Meg G (Part Two) - Mama Bear

Episode: 114 - Meg G (Part 2) “Mama Bear”

INTRO MUSIC

Meg [00:00:04] That has really impacted the way that I see self-love. I was taught not to love myself. You love God. And that's all. And you hate yourself. You know, I started learning more about self-love, and I started untangling some of the loathing that I had just been so accustomed to. Self-love can be defined with two different parts, and one of them is self-compassion. And this is the one like being soft and gentle and forgiving your inner child, kind of giving yourself a break and being neutral toward your imperfections. And that's really the only version of self-love that I thought existed. The other part of self-love is a fierce version where you protect yourself. I feel so strongly about this. I'm like getting emotional and self-compassion was just like the bears cuddling and just a very warm, gentle, you know. And then the other one was like, Mama Bear. And like, I've resonated with Mama Bear for a long time because I've kind of historically been the person who stands up for the underdog and can I be fierce and very upfront about my boundaries? But this part of self-love that I'm really starting to lean into is, yeah, you are allowed to show up big and loud and fierce for yourself and be like, No, I'm not taking your shit. And I'm like, Oh my gosh, I can love myself in a not just a gentle way, but in a way. I don't mean to say like aggressive, but is being like I'm literally what I'm doing right now is I'm expanding my shoulders. 

Brian [00:01:22] As aggressive as necessary. 

Meg [00:01:24] Yeah. Not this, like, sweet cowering. Right. And I don't mean self-love is cowering or self-compassion is cowering, but that the version of self-love that I love is. 

Brian [00:01:32] Always soft and sweet. Right? It doesn't have claws out. Sometimes it does. 

Meg [00:01:36] And I really want to have both. But right now, I've been more particularly leaning into the kind of love that has claws out. 

MUSIC 

Brian [00:01:47] Welcome back. In part two of my conversation with Meg, we dove a little deeper into her area of expertise, namely relationships, preventative care of relationships, and high risk factors that challenge relationships. We also talk about awakening, especially to privilege as well as the importance of exploring self, including sexual identity. Other topics include self-care, intersectionality and our relationship with anger and how our feelings lead us to action, both for better and for worse. Oh, and Meg almost tells us another joke. Thanks for joining us on strangers, you know? So we talked about you were against early marriage. We talked a little bit about that. We can talk a little bit more about comfort with discomfort and ambiguity. That's always an interesting topic or if you have more to say on that, or if we've already kind of addressed both of those. 

MUSIC

Brian [00:02:36] And then I've got two other questions for you. If you want to talk about either of those, or should we just kind of I. 

Meg [00:02:40] Mean, if we talk about the first one, so I might go a little. Relationship science crazy. Like it's great that. 

Brian [00:02:48] That that's who you are, though. That's what you bring to the table. Right. So, yeah, I think that's fascinating. 

Meg [00:02:52] Yeah. 

Brian [00:02:52] If we left without bringing that up, I mean, I would feel bad our listeners got cheated. 

Meg [00:02:58] I can talk about it, though. I mean, I'm just passionate about relationships and healthy relationships. The data shows that, you know, we are the most happy and actually, in fact, we live the longest if we have healthy relationships. And that is a predictive factor more than any other factor, including like how you take care of your body. And if you use substance, your quality of connections with other people in your life, whether it's romantic or familial or not, the quality of your relationships impact your longevity and your happiness throughout your lifetime more than any other factor. And so that seems pretty big to me. Yeah. 

Brian [00:03:39] And biggest rate. 

Meg [00:03:40] Yeah. Feels like the biggest. Yeah. Says it's the biggest. So I think you know, if we want a high quality of life and high quality relationships going to impact that, why not spend my life doing that? Mm hmm. And so that's kind of what I decided going into my career. 

Brian [00:03:58] Is that how you chose your major, or is that what you learned while you were already studying that? 

Meg [00:04:03] No, probably not. Why I chose that, I this is hard to say. I remember like a very specific, like meeting with a school counselor at the university to, like, look through me. 

Brian [00:04:14] You got to pick a major. The only way I can get out of here is if you pick something like I need help. Throw a dart I don't like. 

Meg [00:04:22] And at that time, I was like, I guess I have to have a major, but I really want to be a teacher. So what goes well with this? And then I probably told that counselor, my three biggest passions are, you know, teaching and the gospel and people and they're like, well, here are all the people. FIELDS And they showed me psychology and sociology and human development and family life and all these things. And so that's how I got exposed to it. And I mean, when I heard about family life and human development, I was like, Oh yeah, that's my thing. I care about this a lot, which was heavily influenced by knowing that I didn't have healthy relationships growing up with my family and not wanting to perpetuate that for posterity. And that's when I was very attached to the idea of needing posterity, and that's what my purpose was. And those mindsets, I don't really exist within those constructs anymore. But maybe I will have a family. Maybe. Well, maybe I will marry your partner. Or maybe I won't. Yeah, I'm not as attached to those things anymore, but I wanted to at the time, I really wanted to learn how to do my future family better, so I'd better learn about it. And then I'm just like, Oh, like I can change and I can break out of, you know, these unhealthy systems and change how I interact with people and not just repeat patterns from what I saw. And so maybe I can help other people do that. And so that's really where my passion really kind of where that came from. And then like as a developed in my academia and my career, more things like and this is the thing that helps us be the happiest. Yeah. And I think that's really significant. And so I'm really grateful that I was drawn to it in the first place. 

Brian [00:06:06] So what are the things that you would tell someone who was getting down at BYU at 20 years old looking to get married? What are the things you would tell them about before you make that decision? 

Meg [00:06:18] Yeah, that's a really good question. So I think one important thing to remember is that there is really no right or wrong way, but there are higher risk and lower risk decisions when it comes to relationships, especially when you're forming relationships, especially when they're romantic and could lead to really serious commitments with another human being. I think that's really important to know is that I don't think there is a right or wrong way to go about this. I don't think it's connected to morality, but I do see it, statistically speaking, connected to our outcomes of how happy we are and how long we live even. And I think that's significant. And I think that's the first thing I would say to a student or to a young person considering getting serious with someone really quickly is there's no right or wrong way to go about this. But there are high risk things to do and there are low risk things you could choose and it might be worth learning about what those are. Okay. And so that's really my foundation because I think we use a lot of shame and. Times in the in life in general, but in the relationship sector of like this is what you must do. And I don't come at it from that angle because, you know, the data can say some things and I don't really think we should operate under that. I'm the exception. But people, I'm a professional and I'm expert in this area and also people know their own selves better than I could ever. And while I hope that they would look at the data and hopefully it would impact their life, I'm not so attached to being right. This is coming back to some of the things were talking about. I'm not so attached to being right and they're not there being special circumstances or whatever that everyone needs to follow this exact right. That's just it's the antithesis. It's exactly what I believed before about my religion. And I just I don't resonate with that belief anymore. So I apply it to my field. But that being said, there are high risk, high risk behaviors within forming romantic relationships. And one of them is jumping really quickly into commitment with another person, because it takes a lot of effort and a lot of communication and seeing someone in a lot of different scenarios and also a lot of time to actually see what a person's like. And so when you're partner selecting and you're really wrapped up in an entire chemical flood, that makes it feel like this person right in front of you is like your one and only. It's a really normal chemical reaction and it's basically the biological explanation of love is blind. Yeah, yeah. And it's really easy when we're in that state of mind that is clouding our cognitive functioning of decision making to choose someone who is not a good match for us or who is unhealthy. 

Brian [00:09:04] So if I'm hearing it correctly, that the chemicals in the hardwiring of moving quickly into a relationship overpower your ability to know yourself, as you say, that you know yourself, you know what's best for you. But right now your self is saying this is the one, this is the way you need to give that enough time. Right. And let that normalize a little bit to say this is just your hard wiring. This is the chemicals that are telling you this. This isn't you knowing yourself. This is. 

Meg [00:09:30] Right. I mean, we can look at brain imaging and we see that when people are first, quote unquote, falling in love or like feeling really infatuated, that there's a major influx of certain endorphins and chemicals that impact decision making. Yeah. And that suppresses neural activity in the logic center of our brain. And so in I think, yes, what you're saying is true, but because of this influx, not because we fall fast and not then there's nothing wrong with this influx. This is like normative. Everyone's experiencing this. I don't think we need to shame ourselves for like falling in love quickly or really feeling totally infatuated with someone. But I think is really important to know that's happening to your brain so you can kind of pump the brakes and not that there's anything more about whether or not you do pump the brakes. If you fall head over heels and you're both so into it and you get married after a few weeks or whatever it is, that's high risk. And I'm not going to shame that. Sure. I'm going to advocate that you put protect other protective measures in place to help that. Okay. So for people maybe listening, like do what you're going to do and I'm not going to shame you for that. And also know that if you are doing something that puts you in a more high risk category and we all have high risk things, even if it's not that we rush into a relationship when because we all have risk in our relationships, whether you come from a dysfunctional home, that's a great example of risk, a risk factor, or you have different just different things that impact your life that are going to make relationships harder. If that is the case for you, there are loads of things that you could proactively do to protect your health of self and the health of the relationships that you form. And that's what I advocate for more than just like doing it right. And if you have any risk factors, don't do the thing. Yeah, yeah. It's okay to want connection. That's, I think that's what life is about. Yeah. And so. 

Brian [00:11:29] Just be aware of. 

Meg [00:11:30] It, be aware of that and be proactive. I mean I would hope people are proactive like no, we really are rushing into this relationship and we've known each other for less than a year and maybe we should, and I would advocate for any couple to do this, but maybe we should go get some pre-marital education or counseling would be great idea. Put some put some preventative measures in place to protect your relationship because there are a lot of protection factors that can, I think, balance risk factors. And I don't think we need to be so afraid of risk factors. But if there are ones that we can prevent, might be worth looking into. And I think one of the biggest ones that we fall into that we can prevent that can help us avoid unnecessary hurt and harm to ourselves and to other people we partner with is slowing down the pace of our relationship. Not in a noncommittal sense, like loyalty can be a really important factor. And I think if we can, that commitment phobia is a whole other conversation. But I think in the sense of taking our time to really get to know who a person is and kind of in that same sense I was talking about, like for me personally, when I'm in a phase of dating, I'm not so necessarily looking to be liked. I'm looking to like someone. I want to make sure that I actually genuinely see this person as a good person and as a good partner, a good fit for me and as a healthy person. And instead of being like, Oh no, what if they see my flaws? Or like, what if I don't impress them? That is, I think that is a really easy thing that we can kind of get caught up in, especially and I don't know if this is a young thing or just a human thing, but we are quite worried as humans about what other people think of us. And I think there's a lot of normalcy to that. And I think when you're choosing to partner with someone, I would advocate that you be more concerned about, if you like the other person compared to if they like you like if they don't like you, don't be with them. Don't want to be with someone you don't like that doesn't like you and that forms codependency. Yeah, that's a whole other thing as well. But, but to prioritize knowing the person that you might commit to, knowing them deeply and knowing, knowing if they're these two things I think always stick out to me, knowing if they're healthy and knowing if they're a good fit, a good match. It takes a lot of time to figure that out. It takes a lot of really intentional, meaningful conversations. It takes seeing them in loads of situations. And I think we get caught up in the romance of things and in the passion of things that we end up going really fast and really far with relying on each other with physical and sexual intimacy, with commitment. We really get engrossed in these relationships just to have sometimes a rude awakening a few months in be like, Oh my gosh, this is not actually what I signed up for. And now that I'm kind of releasing the real person, not the person that they were kind of fronting for, just like, I realize this isn't a good fit, but now they're all the way in love with me and I'm kind of not really feeling it because I actually learned about more who of who they actually are because we had our blinders up and we know from the data that the blinders go down. They start to go down around three months in of kind of really feeling all the chemical highs of liking someone. But we also know that it takes another 6 to 8 months for you to level out. And what I see at BYU and another lot of just kind of in general, it's not as widely accepted to Russian relationships and Russian to marriages as it is at somewhere like BYU. But what I see is people marrying within six months or less than a year. And according to the data that I know, that means they're still on a chemical high. Mm hmm. And that's a really life altering decision to make, while especially if you're young and your brain is not fully developed, which doesn't happen until I mean, data was saying mid-twenties, but it's probably closer to 30. Mm hmm. And what while they're really young and while they are very new to each other, and while there's a lot of pressure around forming a family and being in a relationship and having an eternal contingency plan. Yeah. 

Brian [00:15:45] And there's a lot of pressure to like, okay, well, how long have you been dating? Well, what's next? What's next? What it's like? What's next is we keep dating. There's no engagement, there's no wedding, there's no whatever. I mean, until we're ready for it. But people want to know, is she the one? I don't know. 

Meg [00:16:01] Right. What? 

Brian [00:16:02] I know it's been three months. It's been six months. And then there's the pressures like, well, if this isn't the right person, no, I'm wasting my time. Do I need to? 

Meg [00:16:11] And there is such a in the Mormon culture, there is this idea that, like, if you're past your mid twenties, you're a quote unquote menace to society. And so if that is the narrative in your head, then there is a finish line, you better get to it pretty quick. 

Brian [00:16:27] And how many possible relationships could you even have between. 

Meg [00:16:31] Right. 

Brian [00:16:32] When you get to college and you're mid-twenties, till you're a menace to society, that you're completely past your prime. 

Meg [00:16:38] And add in a couple years for a mission, you're. 

Brian [00:16:41] Right. And then your brain's not developed yet and fully developed. 

Meg [00:16:45] And I did recently come across some data that says unless like teen marriages, the data on that is the outcomes in the divorce rate. They're not great. And so I'm also like in the situation like that, if that's the thing that has happened or is about to happen, protective factors are way more needed wherever there's more risk. Right. But what the data shows is that young twenties, marital relationships compared to getting married older, like later twenties and thirties, it's pretty normative time to have a first marriage. There's not a huge difference on marital satisfaction, and I'm not sure if they have the data out there for if these couples divorce, because I'm not sure it's been long enough for them to see that. Yeah. 

Brian [00:17:33] Well, I'm glad you brought up the determining factor of marriage satisfaction as opposed to whether or not they're still married. Right. A lot of people don't get divorced. Right. And they're miserable. 

Meg [00:17:44] Right. And that is very true. And like this is a really complicated when you bring in other things like you weren't who I thought you know, you were who you knew you were when you aren't who you were when we got married. Of course not. Which. Which is? Yeah, of course not. But then sometimes it's also some huge fundamental things that people are figuring out when they're. They're gaining identity, which your decade of your twenties. There's all sorts of new young adult research as like a developmental time frame that didn't used to be studied because it was mostly irrelevant. Most people, you know, in later, I mean, that the average age for marriage has to has increased significantly over the last century or two. And in a lot of ways, that can be advantageous. And there are some downfalls to that as well. Mm hmm. And I think part of it is just, like, kind of weighing that, but also you don't fully get to choose. So I was a kind of person when I was younger that I was like, I'll be married and I'm 30 or not, and I'm actually very okay with that at this point. But I, like none of my peers, were okay with that. And so I kind of wasn't totally either. 

Brian [00:18:55] Well, yeah. And now your peers that you've been peers with for so long, they are married and some of them may even have kids. And you're not it's like, well, we're not peers anymore and we have nothing in common right now. Yeah, that's difficult. 

Meg [00:19:06] And it's interesting you say that because I have a lot of friends who are married who I still feel like we're all just individuals and humans. And if someone can't be my friend because I'm single, or if I can't be their friend because they're married, I'm just like, that sounds like a lot of codependence within the relationship that they can't differentiate from their relationship enough to be my friend. 

Brian [00:19:26] Yeah, but I understand that. I guess I look at the fact that bedtime is a certain time and that they're doing different things on the weekend and there are barriers and your time, your times to be socially active are probably different than their times of day. And so they might want to catch a matinee because the kids sleep in, you know? I mean. 

Meg [00:19:45] Right, totally. So there are definitely barriers to those relationships. And that being said, there, I have a lot of peers who are not currently married and maybe never married or maybe divorced. I know people who have been married multiple times and divorced multiple times. I know I have friends my age who have been widowed like I and I'm 30 and these are my peers. And life kind of just goes, yeah, and, and when, you know, you lose all your friends to marriage, which is this whole thing at BYU is like, Oh, you're never going to see them again because they're married. I'm just like, We can challenge that idea. I think we can challenge that idea, yeah. And maintain our friendships. Because one of the things we know about the data is that typically in divorce men compared to women, if we're talking about heterosexual relationships, men will have a harder time, especially socially, in a divorce compared to women, because women tend to keep their social networks more than men. Men might have a group that they play poker or video games or something with, but they don't prioritize like guys nights out or whatever. And women will like, Let's go, I'll do something and let's be in a book club or whatever. And that's a very binary black and white way to look at it. What we see in the data that's more and more common that women will maintain their social networks, and so they have a support system to lean on if they do get divorced compared to men don't often. Usually their support system becomes their spouse. Yeah. And so that can be a lot more difficult to navigate, like social isolation. 

Brian [00:21:21] Yeah. This is a fascinating field of study. I'm just as we're having this discussion, I'm just all these questions that just keep coming up that I want to ask different. Well, first of all, some of the stupid some of the questions are pretty silly. What do you think of when you're watching like The Bachelor? I kind of interested in what goes through your mind when you're watching stuff like that. I'm interested to know what the research says on same sex relationships and if there's significant differences there. I'm interested to know non-monogamous relationships and through couples and things like that. And so I'm just kind of curious. I don't know. I mean, this is a fascinating time to be study and all that. But I'm also thinking, well, it is fascinating, but there's no data. I mean, it hasn't been recorded and that's been tracked. So we're still guessing. 

Meg [00:22:08] Yeah, in some ways we really are. So most of the data that's been collected historically is all based on hetero relationships. And there. There is some data that does focus on queer non-monogamous relationships. And if I'm really transparent, a lot of the people in my field tend to be and not all of them, but a lot of the people in my field tend to be conservative and religious and really focus on the family. And that kind of makes sense. Religious people often have a lot of emphasis on family, which is a beautiful and positive thing, and that creates a little bit of a bias within the research that's done sometimes. So I'll look at some of the data and I see a little bit of like confirmation bias happening and I'm concerned about that. It's not as much as it was when I was in school. And so I know I've missed I don't know if I'm all the way up to date on all the data, but there is data on I mean, it's sparse and so it's not definitive, but there is data on other relationships. I think what it comes down to, while there are very unique challenges with relationships outside of the traditional hetero couple. From my perspective, what it does come down to is that relationship skills are transferable and the most important skills and mentalities that positively impact the relationships that you have the most are going to work for hetero couple, the queer couple, the polyamorous couple, like they'll work for everyone. Now there are unique challenges and things to figure out with an open relationship for sure. And because of those things some of the data says like that becomes really complicated. You have to be extra skilled to be able to skilled relationally, to be able to navigate the challenges that come with that. But it does. The data that I've seen doesn't often go more into depth on the benefits of other relationships, and I find that to be problematic because who's to say, like who's making the call on if that benefit does or does not outweigh the risks, which there definitely are, and the challenges and the extra things you have to navigate. But who's making this call? The shots on that. 

Brian [00:24:41] Right. And some of like you say, some of the potential benefits are things that couldn't have even possibly been tracked before. So you have no data on any of it. And so you're not even thinking of tracking it. You can't even see it as a benefit because you've never thought of it as a benefit. You never tracked it as a benefit. 

Meg [00:24:56] Yeah. And internal bias means yeah. So I think this is where I think the data is so important and I really think we should look at the science. And if we have relationship science, why are we not using it in our day to day lives? I think it's so important if it impacts our lives so much and our happiness and how long we live. And I do think there is something to say about yes, of course, internally I like collect the data, but you don't have to internalize all of it. Like you do not have to live within the data because the data will keep changing. That is science. And so if you kind of know that your relationship so this is a I think a really big example. There are a lot of relationships that I'm seeing, especially in the post-Mormon world, that one of the partners comes out as we're usually it's well, but the thing that I see most often in my circle is a hetero relationship with a bi wife and her husband has like bi with energy and it's like this really great thing. And a lot of times if they've been raised in such a closed system and they were never like allowed or gave themselves permission because of how they were conditioned to explore that part of their sexuality, they feel like they've really missed out on something, and it's a lot more complicated than just what I'm saying. But I see a lot of not that this is what needs to happen, but I do see couples saying, let's open up this relationship because I think my spouse deserves the chance to explore her sexuality and to know herself more and to really connect with who she is authentically and who is any researcher, which frankly is like a scholarly, like educated, white, straight, conservative, usually Christian or religious man, usually who's calling the shots on this? Who are they to say that relationship's not going to benefit from that right. And that I'm no person to say that, like I'm going to support what, you know, intrinsically is best for you. I'll tell you the data, but also I'll tell you the data that like I'll tell you that the data is not necessarily robust in those areas. And I think that matters. I think people should have informed consent on all of that, like, hey, here's what could happen this. Might actually blow up or maybe, you know, whatever. Like some of the data says, these families experience this or that. But I was in classes that this frustrated me so much. I was in a class that I was really grateful that BYU did expose me to like I feel like a whole day of class that was like, here's what all the research all day, the whole day like here's what all the research that we currently have. And they were very honest. Like, it's not like there's going to be more research on this because like gay marriage is legalized now. But they were here's what the data says. And it sample size wasn't great. And there's bias here and data and they would tell me that stuff. And I was super grateful that they actually exposed us to this information because if you didn't, I think that would be completely unethical. So I'm grateful with that. And does the one. 

Brian [00:28:07] Day exposure count as ethical? 

Meg [00:28:10] I'm not sure that is the case. I read one specific class where readers then like a whole day on it, which I'm just like what it should be is integrated throughout the whole conversation, and we know that now. But I'm sitting there like being like, okay, but I'm also noticing maybe I notice this more in retrospect, but I'm also noticing that, you know, we're talking about like, well, there is this data that says lesbian parents, their children have better outcomes than straight parents when we're talking about two like dual parent households. And then an explanation and theory on why that isn't necessarily particularly becoming it feels biased. And so I remember like learning that and being like, okay, like, like the reason they're giving is, well, they're being watched and they know they're not looked upon all favorably, favorably by a huge, huge portion of this culture, this community, this country, I think. 

Brian [00:29:09] So they're hyper aware. 

Meg [00:29:10] So they're hyper aware. So they're trying harder. So they're getting more education. And I'm just like, I don't really want you to discount that. That's why. But also, if these parents are doing more to protect their children and their caring more for their children, why are you trying to keep them out of their homes? That doesn't make sense to me. 

Brian [00:29:28] But you can't still believe that legislation gets passed because it makes sense. 

Meg [00:29:34] I mean, my minor is in policy, so. No. Okay. 

Brian [00:29:39] So one would hope that was always the case across the board, but it has nothing to do with logic or. 

Meg [00:29:49] Nothing lot to do with power and money and. Yes, yeah. 

Brian [00:29:53] Yeah. Anyway, that data itself can be so deceiving, even going into it saying we don't have enough data and it's probably biased and we know this part is biased. Even saying that the minute you put that data point out there, all of the sudden that's the gold. 

Meg [00:30:11] Standard, right? 

Brian [00:30:12] And you put up all these fences and warnings and red flags and everything and people are just going to. Well, once that data point is there, well, that's what we have. It's like it's so hard to as humans to keep the rest of that in mind. As you look at this small data set, or even if it's a large data center, a biased data set, it's so hard to look at that and be able to maintain objective understanding data is data, and that's the most important thing. It's like, Oh yeah, but somebody made it up to prove a point. And that data. Four out of five dentists, right? 

Meg [00:30:48] Yeah. It's like 67% of all statistics are made up. 

Brian [00:30:51] Yeah. On the spot. Right. That's crazy. Yeah. So it's hard to even to understand the data. What does 67% mean? It's just it's so difficult and they're more marketing terms than they are research terms and understanding the real science behind it. Granted, there are people that do a very good job of that, but it's not the 99.9% making up statistics of people that read the data and draw a conclusion on it and live their lives and make their decisions based on that. Yeah, it's so difficult. 

Meg [00:31:24] Yeah, because you have to grapple with it. You don't want to necessarily like live without any idea of what the research is actually saying because the research may actually be saying something very helpful. But also if we get so attached to the data, we're going to miss things and we're going to new data is going to come out the disagrees with what the prior thing is saying and it's going to rock your world and shatter you, whatever. Like I think that an example of that a lot of people will recognize is, you know, the marshmallow study where they put the marshmallow in front of the toddler and how long they eat this. And I'll give you another one. Well, they've done a study for so, so long. And, you know, the outcomes of like, oh, the kids who wait do better. And that's what we that's what the data is. So it's just like, you know, we need to value, you know, character building on patience and conscientiousness and all these things. And I mean, those values are. A wonderful and when we actually redid the data with less bias, with a better sample size, a more representative sample size, we see that the what's really happening with the kids who are eating the marshmallow right away is that they usually have food scarcity, which means they do not have access to the food that they need. Right. So they're worried that like what they were told isn't true. There's not going to be food later. Right. So I better eat it now. Yeah. And that has nothing to do. 

Brian [00:32:46] And that wasn't a data point we even collected back when they started that study. 

Meg [00:32:49] Right. Has nothing to do with the character of that child. It has everything to do with how this child doesn't have access to resources that they need to thrive. And that's a much more compassionate outlook at this. And it kind of makes sense if this kid doesn't have resources, maybe their outcomes later on aren't as good because they weren't as well nourished and maybe their bodies and grow, you know, as big as they should or whatever. Maybe developmentally they got delayed because they didn't have the food they need access to. That's going to make your life harder. And I think and then, you know, like I heard that story in church, I heard that story like that story was a motivating story to like delay instant gratification. And it's just like, well, is there any other studies that actually show that's important? 

Brian [00:33:32] And for decades, that was the gold standard until they came. I mean, what, three, four decades? That’s ridiculous. 

Meg [00:33:40] That's crazy. And not to say that, I guess I was saying that there's no data that says delaying gratification isn't good. There are there are studies that show that. 

Brian [00:33:49] But that one didn't work. That's not what that one was. 

Meg [00:33:52] Yeah. And so because that is true, like, like that got debunked. 

Brian [00:33:56] But not. 

Meg [00:33:56] Forgotten. 

Brian [00:33:57] Not forgotten DNA for generations. 

Meg [00:34:00] Yeah, people are still using that analogy, not knowing the data is different, but because the data is, you know, comes up saying something else, that means other data that we really deeply believe will come up and say something else. Yeah. And so I, I know the current data on consensual non-monogamy, like ethical non-monogamy, is showing that it is much more complicated to do and doesn't have quite as positive as outcomes. That's what the current data says. The current data is very limited. Yeah, but I have other professionals saying I might be talking to them about this topic and they're like, yeah, I don't necessarily encourage it. Like people can do what they want, but the data that is clear, those like the data is not clear. We don't have enough. Yeah. So like do what you want and you may face some extra challenges because it's a risky thing that we don't have a lot of information about yet. 

Brian [00:34:51] Yeah, and if you do, I'm going to say I told you so. I'm going to say you do what you want. 

Meg [00:34:55] But I. I told you so, so unhelpful. 

Brian [00:34:59] Right? It makes me feel better about giving free advice to everybody on topics I know absolutely nothing about. 

Meg [00:35:09] Yeah. Oh, but there's data. And I can say, like, it's this weird kind of dichotomy of I have all this knowledge, like all this data just up in my head that I love talking about. And also I'm very I try to be very realistic of like everything I say might be bullshit. Like, I don't, I don't know. Because honestly, some of the things that I used to teach are bullshit. Yeah. And so I, I kind of it's, it's a little bit of this imposter syndrome of like, what if everything I'm saying right now is wrong? Because everything I said before and everything like, you know. 

Brian [00:35:41] Yeah, but I think that the current data suggests this. Yes, there's, there is another study that is questioning that, but there's not enough data to be conclusive. I mean, you can just state those facts today, whatever today is, this is what we believe. 

Meg [00:35:55] That's why we started. 

Brian [00:35:56] This is why we start and just keep. But that the damning part is you can't keep that in mind that was a statistic 40 years ago that didn't consider all of the possibilities. It didn't measure some of the things that should have measured. It was it was a food scarcity. It wasn't even we didn't even consider that was a thing. What we did there, clearly, it's been a thing for a long time. And it was right there staring in our faces. We never even considered that, right? Yeah. We didn't shoot. Yeah. For so for 40 years we just thought, yeah. 

Meg [00:36:27] Yeah, that's. And our culture changes so much too. So like, how is gay marriage being legalized going to impact the outcomes of gay couples? It's absolutely impacting it. And that's all brand new data, right? 

Brian [00:36:42] Reset. Throw away all the other data. None of that matters now. 

Meg [00:36:44] Yeah, it just impacts it hugely. Yeah. And so that's the whole thing of just like being open to what's new but not getting too attached to it is like holding space that things might change because it do. 

Brian [00:36:57] And, and we base our opinions on no data but gut feelings or principles or whatever else. How much are they likely to change? 

Meg [00:37:06] Right. 

Brian [00:37:06] Well, as much as you allow them to, as much as you hold space to allow them to change, that's how much they change. 

Meg [00:37:13] This is this makes you laugh because you just you talked about like. Your gut feeling and data. And I, I'm like, yeah, like, we don't need to use one or the other. We should be using both. Yeah. And when I'm talking to believers of the LDS faith by study and by faith and I like, I honestly believe that as, as a principle, like a really pretty overarching principle is I think it's really important to integrate both is yeah, like you might have some intuition about certain things and how does that align with the data like or like you might have learned the science, but is that resonating inside? And I think we should check ourselves on both of those things quite thoroughly. And I think you should know if you lean the more logical data driven or if you lean the more intuitive, and if you're using one more than the other, if you're only leaning into one and trying to integrate both, and maybe that's where some of my resistance to like truth is. Because if we call science truth, I'm just like, yeah, but truth like data changes. Yeah. And so I'm just like, there is something to I think there's something to the inner authority and like knowing yourself and, you know, knowing what will, what work and knowing your own personal experiences and living in accordance to that. But not if it's not necessarily not the being integrating what the science is saying too. Yeah. 

Brian [00:38:39] I just had a great conversation Friday, so it might air that podcast episode right before yours with Hardy. He teaches meditation and he talks about his inner feeler self that is usually or intuition is usually put a set aside. Usually your thinking mechanism steps forward, says, well, you can't do that because and it comes with all these logical reasons and made up statistics and who knows what else. And so I asked him, how do you know when you feel centered? He said. And he gave a great example. He says, My inner feeler self will make a decision on the spot and say yes. And then my intellectual self that will say, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. But what if, what if, what if? And he says, I have to take a minute, tell my intellectual self you can't look forward. You have no idea all of these things you're throwing up here, it's all fear based. You need to look backwards and say, How did we do when we did this before? When I let my inner feeler self take over and make this decision, how did that turn out? Not like we planned, but we handled it and it worked out actually pretty good, but not the way we thought. So your intellectual self will then say, Oh, okay, yeah, you're right. And we'll come to grips with what's happened in the past. But he likes takes those two. He says you act first on your gut instinct and then let your intellectual self look at the history historical pass. It was really interesting conversation. I'm like, and he gave a couple of examples in his life where his inner feel or self did something that his intellectual selves as Whoa, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. What are we doing here? One example. He was work his whole life to a very specific very had this very strong career path to get him to be on a Broadway musical. And it took him a decade and he's there. He's on a Broadway musical. He's doing great, is interviewed herself, says you need to quit. So I quit. And my intellectual self says, what about those 130 consecutive rejections? What about how are we going to pay the bills? What are we? You know, and he had to say, take a look back. And then he showed later how that intuitive self connected to things to parts of his true self for a very beautiful opportunity that he was like, this is where were going, right? You just need to trust me. And there's something connected there about you knowing yourself and silencing your inner critic or your little reptilian brain long enough to say No, this is what needs to happen. So anyway, I just thought that was very interesting that you're talking about that balance between faith and study. 

Meg [00:41:02] That's one of the when I especially like when I was in undergrad and basically with teaching my friends for free, all the things I was learning because you know, when your studies is all about relationships and all of your peers care a lot about getting married, they want to know everything, you know. Yeah. And so, and I always have a lot to say. And so that is one of the things, especially when I was feeling more nuanced and progressive with things and wasn't super sure. I believe you had to test me. I people you know well when you know, you know and, and there are some people who've written some pretty some religious people who have written some, I think compelling pieces. But when you know, you know, I'm a great and do more research, study it out, you can have a really good feeling about something. And I want you to be able to trust yourself so you can move forward with that. And I want you to do it in a smart way. I want you to do it in like you'll be happier, I think happier and more, more sure with your decision in a multifaceted way, if you are intentional about how you go about forming a relationship. Because what I see happening and this is happening. Really close to my life right now is I know someone who is right in the beginning of their faith crisis. And that's kind of like been a few years coming, but like really feeling like I'm ready to leave. Who got into very serious relationship very quickly. And they're basically in a mixed faith situation now. And I don't have confirmation on this, but I can imagine it was one of those situations where they were like, well, when, you know, you know, this feels right, that confirmation from deity on this. So we're moving forward on faith. And when you move forward on faith and then you lose your faith, then you question the legitimacy of the relationship. And that's really painful for both parties and for the people around them. There is a lot of I think it creates dissonance for people like Worlds in God Tell You. And so if God told you that and you're going to leave the marriage or whatever, you're disobeying God like and people can be like, well, it's just maybe it was right for the time and people can work their ways around those things. But it's a really painful thing if you lean on to just your faith. And when you know, you know, compared to when you really decide this is a really good partner for me and this is really good match and they're really healthy and they have a lot of really great skills and they're going to prioritize our relationship over their belief system. They're going to let me grow and change, like if you know that about that partner, right? It's really important to learn before you make serious commitments to them, serious commitments moving in together or serious commitments becoming physically and sexually active. Serious commitments really creating more dependency on each other. People really jump into sharing a lot about themselves or caretaking of the other person really early in relationships in a way that can build connection, but it can also build entrapment, and that can be really dangerous, especially when there's power dynamics at play, which in head of relationships is always the case. Yeah. And in other situations that can be the case because of different privilege. And so yeah, there's just this when we do just one or the other, if one of those things changes, if the data changes, or if our faith changes, for example, it can really shatter the foundation of it. And that's part of deconstruction for a lot of people. And there's nothing immoral about divorce or needing to leave a, you know, dysfunctional system. Right. And I also have seen couples who experienced their spouse, experienced faith transition, who have shown up and said there are many couples like this who shut up and said, I chose my marriage. I chose this person no matter what. I chose that and I'm here for it. That's where my higher commitment is to. Not that we believe exactly the same things, like I know they're a good person, I respect what they do and I've seen that work out well. And I think that's partially because it can because you can choose people with both of those, with both intuition and having thought it out. 

Brian [00:45:36] And in both cases the preventative care on a relationship is, is key. 

Meg [00:45:41] Mm. Yeah, absolutely. And I hope, I mean do your crisis work in your damage control when you're in crisis and when things have really been hurting and go get your therapy. And that's why social work is there. And there are loads of resources to prevent damage as resources for mixed situations, as resources for pre-marital. There's research is, there's resources for parent education. There's so many resources. And the more proactive we are about accessing those, I think the better. 

Brian [00:46:11] Well, we have relationships that proactively address physical training, nutrition, sports, careers, doctors, dentists. How has relationships been overlooked for so long. 

Meg [00:46:26] Especially when the data shows that there's nothing more predictive of how happy you'll be in your life and how long you live? It's it's why, of course, it's so good that we have preventative measures in all of those other facets of our lives. But why do we just wait until things get bad to really protect our relationships? When that's going to help be the thing that helps us have the best quality of life. And that's I mean, that's just that's the biggest passion I have in my field is to start that conversation is like we should have been doing preventative all along. And in some ways we do in some ways character building and it which sometimes some I know some schools do character building for children classes, self-help books can be really great. Like the best time to get in a relationship is when you don't need one. And so if you are really centered on yourself and not desperate for a relationship and not what I call a serial dater, like a serial killer. But dating and you like the never not alone. That's a pretty decent marker for codependency. You can't exist with yourself. And so to get healthy that way. And sometimes it does take individual therapy and that takes self-help books. And in whatever it takes for you not to say that you have to be perfect before you're in a relationship, that's bullshit. Right. But there is a sense that, you know, being a healthy individual is really going to enhance your relationship with people and it's also going to draw the right type of people to you. And so there's a lot that's not necessarily relationship education that will benefit the health of your future relationships. But let's get some relationship at in there, too. Yeah. There's loads of boxes, professionals who do it, their classes or courses online. There are places you can go in person depending on where you live. 

Brian [00:48:09] We'll put your link in the show notes I think can grow with Meg. 

Meg [00:48:12] Yeah. 

Brian [00:48:15] Shoot. I have real simple follow up question. Narrowly lost it. 

Meg [00:48:19] You can take time to remember things. 

Brian [00:48:22] Yeah, I did. You talked about before when you found your therapist. Do you have any insights on finding a good therapist? Because I think a lot of people and I my wife is in the business and she talks to people and they tell her all the time, we've done more in one session than I've done in eight years. And I just know other people who are therapists and they're licensed and they're professionals. And it scares the hell out of me that people go to these people and think, Well, that's what therapy is. It's like, No, no, no, that's bad therapy. You need to find a good there. But don't find a therapist, right? Find a good therapist. How lucky were you on that? How much research did you do? What helped? What? 

Meg [00:49:04] That's a good question. This is a really hard topic to address because I haven't had like screaming success with some of therapists that I have worked with. And I also didn't know at the time how to advocate for myself because it didn't I didn't know what therapy was supposed to look like and felt like. And I also my outlook on life and my belief system has changed so drastically since the first time I went to therapy that I look for drastically different things in the end. Okay. Now, this is a very, very complex thing to answer, but I have so my experience with it was my first hair up as you had to do, like I intake every time you did a session. Okay. And just to see how you do it. And apparently they would just, like, have a graph on you and they would tally up points or however they did it, it'd be like, Oh, she's doing where she's doing better. And I don't go to this therapist and this is what you therapists for very long before and I think before they he was like, I think you're fine. I think you're struggling, but you're doing well enough. Like you're above the line. You've been above the line of, I don't know, crisis or whatever the line was. I was not doing really that well. But you've been above the line for the last few sessions. So like I think we could move on. And my memory of going to this therapy, therapists was I would sit on this couch and just before my eyes though every session about mostly like my family of origin issues. And I'm just like, you think I'm okay? I'm, I'm not okay like and but I tested as okay a few times and so I got kicked out. And I think the really unfortunate part of this is while BYU does have one of the most robust counseling, what like sectors compared to most of the universities, it's nowhere near enough to meet the capacity like the need, meet the demand. 

Brian [00:50:59] So they have like three sessions for you, five sessions for you and you're out. Is that kind of that? 

Meg [00:51:03] I mean, I have no idea. I think there are some people who stay with their BYU counselor for a long, long time. My experience is that I wasn't in enough crisis compared to maybe other students who needed therapy. They could justify having me there. And I have a lot of compassion toward that because hopefully whoever took my spot really got some help. But I didn't, you know, and it took me a considerable amount of time to get myself up to going to another therapist. So I have. I've had. 

Brian [00:51:32] And how did you find that one? 

Meg [00:51:34] One of one of therapies I found through the church actually paid for it. Okay. And so, yeah, my tithing money went to use. I say that my time money went to that. 

Brian [00:51:44] And not to the gateway. I mean, not to the mall at all. 

Meg [00:51:50] That's what I like to think. But, yeah, so I. I found that therapist, and that was maybe not necessary. One of the worst therapists. She's a really nice lady and also she I was way mad faith crisis at that time and I had experienced some pretty severe trauma that I wasn't able to open up about at that time. And she wanted me to read my scriptures and that whole thing that we see that therapists and. So do not ethically. And maybe at that time, like I wanted to like reading my scriptures and she was like, okay, then keep reading your scriptures. Yeah. But I think if I'm like, I don't like this, I'm supposed to care. I'm supposed to feel close to God when I'm reading these, maybe, maybe dove into those feelings more than just encourage me to, to keep following the standards of the church. And I in some ways do and don't fault her. I don't think that's ethical at all. And also in other ways, it was helpful to have an outlet. So I had that therapist, I had a couple others. Yeah, I've had a few others and just a lot of different experiences, like finding them. I can't even remember how I found all of them. My most recent therapist I have I find therapist and thing to be so exhausting and expense disappointing. Yeah. And doing therapy is definitely expensive, but I. So they're wasting. 

Brian [00:53:14] Them on trials. How many times do you go before you decide? Now, this isn't a good fit. And now you start all over again with the next one. 

Meg [00:53:20] And then the ones that you think like, Oh, I'm really going to tackle this person, you know, never like has, does insurance or has a wait list a year long or whatever. So then I'm like, well, maybe I'll, I'll get my name on their wait list and I'll wait for like five months and I'll be, I'll be fine. 

Brian [00:53:36] White knuckle it till then. 

Meg [00:53:38] Yeah, I've done that before for sure. I have currently and, and I use this with a, if a friend says like I need to find a therapist, what do I do? I'm like, will you sit down with me with my spreadsheet? And I have this very, very basic spreadsheet that like, just like kind of organizes naming which therapists that look appealing, that maybe take your insurance or whatever and their specialty is and where they're located and just different things that you need to know that you so you can see it all at once. So they can decide who to call or who to send a message on to. And you can like I just had this like, yeah, I contacted them, like I'm waiting to hear back and a lot of times you don't hear back and that usually means a full. But it's also just that kind of like have a hopes up about that one and that it's been two weeks oh it's not going to happen and that's disappointing. And so but that's the system that I currently is, is my janky Google spreadsheet and, and I care a lot about like if someone says I really need therapy, but I feel so stuck when I try to look into therapist, I don't know where to start. Yeah, I'm like, okay, let's sit down on. 

Brian [00:54:38] Top of everything else that I'm struggling with and just barely making it right now, let's add that. 

Meg [00:54:43] And then you go and then they might suck and not even that they might not be a great therapist, but they just might not have the revive for you. And like it's it can feel quite defeating and I don't know if I personally have a solution for it because my standard on therapist is like very high and it should be at. Yeah, and I agree. And it's complicated like not being a therapist but being more of like an educator and a coach to be like, I'm not like educated in the same way as a therapist, but I know a lot of things that therapists know. And so I kind of want to work with a therapist who works with therapists, but I'm not like on that academic level, there's I have the same training as them. And so I struggle with that. I need them to be competent in Mormonism. I want them to have trauma informed and trauma trained. And I have all these things that if you're like if you're listening in your therapist, you can I mean, I'm not going to say everything I work with and work on therapy, but, you know, you reach out to me and maybe I'll find a good therapist. 

Brian [00:55:46] Are you still looking? 

Meg [00:55:47] Yeah, I am. 

Brian [00:55:49] Because you said you've done some really good work in therapy, and I assumed it's been good for you. 

Meg [00:55:53] Mm. Yeah. And I do recommend therapy, even knowing that it can be really challenging to find one. And that can be disappointing when you are working with one that maybe does more damage than good. But then I think of like, oh, that one I worked for like eight we worked with for like eight months and here were the struggle points to do. And also I got language for this. Yeah. And I discovered this about myself. And sometimes it's just like some of the sessions are going to go out and some of them are and sometimes like is unsettling maybe. And I don't think I'm really in a strong mindset anymore. I'm kind of looking for not a perfect person, but like basically a perfect therapist for me. Yeah, I want a good fit and I mean sometimes a delay therapy. And so just like going to like random or random therapist that are not actually that. 

Brian [00:56:34] You can get into. 

Meg [00:56:35] You know, but finding a therapist is hard and doing therapy is also very hard, right? 

Brian [00:56:41] And needing therapy takes everything out of you. So now you've got to do both of those on top of that. 

Meg [00:56:45] It's a lot. It's a lot. 

Brian [00:56:47] How are you doing? You holding up? Yeah, I think we're. I've just got a couple more. I think I wanted to ask you about anger. Um, your thoughts on anger? 

Meg [00:56:57] I love anger. I'm friends with my anger now. I think there is healthy anger, and I lean into that quite proactively. I and I've experienced unhealthy anger a lot in my life because I grew up where there was some pretty toxic, unhealthy outbursts. Anger. And I modeled that as a teenager. Yeah. Where I is that my parents modeled that and then I. Right. But I reciprocated. And I don't think I think anger. Sometimes anger is like a reaction to your boundaries being broken. I think that's a really healthy amount of anger. And honestly, if I look back at my childhood, I was probably reacting to a lot of boundaries being crossed and a lot of unethical things happening. It makes sense that I was that angry and I think there's a way to express anger. I don't think you have to be tempered with the way you express anger. I don't think we need to simply that. But I do think there is a way to express anger that doesn't harm unnecessarily. And I think that's where kind of my meter is on it is Do No Harm is a really important core concept for me. And I think we think anger only harms, but I think anger facilitates change that will especially if we make change systemically, whether that's hugely systemically within our whole world or our society or our state or whatever, or if it's just systemic change in your family or with a relationship. I think if you're effecting change, that is going to minimize the harm over time because you challenge a system with your anger. I think that can be helpful and often the right thing to do. I have a lot of feminist rage currently. I think I used to feel guilty about being angry and I even have had. It was it was a students in marriage or family therapy program. Talk to me about anger. And that anger is like a secondary emotion. And beneath anger is deeper causes, that being that like feeling disrespected, for example. And I do think it's just like the iceberg, basically the iceberg emotion over the over this water. And underneath there's something deeper. And while I do think there is a lot of use in trying to uncover what's below your anger, I think it can be a very invalidating perspective to say, just don't feel angry. Find out why you're angry. Feel your feelings. Yeah. Feel your fucking feelings. Yeah. Thank you. Feel the anger. And, you know, maybe be careful about how that anger impacts the people around you. Like, if you are going off and cussing people out, like, because you're angry, that's probably not the most useful way to use that feeling. But to lean into the discomfort because anger can be really uncomfortable, especially if you were told never to feel it. Yes. And I kind of this is like going back to the cookie cutter conversation where I felt like a star. So like I do feel like I let my anger show. Like I wasn't always scared of my anger, but then I would shrink. And so I don't feel like I was always stuffing my anger away. 

Brian [01:00:23] Yeah, but you weren't acting on it positively after the fact either. You were just being angry. And that was it. You weren't. I love that you said it's okay to be angry and just sit with your anger. And I like that you're friends with your anger now, but you don't want to be friends with it forever. You don't want them to move in and be that a status. You know your status quo. Mm hmm. You want to kick that roommate out, right? But you need to figure out what you're angry at and what you're willing to do and what you can do about that. 

Meg [01:00:50] Yeah, and I think that's actually the answer to big feelings like anger and hopelessness, especially when we're thinking of activism. So I'm really angry with oppression of all groups who are oppressed. 

Brian [01:01:03] Across the board. 

Meg [01:01:04] And I'm really angry with that. Very consistently I'm angry with that. And it keeps coming up. Right. And it sometimes it stays sometimes it squats a little in my life, you know, in a way that probably is not healthy. And also what I see is I do need to get to know my anger and I do need to sit with it and maybe feel uncomfortable or just feel it and be enraged. There's a lot of I think that's very helpful. And also, if I stay in the feelings and I don't actually go deal with it, it will probably just stick around in a way that is deteriorating my soul. Like, because that's really what it can do. Yeah, if I don't put it into movement. And so I think anger, if anger stays stagnant, I just hold on to that anger really tightly and I don't let it flow through. Well, I'm going to take action for this. I'm going to say something about this. I'm not going to let it build resentment in me. I'm not going to I'm going to donate to a cause. I'm going to go to a march. I'm going to you know, if I if I create movement and action into wherever my anger is coming from, I think that is actually what helps us heal and what helps us move through that. Temporary emotion. The thing is that emotion is going to come back even if I donate to somebody and I'm like, okay, like I'm doing, you know, my part and I'm showing up and I'm letting my anger move the thrill. Well, another news article is going to come up tomorrow, and I'm going to be angry again. And that's okay. I don't want to resist my anger anymore and be like, I'm supposed to be sweet. Mm hmm. Yeah. Which is. Yeah. Which is a lot of what, you know, as women, we've been conditioned to be. I have pretty like. I really felt like a boat rocker pretty much my whole life. Like a pretty outspoken person, like, and having lots of shame for being that person. And I don't feel bad about that anymore. And so I have to, like, kind of go back through my younger years and be like, oh, you felt bad about that. But that was actually, like, the right thing. Yeah. And so I kind of give myself more permission and love on my inner child a little bit more, but actually. And that actually makes me think so. Kristen has a great book called Self-compassion. And. And I'm like in some group that talks about it. And there was this illustration that I saw, I don't know when it was a few months ago that has really impacted the way that I see self-love and part of the and this will tie back kind of into the anger part of self-love, the way that I've kind of always seen it when I first started learning about it, which was a radical change of beliefs, because I was taught not to love myself. You love God. And that's all. And you hate yourself. But, you know, I started learning more about self-love, and I started untangling some of the loathing that I had just been so accustomed to. And I learned that self-love was the way that I like to look at it right now is that self-love can be defined with two different parts. And one of them is self-compassion. And this is the one that I think we usually lean into when we have this conversation where it's like taking care of like being soft and gentle and forgiving of your inner child and who you used to be and how that maybe harmed you or the people around you and really like caring for yourself and kind of giving yourself a break and loving your or at least being neutral toward your imperfections. And that's really the only version of self-love that I thought existed is this very compassionate view of self. And what I'm really leaning a lot more into now is that the other part of self-love is a fierce version, is where you protect yourself. I feel so strongly about this. I'm like getting emotional is and that the imagery that they had on this graphic was self compassionate. It was bears like a mom bear and a baby bear. And self-compassion was just like the bears cuddling and just very warm, gentle, you know. And then the other one was like, Mama Bear. And like, I resonate with Mama Bear for a long time because I've kind of historically been the person who stands up for the underdog. Like, I usually will take that on, which comes without a problem. But, but in this sense of like, we have an inner child inside of us and that's like the baby cub, right? My little inner cub inside of me. And can I stand up for myself and can I be fierce and very upfront about my boundaries? Because I think that's where a lot of anger resides, is when we let people walk all over us and when we don't have boundaries. And of course, when other terrible things happen that we have no control over that are so unfair. Like, I get really angry about those things too. But this part of self-love that I'm really starting to lean into is, yeah, you are allowed to show up big and loud and fierce for yourself and be like, No, I'm not taking your shit. This is total bullshit. And you don't get to walk all over me like and I've allowed you to in the past. And we're going to be done with that because I actually know the quality of relationship I deserve and I demand that now, and that is a way to love me. And I'm like, oh, my gosh, I can love myself in a not just a gentle way, but in a way that I'm like actually really accustomed to is being I don't mean to say, like, aggressive, but is being really like I'm literally what I'm doing right now is I'm expanding my shoulders. 

Brian [01:06:34] As aggressive as necessary. Yeah, as necessary. 

Meg [01:06:38] Right. Not this, like, sweet cowering. Right. And I don't mean self-love is cowering or self-compassion is cowering, but the version of self-love that I love is. 

Brian [01:06:46] Always soft and sweet. Right? It doesn't have claws out. Sometimes it does. 

Meg [01:06:51] And I really want to have both. But right now, I've been more particularly leaning into the kind of love that has claws out. Yeah, because you have claws out for protecting yourself and protecting marginalized people. I'm not really as concerned. Like I say, do no harm. I'm really not as concerned about hurting someone who's oppressing someone. If the person who's oppressed is being put down. I'm just really not as. I don't bring up the things that like challenging ideas to people who are saying or doing terrible things, thinking that they'll actually change. I don't actually really believe that, but as a generalization. But I do think it's important to show up for whoever is oppressed. And so Ruth Bader Ginsburg's quote about getting off our necks is kind of some of the imagery that I like with this idea is that people might be like, well, your claws are out. Why are you hurting? I always see like a man in a stew on our necks. Right? Why are you hurting this man? You're causing harm. And I was like, look under his foot. Yeah, I will be this loud. Like, I will thrice beg and I'm going to have broad shoulders and I'm going to have, like, a really like a stance that shows that, like, I have power here, and I'm not really concerned that I'm pushing this person like this young man in a suit off of her neck. 

Brian [01:08:12] Right. 

Meg [01:08:13] Because she's suffocating. Yeah. And that analogy, I think we can we I mean, it's just not it's not just her. It's so many other groups. And we can bring up George Floyd here. And, you know, like, it's just it's tangible. It's it literally has happened. And I am really not concerned about hurting people's feelings who are causing harm. Right. We really care about protecting people who have who are experiencing the harm. And that also kind of comes back to me is I have harm has been caused to me. And I'm also worth standing up to that. Yeah. Even even when I believed that, you know, the people or the groups organizations that have caused me harm, even though historically I believe, like they are the best, they could never cause me any harm. But then I find out that they do. They have or they always have. I just have been blind to it because I've been putting myself down and myself. Second, this whole time I finally realized, Oh no, that's not the case. Yeah, look at the harm. Who I'm going to stand up to this and this is scary because I'm going to I'm it comes at a cost, but it's worth me being fierce for myself and hopefully for others too. 

Brian [01:09:25] Yeah, that's beautifully stated. 

Meg [01:09:27] Thank you. 

Brian [01:09:27] Thank you for that. 

Meg [01:09:28] It's important. 

Brian [01:09:30] I love the visual that love doesn't need to be soft and cuddly. Sometimes it growls and rip your freakin face off what it needs to. Yeah. And, and you're allowed to do that to protect yourself, not just for somebody else. 

Meg [01:09:44] Mm hmm. 

Brian [01:09:46] I read this book that says 4% of adults cannot define what the word anger and can't tell the difference between anger and disappointment. And then he went on to explain that anger was noticing the injustice in a situation. And it's just it's that simple. That’s anger. And every example you use just fit into that. It's like, I don't need to be polite when I'm angry. 

Meg [01:10:12] I had a situation fairly recently. I was just hanging out with a friend and in a not a very not so I know very well. And so I didn't know really what to expect. And I'm always a little hesitant when we're just like extra aware and sensitive. When I'm talking to men, especially men, I don't know well enough to know if they're feminists, basically. Yeah. Or a bigot in any other way. Right. And anyway, so I noticed that he started like mansplaining a couple of times and I was like a little irritated and I could have let it go, like, just be like, okay, noted. Like, I don't do this thing anymore where I am like, I'll make it work. I'm just like, Oh, thank you so much for showing me right away that I don't want to be around you. Like I'm not going to know that the universe is abundant. Like I will find people who I connect with who like actually are here with me, you know, like who get and will bitch about stuff together. Like, I just. Anyway, so it's just like, I like weed yourself out. I'm going to ask you hard questions. Like, I'm gonna say hard things like I'm gonna see how you act. Because I would rather. No, really. So anyway, so this basically happening, I was like, Oh, great. He exposed himself. I'm probably like, I spent a ton of time with him later, but yet kind of man's man a few times. And so I just like brought it up and was like, Hey, do you notice? Because I tend to I mean, sometimes I will bring things up sweet. And a lot of that has to do with like they could get really fragile and that is the dangerous situation for me. And so and that is a very consistent thing I've seen in my life. And so, you know, I temper a lot of the stuff I say unless I really trust someone to hold my anger. But if I don't know if I can trust them with that, I'll usually try to be like a little more graceful with the way that I bring things up, which I don't think it's necessary. I think that's a lot of emotional labor that I don't have to spend. 

Brian [01:11:59] A lot of energy trying to be aware of all that situation. And. 

Meg [01:12:02] Right. And so I brought it up. I was like, hey, you did just explain something really simple and basic to me that I knew. And I may have said the word man's I who knows what I said. But I, you know, I brought this up and I just, like, made it clear, and he kind of apologized. And got, you know, like a little disoriented. And we just kept moving on in the conversation. And after like a minute, I could tell his mind was still kind of, you know, not fully present. Probably thinking of all the feedback I just given him, which makes sense. And he said something to me about the brought up that conversation. He's like, I just feel like I have to be, like, really careful. Like, I'm walking on eggshells. Like, I don't want to do the wrong thing. Am I correct? Precisely my intention. Like and I used to feel a lot of shame. And not to say that I've done this perfectly all the time, like it's totally not true. But I just feel like a lot of shame around like, what if I have such high standards that people really feel like they can't be around me? Because what if we say something wrong or do something wrong in front of Meg? And that I mean, that's brought a lot of shame. Like, what if I don't actually connect with people and they think I'm a bad person because I'm always going out and in some ways I can temper that because I can be intense. And I just I hesitate to say the word intense because I recognize it has a connotation that's not putting me in a good light. And I'm like, actually, maybe I'm not intense and maybe I'm not abrasive. Maybe I actually show up with tact and they are fragile. And I'm not saying that's true all of the time, but I think there is something to say about, Yeah, I brought that thing up that you were being sexist or that you were being racist or that's a homophobic thing to post. I brought that up very intentionally so that you would think twice about it, and now you're all worried that you might do or say the wrong thing. Great. That's exactly what I want. I want you to be aware of what is going to be the right thing to do or say here. Yeah, because you have other people in mind that you're not just thinking about yourself or that you're so totally that you're blinders on with all of your privilege, that you're not being aware of how you're impacting other people negatively. And I have a lot of privilege to be able to bring those things up to other people. And so I try to and I don't I think I'm learning my way out of being too worried that people are going to feel like, what if I say the wrong thing in front of Meg? I'm like, You should be worried. Yeah, like because you should. That means hopefully that you're going to go research and stuff. 

Brian [01:14:28] Well, just stop saying the wrong thing anywhere. Yeah, maybe you be. Take that out with you when you leave the room too. Right. I have a lot of bad habits in conversations and thought processes that are going to take a long time to go away. And I. I know I trip over myself sometimes, and I know I make a fool of myself sometimes. I had at a friend on this podcast on my early or he says, I good I hope you do that on air and I hope people call you on it. Yeah. Like yeah I hope so too. It's it's not fun. It's not. 

Meg [01:14:59] But it's very uncomfortable. 

Brian [01:15:01] It is uncomfortable and it should because it's been uncomfortable to everybody else every time you've done it your entire life yet. So maybe it's time you got your own act together. 

Meg [01:15:10] That's exactly it is. 

Brian [01:15:12] And if I can help with smacking you with a cricket bat once in a while, maybe that's what we'll do. What if I hit you hard enough? Maybe want to pitch twice, right. 

Meg [01:15:20] And so I think. I think that's like a I think when we have anger, we don't want to let it boil over because we're not addressing it. We want to like we want to feel it, lean into it, and then do something about it. I'm angry that you crossed my boundaries. I'm angry that you're talking over me. I'm angry that you're, you know, whatever it is. And I'm angry that, you know, this political, terrible thing happened or whatever I'm angry about. And then can I go? Not immediately. I get I mean, I spiral and I get helpless and I, you know, like, I yeah, I get angry and I get sad, I get distraught. I get, you know, it's not pleasant. And sometimes I'm like, this is a lot to feel like. Basically constantly, but I feel it. Yeah. I let myself feel those things because I want to be able to move through the feeling so I can go deal with it. And this is like a very Tiffany Ro type of thing, but like feel, deal, heal. I don't think if I don't feel or deal with it that I'm going to have it process in a way that I can move forward. And I'd rather move forward than just like keep all that stuff just totally lodged in my body and then metastasizing and coming out in other ways that are actually harming other people. Yeah, cause I did that most of my life and myself. I did that most of my life. I lodge things away and, you know, I could be explosive as a teenager and I could like and I had bad habits and like all these things that came with pent up, like, uncovered, hurt and harm from my past. And the more you uncover that stuff the last year, projecting your own bullshit on everybody else. Yeah. And that's just helpful. I'd rather feel did a heel than get stuck just feeling or avoiding my feeling. 

Brian [01:16:55] But how hard have you worked on yourself to take yourself from that mag to this mag? 

Meg [01:17:00] Yeah. 

Brian [01:17:01] And if you're out there being offended by something we're saying, people work on yourself, you've got some work to do. 

Meg [01:17:08] I guess. 

Brian [01:17:10] Myself included. 

Meg [01:17:11] It's I mean, I think I've worked really hard and I think some of that has been really conscious and proactive and I. Some of it has just come with kind of subliminally, like being surrounded by incredible people and listening or reading things that I didn't know. We're going to impact me and maybe did in small ways, or maybe I didn't notice it. But then when I look back on it, I'm like, Oh, that actually made a really big impact. And I think I can't take all the credit for all the work that I've done. Yes, you can. Thank you. Yeah. I mean, I think I can take credit for the work that I've done, but I don't think I think there's a lot of privilege in being in the right situation, surrounded by the people who have impacted me in a way that I am a different person now. Yeah. And I think that's I want to acknowledge that as I don't think everyone is always in that position to be exposed to those people in those resources. And I've been. I've been really lucky. Yeah. Yeah. 

Brian [01:18:09] Privilege is always a hard one for me because I just realize it's taken me so long to realize what that even means. We never even talked about it. It wasn't a thing. And I immediately have a lot of pain for not doing more with what I have, with what I've had, and with not really recognizing it for what it is and for using it to my advantage without recognizing it. Or it's just something that I've really been trying to come to terms with. But it is it's absolutely it's a thing and it's yeah. Something that needs to be recognized more and more often. 

Meg [01:18:47] I think privilege guilt is a really real thing and I think feel your feelings and I don't think but create more action. I think that's where my mind goes when I hear that is like we can be disappointed for as long as we want, not as we want. And it's the feelings are just feel the whole thing. But we can, you know, we can live in that disappointment of I could have done more and I should have because I have all this privilege, but that's not helping. And so we have to fill it anyway. But can we push and can we make movement to start helping now when need, you know, whatever awakening that we have, I think we can get I think it's really easy to get stuck in the guilt of having privilege but having not done anything about it. 

Brian [01:19:28] Yeah, so which is a great Segway. My next question with the latest Supreme Court reversal, the anger in this household was high. 

Meg [01:19:38] Yeah. 

Brian [01:19:39] And the sentiment was, why aren't more people more angry? 

Meg [01:19:42] I almost brought that up, in fact. 

Brian [01:19:44] And so when you get to that, you say, well, bring more action. How how much action do you have to bring until you're not angry about that? It doesn't get fixed as easily as it was fucked. 

Meg [01:19:59] Yes. Yes. 

Brian [01:20:01] And so the anger, it's still out there. It's out there today. It's out there tomorrow. It was out there yesterday is out there last week. I mean, we did not celebrate the 4th of July in our house. We didn't think America deserved a birthday this year. And it was just really hard at my girls that four years of all painted their nails red, white and blue. No red, no white, no blue this year. And I feel that. Yeah. And we've taken steps and but we haven't taken all the steps. How many steps. I mean we and I've had that discussion with Gabby, it's like clearly there's a, there's a clear amount of what is enough it's to get it fixed. But we can't do all that today. 

Meg [01:20:39] Right. 

Brian [01:20:40] And I can't be angry until that's taken care of. But I can't be satisfied until that's taken care of either. So. How do you balance that? What's the secret? 

Meg [01:20:48] I don't have a secret. 

Brian [01:20:49] Come on, give me the special formula. That's what we. 

Meg [01:20:53] Need. Oh, nice to have the secrets that maybe someone does. So hopefully the. 

Brian [01:20:58] Hotlines are open. 

Meg [01:20:59] Yes, call. That's what I was going to say. You know, I really don't have a secret. And, like, what's interesting, I have a lot of things to say. I think what's interesting about I want to, like acknowledge some privileged to like this being the first 4th of July that a lot of people have chosen not to celebrate in 2022, when the founding fathers didn't include basically anyone, anyone except for, like, property owning white men. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that is I think it's like it says a lot about and what you're saying before, like what we have been willing to fight for historically and whether or not it affects us. Do we fight? And like questions like, you know, if I was born in a different time period, would I have cared enough about X, Y, Z thing that maybe people didn't really fight for it that much yet? Maybe it was really subversive? Would I have done enough? Would I have cared? And I think that kind of goes to your point before. But I think it's interesting to see excuse me to see that there have always been a lot of reasons not to celebrate the 4th of July. Yeah, that's true. And I think it's not as black and white as celebrate or not. Yeah. I think that's kind of where I land on that is that. But if that is what's helping you like work through your anger about something that's present, do it. That's a great way to feel and deal. But I think I feel like it's really important to acknowledge that there's been loads of reasons real that's true from the past and reasons that I have peers who've seen those reasons all along, that I've been blind to those reasons. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. And, yeah, I think that's probably the first thing that I want to say to that, because I think it's important to just acknowledge and acknowledge a privilege on that. And also my first reaction when you brought up the overturn, Roe v Wade was really emotional. I mean, immediately, as you said those words, I teared up. Yeah. Which is wildly different than how I reacted in the past around abortion issues. And I actually don't have like I haven't really dug into this in my personal life. I don't have like a really clear timeline of when that changed for me. I really have no idea of when it did. But I do know that at some point I start caring a lot and I'm very emotional about it. And the reality is, is the anger runs really deep on this issue and on many, many issues. And I don't know if there's a way to just be like, yeah, well, if you don't have enough money, if you volunteer for and you know, then maybe it won't feel as shitty be like, No, it's going to keep feeling shitty and I'm going to keep waking up feeling like I'm in survival mode. Yeah. And that, like. 

Brian [01:23:49] A bad episode of Handmaid's Tale. 

Meg [01:23:51] Well, and I don't even use that as a reference because that centers on like this really affecting white women. And what we know from all of the data is that the way that Handmaid's Tale is, you know, put in this not factual, but like the story is what has been happening to black and indigenous people forever. Yeah. And disproportionately way more harm and way less access to medical care and way higher mortality rates. And I think that I think is really important to acknowledge that is if this is our first time really accessing kind of the despair we're feeling as a people. I mean, not everyone, but as a people about really tangible losing rights, like really tangible, without acknowledging that there are groups who have always been disadvantaged like that. I think that's an oversight. 

Brian [01:24:50] And I'm pissed and depressed and guilty. 

Meg [01:24:55] Yeah. Yeah. And me too. You know, it's. It's really. And heartbroken. Yeah. I think it's easy to center ourselves, and I think it's easy to only care about the things that affect us directly or maybe affect someone we love. But can we go broader than that? Like, and I want to I'm working to be the kind of person who goes broader than that. And I don't know nearly enough about intersectionality, but you better be damn sure that I'm trying because it matters, because there are people who are not being awoken. There are people who have known this all along, and they're the people who've suffered the most. And I read this quote I forget who it's by, but it's and I just I really have been resonate with this lately. But the people closest to the pain should be the people closest to the power. And why are we centering white male voices? Why are we not centering like queer people of color? You know, like that's where the power is because they are closest to the pain. And not that everyone needs to have all the intersectionality to, to be the only people in power. But like, we got to get people who are close to the pain, close to the power. 

Brian [01:26:09] Well, but that's the trick, right? I mean, the reason there is pain is because the people that are in power are pushing the pain as far away from them as possible. 

Meg [01:26:18] Exactly. 

Brian [01:26:18] If it doesn't affect them, they don't care. And if what they're doing benefits them 1% and affects somebody else negatively, 99%. That's okay. 

Meg [01:26:26] Right. Is like if we could have some character building on healthy sacrifice, but can you really not sacrifice that 1%? Why aren't you fucking doing that? Yeah, I know. It's really nice. And this is a lot to say of, like, room to grow for me is what am I not sacrificing? Because it's really convenient for me. And I think there's like a healthy level of sacrifice. I think we need to be really careful not to ruin our lives because we're over sacrificing like we need to stay healthy. Like the more full your cup is, like fill your cup so it's overflowing so it can spill over into other things. 

Brian [01:27:00] Yeah, but the people who have their full cups only think about getting bigger cups. 

Meg [01:27:05] Right? 

Brian [01:27:05] And they're worried about it not being full. And so they're just going to keep on keep the hose running the whole time. Why? People downstream aren't getting any. 

Meg [01:27:12] Right. 

Brian [01:27:13] And it's fear. It's opportunistic. It. Selfish leaders delete ism. It's history. It's. 

Meg [01:27:21] Yeah. I don't have a solution hanging. 

Brian [01:27:23] I was hoping you had the solution. 

Meg [01:27:25] Just thing. 

Brian [01:27:25] We could solve it on the show. We would be so popular. 

Meg [01:27:28] That would be pretty amazing. I wonder if someone with significant more intersectionality would have something more akin to a solution, because that's people cause of the pain. That's the thing. 

Brian [01:27:39] Because they've had it, they understand it. They live with it for much longer. 

Meg [01:27:43] Yeah. Like black people didn't have to learn the actual history of slavery that I wasn't taught in a whitewash school. Yeah, no, they're taught what really happened, and I had to unlearn and relearn. And so why do I think I have the ends? I don't, I couldn't I haven't known. I mean I'm all learning. 

Brian [01:28:02] To learn together. 

Meg [01:28:03] Mhm. Mhm. Yeah. 

Brian [01:28:05] And when you do find the answer come back on my show and. 

Meg [01:28:07] Deal. 

Brian [01:28:08] And reveal it here. 

Meg [01:28:09] I'll do some soul searching. 

Brian [01:28:11] Yeah that'll be great. 

Meg [01:28:13] I really don't think that's me. I'll do some talking to people closer to pain. Yeah, do some research and book reading and yeah. I where the answers are. 

Brian [01:28:21] Okay, two more questions. All right. Ready to move on? 

Meg [01:28:24] All right. 

Brian [01:28:25] Okay. Thank you for that, by the way. I'm glad we talked about that. 

Meg [01:28:28] Yeah, I. I realize I didn't I don't even know if I addressed you did bring up Roe v Wade, and I didn't really address it. I don't know if you wanted to. Yeah, no, I don't even really remember what you brought up earlier. Yeah. Why you brought that up. 

Brian [01:28:42] That I remember. We can go back and listen to it. 

Meg [01:28:44] Okay, well, we might as well move forward. 

Brian [01:28:47] Okay. These are a little easier. 

Meg [01:28:48] Okay. 

Brian [01:28:50] What are you doing? To take care of Meg? What works for that? 

Meg [01:28:53] Honestly, I feel like my little bear analogy is. Is basically my answer. Okay. Is like I do a lot of things like I as a person like my as far as hobbies go. Like I think taking care of you is partially about, you know, connecting with people and developing self and having new things to look forward to and those things. And so I'm like a very like outdoorsy person. So I'm a big hiker. I do camping trips. Some of those things take care of me. I actually really connect with nature and had some pretty cool experiences just being connected to the earth and things and little hippie dippy, but it's kind of gone just like what works work for now. And we'll see how it goes later. 

Brian [01:29:38] Why? Why do we feel the need to downplay that? 

Meg [01:29:42] Well, the thing is, is I don't want to get too attached to it. Okay. So if I hold that very tightly, okay, that I don't have the opportunity for like to let the sand flow through my hand, okay? Rather than like really grasping that has to be the thing. Like, I am not going to say that's my new form of spirituality, but that is something that has worked for me for now. Yeah. And so I just if it like, if it works for you, do the thing like practice and believe whatever gives you peace so long as it does not hurt yourself or others. And sometimes being in the mountains is really working for me. And so I do that thing. And if it isn't working anymore, I'm not going to shame myself that I'm not having cool experiences there anymore. I just I'm so over like holding that tightly to an idea that I have to have spirituality in this way. I don't need that anymore. I don't need the shame in my life. I have I've experienced more than a lifetime of shame through my religious upbringing and through my familial upbringing. And I still combat it all the time. But I know how and I know how to get out of a spiral. And I know how to be connected to people who I can help them. Walk me through getting out of a spiral if I'm with someone I trust because it's not worth my life to be ashamed all the time. I just I don't want to do that anymore. It really is. I mean, the challenge is still very hard to do, but I think if I keep practicing, I'm going to probably get better at it. Yeah, that's what I do. 

Brian [01:31:08] Yeah, that's a good plan. 

Meg [01:31:09] We'll see how it goes. I'll let you know. So far. Pretty good, honestly. Yeah. Feeling a lot better than it used to, I'll tell you that. But so I take care of myself in like those ways, trying to keep up on hobbies. And really something that really does fill me is my social connections. I'm a social butterfly, I'm super outgoing, and it's really meaningful to me to make consistent, deep connections with other people. And I have like a really good social network right now. I also find myself really drawn to being involved. And so I do like, I do a lot with some post-Mormon events creation stuff and I get a lot of fulfillment out of that. And I think it is a way to take care of myself, to realize like, oh, like I'm kind of a, I'm a part of something that's helping people and that makes me feel pretty good. And then I think as far as like how I really take care of me, I, I'm like, I'm like smiling and laughing because I am really trying not to make like, a self-pleasure joke. But here you are. 

Brian [01:32:13] You're not giving a joke. 

Meg [01:32:14] Come on. Notice how I like, don't say my jokes, but I say I might tell a joke. 

Brian [01:32:19] That's right. If I were to tell a joke now, it would be about things. 

Meg [01:32:24] But I take care of myself. I think the best, the most effective ways that I find to take care of myself is to focus on developing self-love in both that compassionate hug that, you know, baby bear cub way, which is my inner self, my world, my inner child, and all the different versions of me that have existed in the past. And also that fierce mama bear. Like stand up for myself, broad in my shoulders. Stand my ground that fierce. Like, like take no shit, have real strong boundaries and not let down on that. And like, no, no, that I can expect and demand really quality relationships and really quality interactions and that I'm allowed and giving myself permission to be like, No, this is what I expect and please show up this way because I won't keep showing up. Like I there's a there's some I don't know who it's by, but hopefully I don't botch this. But there's this quote that talks about like, I'm not like I might not show up to your table, but I still want you to eat. And so and something like that, I really do think I did that. I did not do that justice that in the sense of like I might leave a table that I was at that was comfortable for me at the time. If I realized this isn't my space, this isn't what resonates with me. I really disagree on a values level with this group or with this person or whatever. But just because I've left your table doesn't mean I wish the worst for you. I still want you to eat. I'm just going to eat somewhere else because I deserve to be in spaces where I'm allowed to be my full self. And that is a huge part of how I take care of me now is just kind of knowing that the universe is abundant type of mentality and that I don't have to accept the breadcrumbs of other people is that I can actually find what actually resonates with me, and that will continue to change. And so I'll probably be at a lot of different tables throughout my life and I give myself permission to do that. Like, I give myself permission to take care of me and realize when I'm changing and adjust how I take care of me to meet the new needs without pressure and shame to do it too quickly or to do it right. That's I mean, that what that makes me think of right now is like I am kind of more or less exploring my sexual identity. And I, I've disentangled and kind of deconstructed a lot about sexual identity from what I have believed in the past to being very queer for me now and there. My experience with this right now is that I don't really need to put a ton of pressure on myself to figure it out or like all of it or to figure it out right now, or to do it in this like way. I want to do this in a healthy way. And that's my intention. And also, like, I'm not so worried about getting the correct answer for my life, right? Because I kind of know that I've always changed and I'll continue to, like, morph the way I see myself and, and I'm allowed to feel flexible about that. Yeah. And so I don't want to put a ton of pressure on myself of like, you know, not that I don't like to tell my friends, like, am I really gay? I don't know. Like, maybe like not that I don't have a 3% where. 

Brian [01:35:44] Am I right. 

Meg [01:35:45] Now? But that I don't have to put a ton of pressure on figuring out that now or ever. Yeah, because what will work for me now will work and what won't will come up later. Yeah, like if I'm good to myself and I'm good to the people around me, I really don't need to have all the answers that comes back to the true thing is what is true may not be true and I've experienced truth and been wrong. And so I'm just not going to cling to it so tightly that I can't move forward. Yeah. 

Brian [01:36:16] Gaby and I were kind of talking about a new family motto, and not that we had an old one, but were kind of like, we're kind of leaning into the idea of explore and express. 

Meg [01:36:25] Mm hmm. 

Brian [01:36:25] Instead of Let's have a destination in five years. We're here in ten years. From here, you know, let's just explore and express ourselves and figure out what fits. 

Meg [01:36:34] And yeah, that's totally a for me. I mean, I might still am. Yeah. 

Brian [01:36:39] Yeah. It's just that's something that's just started to resonate with me in the last little bit, that it's like, does you, do you have to replace the we have all the answers and this is where you are when you're, you know, you've got to. And I did that for a long time. I did that. And there were parts of it that were good and that served me well, and I've learned from it. And I would go back and do some of them again. And there are other parts that make me sick to my stomach and I can't believe that I was that person. And I feel like I need to atone for it and I don't want to lock myself into that. Okay, so scratch that ten year plan. Let's come up with a new one. Now let's. 

Meg [01:37:15] Open. 

Brian [01:37:16] Be open, explore and express. Just kind of. And will you make some mistakes? Probably just like you did in the past. When you have the when you had all the answers and you knew what the plan was? Yeah, you'd. 

Meg [01:37:25] Probably be around to put yourself down for those mistakes anymore. Yeah, that's the thing is like, you don't have all the right answers. You don't know what you don't know. And, like, we're going to mess that up either. Have to feel ashamed of that. Yeah. Because also it kind of doesn't matter, right? If it hurts people, it matters. Yeah, it kind of doesn't. Most things don't matter that much. No. 

Brian [01:37:42] Yeah. And I think it's important to distinguish between hurting people or offending people. Yeah, right. You're going to offend people that you're going to. 

Meg [01:37:49] Offend before I offend tons of people all the time and always have. Yeah. And I realize, oh it is different than hurting people. I'm totally willing to offend people all day long. Let's do it. 

Brian [01:38:00] That just tells me I'm going to leave your table. Yeah, I'm at the wrong table. Oh, I'm sorry. I'm out of here. Yeah, I should be sitting here. This bothers you? Oh, okay. You need to leave, because I. We were all here first. 

Meg [01:38:12] And I'll do my best to educate, because I think that. I think that's important. When you're in a place of privilege, don't leave every table. Sometimes you teach. Yeah. 

Brian [01:38:20] But you also said you're not telling some people some things because you know, they're not going to pick up on it. They're not going to change. So that's now I know where you are, right? I can move on or I can mama bear you off of our table, one or the other. 

Meg [01:38:32] Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Brian [01:38:34] See, I'm not the one leaving the table every time either. 

Meg [01:38:37] Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah, I think. I think that's a pretty good explanation of how to take care of myself. I bet. I'll continue thinking on that question, because I think it's a really good question, because the honest truth is this is I think I kind of mentioned this at the very beginning. The conversation I was having with Gaby earlier this morning was she asked me and it's kind of on my mind. She asked me like, Are you in pain? And it's funny. And I kind of and looking at that question with the question of like, how do you take care of yourself? Of course you can take care of yourself if you're in pain. And I don't just like depending on the day a little bit, but I should be really honest and like I don't always take care of myself. I think I should be really honest with that because yeah, sometimes when I'm in pain, like, like I want to say like, oh, it looks like I have it all together, but I don't, I might give like some interesting answers and some of my best thoughts, like, you know, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't scare me that my life is in flux. It doesn't mean that I feel hopeless when you know, something comes up politically or in my friend group or with my family. I think, I think I, I think we all carry pain. And part of me was like this morning when she was like, I probably look like I'm in pain because I'm very tired. I have not been able to get good sleep recently, but I, I started trying to like dig more into that question. And I think, I mean, I had a million thoughts about it, actually, but I think that I do carry a pretty decent amount of pain. And I don't know if there's an amount of taking care of myself that alleviates. I'm like, okay, go to therapy for your traumatic pain and go to, you know, like do the things sleep well and eat well and exercise and do it. But I think there's chronic emotional pain that doesn't necessarily heal. And it's actually an interesting thought that I said chronic because that reminds me of being sick. I was sick in a way that I expected to be chronic and last my entire life. There was no sign of getting better. Nothing was working. I just I really thought that was the rest of forever. And I'm just, you know, I have no idea why, but I'm grateful that I do have a much more functioning body now. But in that sense of and a lot of people do deal with chronic pain and you don't really get to get out of that no matter how well I took care of myself or how much sleep I got or like, you know, and, and I think in some sense that relates to this question that you've asked is some of my pain is quite chronic, and I think I can attempt to put Band-Aids over like a gushing wound, but particularly effective. Yeah. And, you know, I'm not necessarily convinced that we can that we will heal all of our wounds. I think a lot of our wound, especially our deepest wounds, the ones that originate from like abuse or, you know, deeply conditioned beliefs from being very young or being in a high demand religion or experiencing trauma or a million other things being oppressed. I wonder if we just manage that for the rest of our lives rather than actually like really totally heal. And it's interesting because that feels quite dismal when I think about that for too long. Yeah, it's like, Oh, I really don't want my life. Just feel like this forever. But it might. And I've been told by people I trust professionally. Yeah, like that one. You'll probably just have to manage forever. And it's hard. It's hard to hear that, and it's hard to feel like there won't be a reprieve, but I think there can be like small move as a reprieve. And I think it's important to realize that, you know, we don't. I think growth is so important. It's like my hope is the same, you know? But I don't think that our whole lives I think we should try really hard to grow as people and to self improve. And I also think if we focus our whole lives on that, we might forget to enjoy what we're experiencing. And I forget this all the time. I want to be a better person, but also like be nice to like just go breathe some fresh air sometimes and like play with one of my nieces and you know, we can enjoy life and in time passing by and not have to be so wrapped up in caring for ourselves and caring for others and trying to better, like incessantly. I think that's something I've tried to deconstruct too, because I think those were concepts I learned in religion that served me very well and others that I think are taken to an extreme in a way that I need to actively combat and just to be like, okay, yeah, of pain. But I really don't feel that pain when I'm X-Y-Z Yeah. And I don't want to distract my whole, like, distract myself from my pain and other people's pain my whole life. That would be irresponsible and unethical, I think. But it is okay to go get a breath of relief and not okay. I think that's probably a pretty decent priority just like though exists for a while. Like you don't have to keep improving and like taking care of yourself and pampering or whatever. Yeah, you don't have to always be fighting this battle. You can you can really just exist for a while if you want. And I forget that. I think a lot. I think that's a way that maybe I, I don't always prioritize caring for myself, but. 

Brian [01:44:14] It sounds like it will be moving forward. Maybe. 

Meg [01:44:17] Yeah, we'll see. 

Brian [01:44:18] My nieces are going to get a busy year, so. 

Meg [01:44:20] I'm. 

Brian [01:44:20] Going to get some ice cream and a trip to the zoo. 

Meg [01:44:23] You know? So, you know, that's kind of what I want to say about the thing. It's just kind of been mulling around in my brain, like, you know, maybe Gabby's like, sees some pain that I'm not necessarily acknowledging, which I could very easily attribute to the last few weeks. My life has unexpectedly needed to change in many facets, and it has been very stressful and very emotional. It comes with a lot of loss and that's been painful for me. And I think it's good too, to maybe be seen on that and to make myself kind of thing like, Oh, am I in pain? Like maybe I'm in more pain than I'm letting off and like not invalidate my pain. Like, Oh, other people have it so much worse. Like I got set to fall back on and I've got, you know, definitely going to be okay. 

Brian [01:45:07] And you have. 

Meg [01:45:08] Pain and I have been like that inside out, like the core memories are there like different colors of that? And I love that analogy and I, I find it to be very relevant. Yeah. 

Brian [01:45:18] I love the combination of joy and anger that came from hockey. Mm. Yes, I relate to that. 

Meg [01:45:25] Mm hmm. Yeah. Thanks for indulging me with that one. 

Brian [01:45:30] Oh, my pleasure. I mean, I really enjoyed our time together. I can't tell you how much it's helped me and how much one. I just enjoyed getting to know you, but likewise. 

Meg [01:45:41] Thank you. I should get to know you more. I did take the mic a bit. No. 

Brian [01:45:46] No. Yeah. No, that. That's what it's about. I want to tell your story. I want to introduce you to the. To the world and make you a stranger that everybody knows and feels comfortable with. And then thank you for being so open and sharing your story that's not an easy thing. Those emotions once brought up don't just go back down again so they'll follow you home. And hopefully you had some good ones. I know I did. I needed to hear a lot of that. I learned a lot and felt a lot today. And I really appreciate that. 

Meg [01:46:14] Good luck with your vulnerability hangover as well. 

MUSIC

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