know who I am influencing so I, I don't remember when this was maybe after like the Holland talk that was quite queer phobic. It was probably around there and I was posting some advocacy stuff in and some hotlines to call in different things. And I don't remember why this conversation happened, but someone who I haven't known for years, in the years since probably that word that I was saying no to the calling like that, we reached out to each other. I can't remember why or who is that? Who. But I don't know really anything about her life at this point. But she told me that she's queer but not out, and that it's just nice to know that people who probably weren't safe before. Yeah, are safe and that people can change and people can grow into loving like her full self and all these things. And I'm just like, Oh, I had no idea. Like, apparently she was on my radar. Like some people, you just are in your social media. You don't, you know, it's been years and you don't know that they're actually actively watching your stuff. You haven't seen their stuff in forever or whatever. 

Brian [02:06:20] But and they're holding onto that. 

Meg [02:06:22] Yeah. And it makes a difference. 

Brian [02:06:24] Yeah. And I think there's, there's a magnifying effect there as well because that person didn't know that about you. Maybe that person think there are other people. I don't know that about that. I just haven't run across or haven't seen the right post forum. But maybe there are more people than I realize that are that are there to support me. And what I need am I can reach out to tell me that little drop in the bucket. Does it make a difference? 

Meg [02:06:47] Yeah. Yeah. I get more people that drop some but some drops in a bucket. Yeah. 

Brian [02:06:52] Well like, like any rainstorm. Right. It's, it's all one drop at a time. 

Meg [02:06:56] Now, it's funny because that was like little evangelical of what I'm saying. We got to get more people, drop in, drops into a bucket. It's like pretty. 

Brian [02:07:05] I, I'm impressed by your ability to recognize those thoughts and those judgments in yourself. And I know those didn't come easy and I'm working on a lot of those. Those are all little drops in the bucket that over the time have that cumulative effect in your life right now, in mine and now in whoever is listening. 

Meg [02:07:27] Yeah, yeah. It'd be interesting to see, like, I always love the idea of, like, in heaven, like motion picture of your life and everyone's lives and, you know, being able to measure all these things and like a lot of good plays, references, that TV show. I've always loved the idea of like being able to see like how much good versus not that you did. Yeah. And like who you impacted that you never knew, right? Like the thing that you said that change someone's day or those things which I was I historic. I mean, I remember reading this quote as a teenager never suppressed a generous thought. I don't know who it's attributed to, but and I don't I don't necessarily lean super heavily into this now. I don't think about all the time, but I used to think about it all the time and I'd be on campus. It'd be like, Hey, I really love your blouse like yellow across the campus. And I'd be like, hopefully that like brighten their day or like I would like to do things. I was always so like I want to do something like impactful enough on someone's day, just small and simple, but like something impactful so that it would be worthy of a dinner conversation. It's kind of like one of my goals because and goals that I would never know, like stuff that I would never get to follow up on to strangers. And I loved doing that. I still do. And I always was like, It'll be so cool to see like, you know, someone have a story, you know, like be able to, like they're. 

Brian [02:08:54] Telling their grandchildren about, yeah. 

Meg [02:08:56] Like I get to be a fly on the wall when they're like retelling the story that happened that like some random stranger girl like did. And I have stories about that, about other people. Like you're walking from the grocery store and someone driving into the parking lot and like yelling out the window, something nice about me. And I'm just like, I remember that car. They were so nice, like, and that that makes a difference, even if it's just for that afternoon, right? Or if it's something I remember a year or two later. 

Brian [02:09:28] Which may have been a really awful afternoon. 

Meg [02:09:30] Yeah. 

Brian [02:09:31] Or just the mediocre friend. You know, you've made it that much better, right? 

Meg [02:09:35] Yeah. We all have power that way. Yeah. 

Brian [02:09:38] I don't. I don't. I don't think I'm a pessimist, but I look at the other. Their side of that and say, but look at the news algorithms that we're just inundated with and that people listen to day in and day out. And it's just this barrage of all those people over there. They're all stupid, but we can't fix that. Well, we can't fix that. We're fixing that right now. 

Meg [02:09:59] We're trying to fix that drop in the bucket. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. 

Brian [02:10:06] We started with the question. We haven't quite got there yet. Do you want to take a break and come back to it? Are you okay? You want to keep going? 

Meg [02:10:11] I'm. I'm fine. If you want to take a break, we're going to break. 

Brian [02:10:14] No, we can keep going. 

Meg [02:10:15] Got water. Okay, pee so well. 

Brian [02:10:19] Okay, let's roll through. So I think I can tell what time it is. I can't even read that thing. So couple hours ago, I ask you, what's on your mind? We didn't quite get there. 

Meg [02:10:30] Yeah, I. 

Brian [02:10:31] Think we might have touched on a little bit, but yeah. Let's talk about what you want to talk about. 

Meg [02:10:37] I wonder if I can remember we've had such I. 

Brian [02:10:39] Wrote down a few things in. 

Meg [02:10:40] Conversations, I have to. 

Brian [02:10:42] Say, patriarchy and sexism. 

Meg [02:10:43] Yeah, we could talk about that for a long time. 

Brian [02:10:46] We did talk about body health and body image. 

Meg [02:10:49] Um, I can tell you you're some of my 80 things. Okay. Did we talk about that before? Where Gabrielle told me, like, she's got, like, 80 things, and I'm like, yeah. Like, I just. Yeah, it feels like there's so many directions to go in, and it makes me a little bit indecisive about where I really want to go. But there is so much. Wow. I mean, I'm like, thinking, like, do I really want to go here? 

Brian [02:11:14] We're not in a hurry. Think for a minute. 

Meg [02:11:16] Yeah. Okay. The thing that, that that's like calling me back from kind of going down this chart is Gabby says something really interesting, asked me really interesting question earlier this morning. And when I was driving here that that's what was on my mind. I was like, oh, I bet I'm going to talk about this. And I'm like, at this point, I'm like, Is that still the thing I want to talk about? I thought it was really interesting. I don't know if my thoughts are still as wrapped around it. 

Brian [02:11:43] But maybe you can take a swing. 

Meg [02:11:46] Okay? 

Brian [02:11:48] Or we can do a we can do a rebuttal. And in another week or two, we'll come back in and readdress it, then make a list around to. 

Meg [02:11:55] Yeah, well I think I'm even feel like this is actually where I think at the root of where I'm feeling like a little stuck on moving forward is it's, it's so hilarious and ironic knowing myself that I like we're still back in 2013. Like I haven't gone beyond that in my in my bio because I am a very gentle person. 

Brian [02:12:21] Which makes for great conversations. 

Meg [02:12:23] Really does. 

Brian [02:12:24] It's been awesome. So don't stop that. 

Meg [02:12:26] I thank you. I do try to find my way back and I think I feel like a little bit attached to that. I'm noticing I don't know if I need to be attached to that, but I'm, I'm like, well, we could kind of get into we're like where it kind of ended off was the beginning of my a faith, what I called faith crisis at that time. 

Brian [02:12:44] We how did we end with Genesis? That's not. 

Meg [02:12:47] Right. It was Genesis. Yeah, I almost I almost inserted a, a very Mormon joke there. But I won't I will resist. 

Brian [02:13:03] Now, people are just going to wonder the rest of the. 

Meg [02:13:06] It was just going to be something about honestly, I'm going to be totally honest. It's been a while since I've been a scholar of the Book of Mormon. And so I was just going to be a joke about the end of the Book of Mormon. And I'm really fighting here thinking, is it Moroni or Mormon last? And I don't know. So I the joke can't land because I forgot the punch line. All right. 

Brian [02:13:28] I'd grab my scripture, but. 

Meg [02:13:31] It's nowhere to be found. Yeah. Get some untamed. Yeah. So I could start, I guess, any of the things I could do. Okay, so. 

Brian [02:13:41] 90 day, isn't that strange? How much did you study the scriptures? 

Meg [02:13:45] Oh, my gosh. So much. 

Brian [02:13:47] And tell me you couldn't flip to any scripture in any of your God and just say bum bum, bum, bum, bum. Yeah. And now you can't remember which book was last in the Book of Mormon Crazy. I catch myself on some things like that sometimes too. It's like, Wow, yeah. I still have passwords that are scriptures related because there's colons and numbers and letters and it's great little passwords. I don't remember what the passwords connect to. 

Meg [02:14:14] MM That's how does that feel for you? 

Brian [02:14:16] It's so weird because it's so recent that they're still my passwords, right. But and then I knew them. I mean, I could quote them. I wasn't the great script, Dorian, but I mean, I knew all of that base at 100, right? And I'm like, was that the one about. No, it was the no, it was in. And it's just delightfully important. 

Meg [02:14:39] You tell me. How long? I mean, I don't know if you have like a time line specifically, but like. 

Brian [02:14:46] We want to start on my timeline yet. 

Meg [02:14:47] Well. 

Brian [02:14:48] We just. We're just getting the genesis in yours. 

Meg [02:14:51] Well, what's been like the a little bit of the timeline of like, if you've been nonbeliever or non-practicing or. 

Brian [02:14:57] So my and I'll keep this real short because I've done this on a couple of podcasts, but my faith crisis began when I was in the Bishopric. I was first counselor in the Bishopric, and I've been High Priest group leader for seven years before that and then was in the Bishopric and that was three years ago. 

Meg [02:15:17] Okay. 

Brian [02:15:18] Yeah, I think it's three years ago. That's just crazy. Maybe four. 

Meg [02:15:21] Okay. 

Brian [02:15:22] Which is so recent, but it seems like so forever ago. And I was the last of my family to exit. So I had a really soft landing. My parents aren't members of the church. And, you know, my kids and my wife were out by then and doing their own thing, not like rubbing anybody's nose in it or whatever. 

Meg [02:15:46] Now. 

Brian [02:15:47] Gabby was saying she'll come to support me, and she did for a little bit when I was still in the Bishopric. But she was mostly done by then too. 

Meg [02:15:52] Yeah. 

Brian [02:15:54] Yeah. It seems really recent and I did not be able to remember scriptures that I could quote like that four years ago was like, that's a little crazy. And that would mean that I'm just getting old. 

Meg [02:16:04] But I mean, it's interesting because I didn't I mean, I spent only 23. Well, I mean, it's really hard to say when I really shifted further away. But somewhere mid-twenties years and a lot of that was like childhood and so and not very, very many adult years well entrenched into the church. But also when I was there, I was well entrenched. I was, you know, doing all the things and wanting to do this as a career. And and I just I know all the basic things. And I noticed some people some people really like to, like, say into it all. So that can be up to date on, you know. 

Brian [02:16:51] I have a friend who reads and watches every conference talk still to date. I'm like, Why? Why? He goes, Because I want to know. He says, Right now he has a line. He says, I can't wait for the Bednar administration. I'm going to grab some popcorn and just sit back and enjoy. 

Meg [02:17:09] Yeah. I mean, wow, that's. 

Brian [02:17:11] You can't say that anyway. 

Meg [02:17:14] It's I mean, it's easy to get sucked in with certain things. I'll get wrapped up in certain things. And I may or may not, like, read something or watch something, especially if it's impacting people in my circles. And I think that's really what it is, is why I stay attached to some of the information. 

Brian [02:17:33] But that comes at you. You don't really need to work on that. It comes through your social media. It's like, Oh yeah, this is the thing and everybody is talking about it. Same. 

Meg [02:17:42] Right? And I'm still kind of like I live in Utah County and so sorry. It might move. And so it's very prevalent down there. Yeah. And which I've I have actually really been I like the way I've navigated that. I am really pleased with that for the most part. But I think it's interesting because there is there is a level of scrutiny kind of from the inside and the outside of how well you still know things. Mm hmm. Because I was just kind of processing some thoughts and feelings about me being like, oh, my gosh, I don't remember. Like, I want to say which one I think it is. But then I'm just like, What's the backlash here? Because if I get it wrong, like if I get it wrong, it's like it really doesn't matter in any scheme of things. But it will, it could matter to some people, like if my, I'm assuming my parents won't listen to us and we're just banking on that. So but if they were to my mom and dad, if they were to, they would feel so disappointed. Yeah. That I didn't know that. That it's been so long. They've read my scriptures that I have forgotten. Like I would be disappointed. 

Brian [02:18:56] You forgot your scriptures? 

Meg [02:18:58] Yeah. 

Brian [02:18:58] Like I listened to this conversation. That's what they're going to be disappointed about. 

Meg [02:19:02] Anything. Okay. 

Brian [02:19:03] That was the one that you brought up, though. That was interesting. 

Meg [02:19:06] Yeah, well, the thing is, I could bring it up about basically everything I've already said, like even being on this podcast, I need to speak to them, but I. 

Brian [02:19:13] Have relatives that are feel the same. 

Meg [02:19:15] Way. Yeah, but it just like for and I don't mean necessarily just my parents, but like for like a devout believer and practitioner of the faith, it's there is like this narrative of like, oh, she's been deceived. She stopped following the commandments. And that's why this happened. There is that narrative I'm noticing, like, oh, that's like definitely how it could be perceived. I've forgotten this. But also, I know that while I was. In it. I still like well, I was still trying to make it work for so long. I knew. I still knew all the answers and I was miserable. Yeah. Trying to still read everything and watch everything and be, you know, be everything while it wasn't really working for me and that there's a lot of despair there. And that's, I think, part of the story that a lot of more devout people have a harder time listening to or are really resistant to hearing because it's not their experience. Yeah. 

Brian [02:20:09] But it's not. You ran across something on the Internet and you walk out of the church. No, you prayed about it. You fester about it. 

Meg [02:20:16] You seven years. 

Brian [02:20:17] Because you went to the temple work and all of those things. 

Meg [02:20:21] Years and years. Yeah. And I think that's a part of the story that's really hard to just internalize as a believer because it just goes against what they were taught. Right. And, and that's okay too. I don't need to be accepted by everybody. 

Brian [02:20:39] But they need to they need to make up a story in their head about how you're leaving your leaving the Relief Society President multiple times return missionary BYU grad how your leaving makes sense. 

Meg [02:20:53] Right? 

Brian [02:20:54] They're going to have to grab on to whatever they can grab onto. Right. And it's not going to be flattering for you. Yeah, it's going to be hurtful and it's going to be wrong. But but that's what they're going to have to tell themselves. Yeah. 

Meg [02:21:08] And it might taint my reputation in some people's eyes. And it has. And I'm not really that particularly worried about it because, you know, if they get in a position where their situation changes, I'm visible enough to them that and I think I'm hopefully I come across as a forgiving and nuanced enough person to be able to hold space if they like, actually want to talk to me about my experience, if something changes for them. 

Brian [02:21:32] If they want to talk to you about it. 

Meg [02:21:34] If they want. 

Brian [02:21:35] They can get past all of that. If they want to have the story that says the other thing, they're going to find that, too. 

Meg [02:21:40] So and and my experience and I think this is like kind of the privilege of being younger with, you know, having experienced this in my twenties is a lot of my peers, not all of them, but I do have a lot of Mormon peers who do treat me very well, not that they necessarily agree with everything, but who I still very much enjoy being around. And there are some big differences and certain things like I'm like, well, I'm going to challenge this and I'm going to, you know, whatever. But I don't think it's everybody who puts their own story on to me. I think some people have become, like, nuanced enough to be like, you know, it's actually just not for everyone. I have one of my siblings said that to me when I eventually told her where I was at with church stuff and she was super in but very, you know, more progressive and more nuanced. And she was just like, yeah, I just I've seen enough, but I don't think it's for everyone. And I'm like, okay. And that doesn't mean that the people who kind of view me more that way, or at least communicate with me that way, that doesn't mean they don't have their internal stories to make it make sense. Sure. But even if you have the internal story, kind of like kind of keep that to yourself and treat people well. Yeah, because I this is one of the mirrors is that people like former Mormons or former religious people will define current believers in with just as unhelpful narratives as current believers will define ex Mormons. 

Brian [02:23:14] The whole the whole spectrum on both sides, the very lenient to the very strict. You're going to see it on both sides of the marriage. Yeah, that's true. 

Meg [02:23:21] It's the same thing is I think. Yeah. 

Brian [02:23:25] And maybe I'm this is just, I'm just finding the data to support my belief. But I think the older a person gets, the less likely they are to be nuanced or to see someone else from someone else's perspective possible. 

Meg [02:23:39] But I think people. 

Brian [02:23:41] I think people closer to my age are less likely to come up with an are more likely to come up with a narrative to say, well, this is why they were they wanted to send they were lazy learners or whatever it was. 

Meg [02:23:52] But why do you think that is? 

Brian [02:23:56] I think two things. That's a good question. I think one of them is they've just had more indoctrination. They've just I think the other one is the price for me to be wrong for them is way more I in my fifties when I when I had my crisis, you know, and that's a lot of lifetime of being on the wrong side and being certain that you're not and saying the wrong things to people that came to you for help when and yeah. So I think that's the they're closer to that eternal happiness and I'm not going to risk it on anything. I'm going to if it's not there, it's not there. But I've only got so much time left and I'm not going to mess it up now. But I found it's just it's just the opposite. I found the depression, the anxiety and everything and the shame and the guilt is just it's a beautiful thing to not know. And it's taken a little bit. But I'm shocked at how little some of the things that I knew. I'm shocked at how little it affected me to find out that I didn't understand it. I would have thought not knowing what happens after you die would have been a big kick in the butt. And I'm more comfortable with not knowing now than I was before, knowing for a certainty. I can't explain that. 

Meg [02:25:15] I, I feel actually pretty similar to that. And I also know people who have a lot of existential dread after they don't have that surety. It's I've seen I've seen both. I'm really glad that I mean, it's obviously relieving that that's your experience because it's less stressful, it's less scary. 

Brian [02:25:36] And it also makes life more beautiful and happier. It's like, well, just don't wait until you die to be happy. 

Meg [02:25:44] And. 

Brian [02:25:44] Be happy today in the moment, now and then take advantage of today. And the people that are around, you said are trying to make them all be perfect, make sure there aren't any empty chairs. On the other hand, if that's your belief, that's so hard to know that you've done everything right and that there's going to be empty chairs at your family table because someone made a simple choice when they could have just what they pretended to believe and it would. That would have been better. I don't know. Yeah, that's painful. 

Meg [02:26:11] Really painful. One of my siblings. 

Brian [02:26:13] But, you know, at the table we're sitting at tonight for dinner, this table, we're all here. So can we just enjoy this? Right? Can we just let this be enough instead of worrying about what? I don't know. Sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt. 

Meg [02:26:25] It makes me think of one of my siblings a few years ago made a choice that was quite in opposition to church teachings and my family is dysfunctional and that was a really good example of it. I'll just share. One thing of it is one of my parents said to the sibling that they were ruining our chances to have an eternal family. And that's the kind of narrative and it's based in fear. And I guess I can have compassion to you. That's what you believe. And then someone makes a different choice, the sins or whatever you believe. And that's going to be one of the empty chairs. That's terrifying, if in your mind, haven't supposed to be this perfect, every family member at the table thing, and then all of a sudden one of your children is not doing that or multiple. And that has to be so scary. And I can I think I can really empathize with that because I believe that before and then kind of coming to this other perspective where in really most of my siblings rallied around this sibling of like let's protects them because we know our parents are really going to cut quite a scene about this and really do some damage to the point where the sibling cut them off for a time. And I can have like a lot of compassion to like the fear of losing your family in heaven where you think things will be happy and perfect. So really a scary thought. 

Brian [02:27:54] But you brought up an interesting point is, is fear what you want to be your operational base for throughout this whole life? 

Meg [02:28:00] That's the thing. It's an awful way to live. And frankly, a lot of us are living that way anyway just because of trauma, because of oppression, because of ourselves. You know, there's just a million things that that keep us in survival and keep us in kind of a fear mode. But it's a really taxing way to live. 

Brian [02:28:17] Yeah, well, if you're not living in some degree of fear, you're just really not paying attention to. I mean, there's yeah. 

Meg [02:28:24] Yeah. It's wild how many places our brain can go. Like, it's scary and we help people and, you know, like. 

Brian [02:28:33] Well, it's just funny how many different places a conversation can go, right? I love it. I love these. 

Meg [02:28:40] Notes. It's great to remember really where we came from, trying to backtrack. 

Brian [02:28:44] Or have to connect it. 

Meg [02:28:45] Okay. 

Brian [02:28:46] I mean, you were still kind of back in Genesis. 

Meg [02:28:49] Yeah, we got. 

Brian [02:28:50] Past I don't know if we in Exodus Leviticus numbers. Deuteronomy. 

Meg [02:28:54] Oh we were talking about how I couldn't remember the end of the Mormon. Wow that your memory. Well you start naming different books in the Bible, so it just kind of sparked that. But yeah, we'll see. We'll see if we actually get to the end or not. 

Brian [02:29:10] But up to present day. 

Meg [02:29:12] Yeah. 

Brian [02:29:13] Hey, we don't that's. Yeah, that's okay too. 

Meg [02:29:14] Yeah. So I guess, like, this whole thing will be mobile the entire just the whole my life story. I love it. Oh, yeah. So I guess, like, maybe, maybe I'll just try to catch up to speed. I have a crisis of faith which turned into kind of like a revival of self. Never said that Allah before. Never even saw that in my head, I don't think. But I think that's more or less what has become. And that is. Like seven year long story. I mean, eight at this. I I've been feeling really confident about where I'm at for years now, but I'm also always changing. Sure. And so I don't really have maybe there's the book is still unwritten like there's still there's still chapters. Yeah. So I, I had this, this whole experience while I was trying to finish my undergrad while I was sick, eventually stopped being sick. I did an internship in Denver, which I loved, which was very formative with some of my faith crisis related things. And I did. I came back for my last year at BYU, and at that point I was pretty I was pretty sure I didn't believe anymore. That was my last year BYU, which is like pretty stifling to be there with that in mind. But a lot of people do that for a lot longer than I did. But I graduated BYU in 2018, which was huge for me because it took me a lot of extra time compared to other people, just myself. 

Brian [02:30:50] That every time people know it's okay. 

Meg [02:30:52] Yeah. And, and I learned things that other people didn't learn because of my, my experience. And I also wouldn't wish that upon other people I know that I, you know, worked really hard to learn good lessons, but it sucked. Yeah. Yeah, a lot of a lot of that sucked a lot. So I did eventually get better. It was only six for three years. I was probably start getting well about when I went to Denver, which was summer 2017, graduating in 2018 and as a graduation present to myself, I did go dip a little bit into debt to go on a study abroad to the South Pacific. Nice. And I spent like six or seven weeks abroad in Fiji and New Zealand and Australia, which is very cool. One of the best things I've ever done and met one of my best friends there, and that helped me gain more confidence in how I, how I felt about life and my beliefs, because he was never really particularly connected to Mormonism and was cool with where I was. Which you don't find that a lot of BYU? Yeah, I tried to seek that in some people and do a lot of like scared of you. I'm not going to talk to you about that, right? Yeah. But then, yes, I did that study abroad that summer after I graduated and landed a job that fall doing relationship education as like a guest speaker with a program in Utah and teaching like parenting and marriage and dating, which I did that for a few years. And in a lot of ways I really loved that. And it was super fulfilling. And I was I wasn't my own boss, but I was had a lot of kind of freedom to do a lot of what I wanted and to make it my own. Not so. McMahon, but go where I wanted. And eventually I shifted out of that and into my own private practice, which I do now called grow, with my guiding relationships in overall wellness. And I'm like really proud of it. It's been this very unexpected, big life shift that I, I did not know I was going to be a business owner. Like, I didn't just there were so many unknowns and I just like, I guess I embrace the unknown. So we'll see where life takes me. Like, I thought by now I'd be in beautiful philosophy. No, I mean, seriously. 

Brian [02:33:14] Instead of what are you can do five years from now? About ten years from now? How about 50? 

Meg [02:33:17] Okay. 

Brian [02:33:18] Let me get through this week. 

Meg [02:33:19] Yeah, yeah. Now my goals aren't important and I'm just like, hypothetically, one day, like, look, do a TED Talk. Like, I'd love to start a, you know, a national conversation about the importance of the preventative care of our relationships. And let's make our relationships healthy and let's do that before they get unhealthy. And that's really everything that I do, not everything that I do, but it's a big focus of what I do professionally, and I'm really passionate about that. And so, look, I do want I do have some like markers and some goals and like maybe if I were a little more like rigid with this is what I want to have this done by maybe I'd kick my ass into gear and like actually get those ones done. But in my experience I was will set. Like I'll be like, Oh, this is what my life will look like. And then I'll take so many turns that are quite inevitable and be like, Oh, I didn't even know that they were going to be these other opportunities. Right? And so I kind of I'm just I'm more content being like, well, this is where I am now. And yeah, I have some hypothetical goals, but I'm not going to cling so tightly to them that my life can't change in a direction that I would actually prefer that I don't know about. Yeah. Mm hmm. That's kind of more of where I am. And I. That's me. That's, like, big learning curve of changing my relationship with the church, changing my relationship with my family system, or at least getting distance with both of those things. 

Brian [02:34:37] And I how do you feel in that space? 

Meg [02:34:41] It's like a little scary because it's like, unknown and as much like, step as many steps that are like lit up. Yeah, but it's kind of empowering to know that, like, my life could change really at any moment. And frankly, I'm going through a lot of flux right now and I will be able to handle that. And I'm not going to be so attached to what I've had in the past that I can't embrace what's coming. 

Brian [02:35:06] That that's a huge key. I love that that someone made a comment this week and they said, oh, that. He said that's future Justin's problem. Mhm. And I'm like, yeah and that's great. And you know, a future Justin can handle that. 

Meg [02:35:18] Mm hmm. 

Brian [02:35:19] And today Justin is working on this and but that is so empowering to say, I don't know where this will go, but I know future Meg will. She'll take care. She'll kick its butt. 

Meg [02:35:30] Right. Or else it's all sound around. And if I don't want. Yeah. 

Brian [02:35:34] That's right. If she gets there and she doesn't want to, she'll turn. 

Meg [02:35:36] Yeah, I'm kind of in this new phase of life where I historically, I feel like I have, you know, hustled to be worthy in other people's eyes, in my religion, XYZ, all these things, and been desperate to win other people's approval. And I think that's like speaking a little bit too broadly. Like I'm a very like have historically been a very feisty type of boat rocker type of person, even as like a, I mean, just even in my upbringing. So that's a little bit overarching of a statement. But I do I do notice myself now leaning a lot more into, you know, I don't really need your acceptance in your approval. I want to see if this works for me before I worry if it works for you. Like, I don't want to I want to already know, like, kind of my I don't know if standard is, like, the word I want to use, but like where I'm at, I don't I don't really want to come down and just accept breadcrumbs. And I'm, I'm meaning that like with dating, I'm meaning now with I'm doing that professionally where I live, the people that I'm around, that I surround myself by, the organizations I might volunteer for or work for, like I am so much less willing to stay in places where I'm just like, This is close, but it's not really there. Like, I don't want to stay in those spaces anymore because I just have the sense that everything that I want exists. It might take some extra effort to find it, but that effort's worth it if I get to be my full self there and I don't want to just pick up the crown of a dating partner and I don't want to pick up the crowns of a boss I don't like I don't I don't want to, like, cling on to things and feel like, oh, I really hope that I'm going to be good enough for this. I would rather already feel good enough and be like, What do you have to offer me? Yeah, like I was at a conference work related conference recently, and I'm noticing a lot of the programs that I was interacting with do not align with my values, which is a huge reason why my last job and I were not going to see it through. And I I'm sitting there thinking about how I used to be like, I think I could put up with that. Like, I like I'll go in there and I will rock the boat and I will make a difference and maybe their program will change and maybe it'll be slow and that'll be worth it. And I'm like, Yeah, there are programs that are already at your standard. You don't have to go in there and rock the boat. Mm hmm. That's a boat that like. And it needs to be rocked. But I'm just like, I would rather sit down and be like, oh, like, do you support and like, how do you keep, you know, any non hetero, like, nontraditional relationships in mind when doing your programing. Yeah. And if they don't have an answer for me that sounds B.S. to be in. Yeah. And, and I'm not like I might grieve like I said them is harder, but I'm not bummed that I'm not there. Mm hmm. 

Brian [02:38:52] Because you don't want to be there. 

Meg [02:38:54] I don't want to be there. Like, I'd rather be somewhere who's like, Oh, yeah, we have this in mind, and this is what we do, and this is how we do intersectionality and this is how we do it. Like, I don't want to feel like I'm the one who's the best at that where I am. I want to be places where I'm learning and people are already like total bad asses in that arena. Yeah. And so that's kind of more of what I'm looking for now is like believing that like I've been saying this a lot recently, the world is my oyster because I'm having to relocate from my landlady needs to take over her apartment. And so I'm moving and I'm just like, you know, I could do really anything right now. And we'll see where that takes me. And I'm, you know, I'm worried and I've shed tears about it and I see, like, what I might lose because of this. Which is really sad. I've been grieving a lot. 

Brian [02:39:43] But what a great intersection to be at. 

Meg [02:39:46] Yeah. 

Brian [02:39:46] I mean, how many more times are you going to be at an intersection where you are this free and independent with this many options? Right. Exactly. Quite a few more. Yeah, but it doesn't happen all the time. 

Meg [02:39:58] Yeah. 

Brian [02:39:59] You're usually tied to a lease or a relationship or a job or something, and you have to say, Jeez, looking pretty good right now. I think people there might need some relationship education. 

Meg [02:40:09] Like some resort can do some. 

Brian [02:40:11] Yeah, well, I could do some decent, you know, counseling and decent coaching. 

Meg [02:40:16] Oh, yeah, right. Yeah. 

Brian [02:40:18] If my background of the Fiji waters isn't distracting you. 

Meg [02:40:23] That would be amazing. 

Brian [02:40:25] I can get a backdrop of some like boring office if it makes you feel better. 

Meg [02:40:29] But yeah. 

Brian [02:40:30] I am still going to sit here in my swimsuit because I'm going to go swimming with the dolphins in about 20 minutes. 

Meg [02:40:39] Yeah. Good for you. Thank you. That's awesome. Yeah, we'll see what happens. And I'm just not I am. You know, I'm aware and I'm worried about what might happen and how this is going to change my life and all these things. And I'm not so attached to the outcome because I know I can always change my situation and I will always change my mind and I can always change my beliefs and. 

Brian [02:40:59] You know, want to put future Meg into a corner. Either I want to give her a gift. Right. You want to put her in the best possible situation, but not at the expense of of today, Meg. 

Meg [02:41:09] Yeah. 

Brian [02:41:10] So and like you said, you there's something out there already, not only better, but there's something out there that's best. And it's your job to go find it. And if you don't find it, keep. 

Meg [02:41:17] Looking your ring and some good, better bass bells for me. 

Brian [02:41:21] Good. 

Meg [02:41:21] Well, do you know. Do you know what I'm referencing? That's a talk by one of the general authorities whose name I will not. So it's not good? No. I mean, it's it's funny that that's what came up for me, because while I did forget some things about the Book of Mormon, I did not forget that topic. Yeah. 

Brian [02:41:36] Now, I was starting to. I was trying to remember. Yeah, but they don't have ownership of that. 

Meg [02:41:43] Data and they. 

Brian [02:41:44] Don't have the lock on happiness or. 

Meg [02:41:46] Oh, certainly not. So I really thought there was, you know, an organization that had the monopoly on truth and happiness. And I realized everyone has that inside themselves. That's what I currently believe. Yeah. 

Brian [02:41:59] Awesome. And until you don't. Right? Yeah. Until I decided to. Something different. And I'm always looking open for suggestions. 

Meg [02:42:05] Yeah. There's a book that I haven't read that I don't know, it's called. But my friend told me about it and let me the book and it's about well, what I remember what she described of it was that it's about three different values that people prioritize in different ways. And it's goodness, beauty and truth. And to think about what do you value the most? And my experience is that it doesn't matter so much what people believe, whether it's true or not, so long as it's not hurting anybody. But it does matter what they do with their beliefs, which is why I hold my beliefs so loosely. I think it's part of why I. I believe in goodness way more than I believe in truth, though I think you can be good even if you believe things that are totally untrue. Which helps me to be compassionate to people all around the world who believe vastly different things. Because I see the goodness in me. The efforts of people win the hearts of people. And I, I think that matters. And I see, I see certain groups do things that are wonderful with their beliefs. And I see certain groups do things that are like in those same groups do terrible things. And I and based on the same truths. And I just I think that matters so much less to me. And it's, it's ordered very different for everyone. But for me right now, I think that goodness is what I, what I value. And I think beauty is really important, too, because I'm one of those people who, like, I pull off on the side of the road when there's like a sense of that's making me cry. I'm one of those people. And so I would prioritize both of those things over truth. And I think one thing I've noticed is in phase transition, especially when people feel pretty duped, when people feel pretty betrayed by having inaccurate information, there is an emphasis, a value on truth. My experience with Faith Transition wasn't based in church history or anything, so I didn't have that experience. And I think that experience is really valid and I know it's super common, but I think because of that, I see it's a lot easier for me to see or to value the goodness over the truth. 

Brian [02:44:20] And I've been questioning why those three because the one that popped up in my head, one of the first things is connection. 

Meg [02:44:26] Mm hmm. Yeah. 

Brian [02:44:27] I don't know if that fits in one of those three or not. I have to read the book and figure out what the book is and read it. 

Meg [02:44:31] But I can't lend you them because it's my friends by yourself. Yeah. 

Brian [02:44:35] As you can see, I don't mind buying books. 

Meg [02:44:37] Yeah, great collection. 

Brian [02:44:43] We want to take a quick break. 

Meg [02:44:44] Sure. 

Brian [02:44:44] Let's take a quick break and then we'll come back and see what else we need to talk about. 

Meg [02:44:49] Okay. Awesome. 

Brian [02:44:51] Thank you for listening to Strangers You Know. If you're enjoying our conversations, please share us with a friend. Continue the conversation by sharing and liking on Facebook and social media, or, for exclusive content and detailed show notes, visit our website at www.StrangersYouKnowPodcast.com where you can subscribe to our newsletter or make a donation to support the show. Thank you for your support.