Meg - Friendly Refuge

STRANGERS YOU KNOW

Episode 109 - Meg “Friendly Refuge”

Meg [00:00:04] And we were coming to Utah and we were meeting for lunch and I decided, like me not telling her, I was wearing short sleeved shirts like you couldn't tell I was wearing garments or anything. And I was like, I just can't tell her. Like, I, I, I'm not ready for rejection one. 

Brian [00:00:17] My best. Yeah. So we're, we're having. 

Meg [00:00:20] Lunch and we're sitting and talking and she's she's like, I just like, I haven't really been to church lately. 

Brian [00:00:28] And like, kind of like she brought it up?

Meg [00:00:30] She brought it up. And I was like. I haven't been lately. She's like. Have you been listening to Mormon stories? And I'm like, Oh, and you're like way out there. And so we had this lunch both going into I don't want to tell the other person, because, we were so scared. 

Brian [00:00:52] Right. And respecting each other so much. Right. And couldn't afford to lose that. 

Meg [00:00:57] Yeah! Respecting our space and what you have to learn through leaving. And we I just I remember we both just, like, got teary eyed, like, "Are you leaving the church?" She's like, Yeah, I think I/m leaving. And I'm like, I left like, I'm, I'm out and I haven't really been public about it. And it was still it is one of the greatest experiences of my life because not only did I have my friend who understood me, but we were in the exact same place. So we we were in like a new place of refuge. 

[00:01:26] MUSIC 

Brian [00:01:30] If this podcast continues to grow, it will be due to having wonderful strangers who share their stories and vulnerable insights into their lives. Outside of our recorded conversations, I ask each of my guests to recommend someone who they think would be a good person to have on the show. Today's guest, Meg, comes from one of those blind referrals. Before recording today's conversation, I had only spent 10 minutes with her on a phone call. Almost complete strangers, she and I recorded the longest conversation to date. I am thrilled with being able to get to know her during this episode, and I'm so happy we had the opportunity to connect, talk about personally meaningful topics and of course share the entire experience with you. Meg is a warm, wonderful human who is living her best life. Her happiness and her open, genuine nature immediately makes her a Stranger You want to Know. 

[00:02:17] MUSIC 

Brian [00:02:19] So, tell me... 

Meg [00:02:20] I'm so excited. 

Brian [00:02:23] How you're feeling coming into this? 

Meg [00:02:25] Yeah, I. You know, it's kind of funny. I never thought I would do something like this. There was a time where I was leaving organized religion, and I thought I was going to be someone else around people so they would feel comfortable and I wouldn't have to introduce who I was authentically. And now here I am a few years later, and I'm like really talking about it on a podcast. And so I feel like I've done just the 180 on being myself and being I know who I represent myself as, and this is great. I'm just really excited for, I don't know, just these steps I'm taking. It feels really good to just be myself and not have to worry about what other people think. Because I feel this really to be around the right people, I guess, you know? 

Brian [00:03:13] Yeah. So tell me a little bit about that process. Do you think do you think that's what it is? Do you think it's just you're trying to find your yourself and be more authentic for yourself? Or is there something else involved? 

Meg [00:03:25] Um, I mean, I think twenties are a. 

Brian [00:03:27] Wild ride to. 

Meg [00:03:29] Twenties are definitely not what I expected them to be and that is totally great. I have really enjoyed my twenties and what it's taught me and I've been I've been pretty authentic. I say, like especially past year and a half, I've been pretty soured on leaving the church and who I am, what I believe in. Um, I would have been really scared to say that I left the church, that I am like pro-choice. I, but I'm very career driven and not looking at motherhood necessarily right now, maybe later on in my life. But those are things that were just they were very hidden and now I was outward with it. And so I think I'm still getting comfortable talking about those and being being myself and being okay with myself. But at the same time, I've just I'm attracted such wonderful people in my life because of the honesty that I've been with myself the past half year, year and a half. And so at the end of the day, I'm just I'm so grateful. It's been really hard to some relationships, the other relationships. It's just been so great. I've been so happy with my friendships, some of my family friendships. It's just been good, it's been. 

Brian [00:04:43] Hard about has been. 

Meg [00:04:45] Really rewarding as well. 

Brian [00:04:47] Well, so you've mentioned several positives that you're feeling more comfortable, you've made some good friends, you're feeling more maybe genuine, authentic. Are there any other positive parts of it that have come with that, with being more. 

Meg [00:05:02] Um, I think anxiety has gone down to I, I still have a little bit. Um, I, I was recently this kind of ties in, I was recently diagnosed with ADHD, which was a wild ride too. Made a lot of sense like that that checks out of the college was kind of rough and high school. There is a lot of signs that also runs in my family so I don't know why we never thought that test me and this is something medicated for that my anxiety has been a very I don't know I think have been more rare where occasions where I feel anxious but also just not worry about what other people think. That's also a very anxiety driven, a feeling of worrying about what other people think. And I fear you kind of come out as yourself that's kind of like, oh, I'm kind of moved on from letting people decide who I am. I'm just going to be outwardly myself and kind of help tone down the anxiety of it. Yeah, just letting it be. Yeah. So mental health is definitely improved. 

Brian [00:06:04] Good. Yeah. 

Brian [00:06:06] So I got caught this morning. We, I say recently, six months ago, we redid parts of our kitchen and we changed some drawers. So I am still reaching into the wrong drawer for silverware because we moved it from here to there. I mean. 

Brian [00:06:25] Yeah. 

Brian [00:06:27] Tell me some of the habits that you're finding that you're like, Oh, wait, I don't do that anymore. I look at it this way. Have you caught yourself with any of that? Yes. Why do I keep thinking that this is a thing or. 

Meg [00:06:43] Oh, my gosh, this has been something I've actually been really working with the last few weeks. I, I left the classroom. I'm a teacher, and I love the classroom. I've been trying to find a different avenues through education that I really want to be involved with and what I'm passionate with. And so I've been looking more into international education sales, and I have great interviews lined up and it's been so great, but the interview process is so scary. And also just seeing myself in the classroom and always envisioning myself in the classroom versus being a salesman. I have been so down on myself like this is not who I am, this is not what I've been taught to do. And also my two of my brothers are salesmen. And so I look at like the traits that they have and the traits that I have. And I felt so separated from them. And I just caught myself talking down myself so bad that I am not confident that I don't know what I'm doing, that I'm not going to be able to perform well. And I actually it's just so funny. I've been like doing sales. I've done sales multiple times. I was in Ukraine and I had to do sales there when I had to sell the products for more teachers to come over and take over social media, I had to do a whole I was working with a different school in Ukraine. He recruit teachers. Once I was back in the States and I had to recruit teachers to go over there. And it's so funny. I've been doing these things that are asked of me in these interviews and I've just been so insecure about it. But it's just I think it's just because I just saw my role so differently. At almost 25, I thought I would be a mom by now. I thought I would not really have a career. And now that those are kind of flopped and I want to just really thrive in a career, I feel so. I'm at war with confidence in that because it's not what I thought I was going to do. And I have just realized so much the past few weeks I've been interviewing, I'm like, Oh my gosh, I need to be so much better myself. So their life has turned around differently and it's looking different. But that's been so weird. That's and as my mother has off the table. But it's just not not where I'm going right now. And it's weird how that as a woman, it kind of changes your confidence on where you feel like your life is going. It's you don't believe in yourself going in a different direction and. Yeah, and rough, but good too. 

Brian [00:09:13] I think I think you hit on an important point and maybe I can get you to clarify on that a little bit. 

Meg [00:09:18] Yeah. 

Brian [00:09:21] You are. Path was been has been kind of set for you. 

Brian [00:09:27] Oh yeah. 

Brian [00:09:28] This is your path and this is what you'll be. And then at this age you'll be a mom, and at this age you'll be. And what I've heard, heard you say is not where you thought you would be. I'm kind of interpreting and taking some liberties, saying not where you were, not where you were told you should be, but now you are that habit. Changing that silverware door for you isn't where you're told you should be. It is. What do you want? 

Meg [00:09:58] Yeah. 

Brian [00:09:59] And that kind of creates a new pathway in your mind, in your life to say, well, maybe if I do want this, maybe I can be this, maybe I can. And I also heard you say that's not a thing for now. 

Brian [00:10:15] Yeah. 

Brian [00:10:15] And open that. Hey, this other changes happened, and I'm sure we'll get into more details on that. But there's other changes happen. Who's to say things aren't going to change moving forward? But for right now, where I am, I'm comfortable listening to myself say this is what I want now. 

Brian [00:10:34] Yeah. 

Brian [00:10:35] So I don't know. I ask a question in there someplace. I felt like I wanted to. I don't know if I got there. 

Brian [00:10:40] No, no. You know, you clarify. 

Meg [00:10:42] No, that's exactly it. Because that was how I was really raised and also not even being raised that way. But I didn't really have anyone to look up to as a woman who went to career out. And I really didn't have someone look up to in that way until I really got married. My husband sister is very driven in her career and she's married and doesn't have kids and I know like kids are still on her radar. I'm not sure how she's decided that route, but I just the past five or six years, I've been able to look up to her and go, oh, my gosh, like you have achieved so many of your goals, of your dreams. And she was really like the first person that I was able to look up to. And so I think also just. Not having an example of what else life could look like makes you feel very insecure because if there's no one to look out on what you want to do, you kind of feel alone in that. You kind of feel like what my decisions are. What I kind of aspired to do are rare and almost are wrong in the women field, you know? And there's nothing to say to a woman in my life I grew up with I, I love the woman I grew up with. My mom and I are very close and I love the skills I learned as her being my mother and other people around me, being mothers, very nurturing. And I, I think a lot of my nurturing nature comes from the amazing woman in my life. But it's been very scary, as if I wanted to do something else. The people you look up to that you know? Right. I mean, I can look up to celebrities. I can look up to I can read many books on women. And it's beautiful. And I feel empowered by having firsthand people, you know, that are kind of living the same. Like you look for kind of us in the Mormon world to look at life a little differently as a woman and kind of challenging that. Didn't expect it to be this challenging, but it's good. It's it's a it's a good thing, Mel, because then I got to figure things out for myself and really ask myself, what do I want? Rather than looking directly at someone's path and following it rather than, you know, hearing it. Like, I get to follow completely my own path. I get asked myself a million questions a day and figure it out. Through insecurity, through not knowing what I'm doing. But it's okay. 

Brian [00:13:11] So where so many good questions. 

Brian [00:13:14] Yeah. 

Brian [00:13:15] Where do you get the support to do that now? Because obviously you've got a lot of decisions. You know, you're breaking tradition, among other things, in choosing this path. When you have so many of those decisions in such a rapid timeframe, where are you finding your support? 

Meg [00:13:37] Oh, my husband. What a homie. He is like my first. He's my best friend. He's my therapist. He's my he's my cheerleader. He really like without his support, without his guidance, without his listening ear, without just who he is, I don't know where I'd be. I don't know if he's given me the ability to feel confidence and know that there's confidence to be felt. Yeah. 

Brian [00:14:05] That's awesome. 

Meg [00:14:06] He's been awesome. I'm very, very lucky to have him is wonderful. Is is at times I say it's like a joke between us and like sometimes you're a bigger feminist than I am. 

Brian [00:14:17] Like he is. 

Meg [00:14:18] This is so for women's rights and women choosing for themselves and choosing the path that's right for them. And at times he'll go on rants about it. I'm like, Oh, this I love, this is our home. And I get to hear my husband talk about how cool women are. 

Brian [00:14:33] Yeah. 

Brian [00:14:34] And he sounds like a great guy. I'd like to meet him sometime. 

Meg [00:14:36] He's so cool. 

Brian [00:14:37] The US has you mentioned that you both left the church together. 

Meg [00:14:43] Mhm. 

Brian [00:14:45] Have you. How big of a change have you noticed in him in that time frame as well. If you were just saying go back maybe three years, what is it, three or four years to now. 

Brian [00:14:56] Yeah. 

Brian [00:14:56] What's been the change you've seen in him the most. 

Meg [00:15:00] It's like. It's like he can really breathe now. He can really breathe. It's one of our favorite movies is Love Simon. Never seen love, Simon. And when he sits down with his mom and he said, Did you know, ladies, you know, I had a secret. And she said, I knew you had something, but I'm just glad you can breathe now. Like you go and breathe and live your life. And we watched them recently and I'm like, that's how I feel is Mormonism. And leaving it is just and that's how I have felt as I've seen him, as I was, I've seen him grow and appreciate his self in a new way and appreciate, I don't know, like looking at life differently. It's I feel like I can truly see him breathe with who he is. And it's beautiful. As much as I love how I've grown, it is so cool to see firsthand seeing someone else grow, especially someone so close to you. It's relieving. It's beautiful. It's. Yeah. Especially when you're in love with. It's really, it's a cool experience to see someone let go of things that were harming them. 

Brian [00:16:11] Yeah. That is a beautiful thing. And my heart goes out to there are a lot of couples and families that I know where one spouse has made a decision to leave the church and the other one hasn't. And I just can't imagine that that dynamic, because my wife and I, she probably left a little bit ahead of me, but I've always had her there for support. Yeah. And I just yeah. I just imagine how difficult that would be because I love watching her grow and become. More. More her. More, more. More, more. Her essence. Yeah. And just finding that and just feeling like. No, it is. It's it's me. It's up to me. I get to choose and I get to decide. And I don't have that. That weight. 

Meg [00:16:59] I love that. 

Brian [00:17:01] We talked about some of the benefits of that you've noticed since you've left the church. Let's talk about some of the costs. 

Brian [00:17:10] Yeah. 

Brian [00:17:12] Not only some of the pain, but what what that has cost you. If you if you if you want and I should say, I'm going to I'm going to preface this because I always I usually say this at the beginning, but feel free to change the topic. Whatever. Tell me you're not comfortable. Say, I asked you a stupid question. A better question would be this one. Don't feel like you need to answer anything or. 

Brian [00:17:34] I'm pretty open. 

Brian [00:17:35] Again. I don't want it to be a Q&A session. I don't want it to be an interview. I want it to be a conversation. So if where I jump off of a topic too soon, catch me and say, Hey, can we go back to that? There are still a few things that I want to talk about and I want to know how I did that or whatever. 

Meg [00:17:50] So totally. I'm yeah, absolutely. I'm pretty open. I yeah, I feel good talking and but yeah, I'll let you know if something comes up that I don't forget. Okay. So far, yeah, I don't think there's anything. 

Brian [00:18:04] Because I. 

Brian [00:18:04] Know some of this can be painful and triggering. I mean. 

Brian [00:18:07] Yeah, I mean. 

Meg [00:18:08] There might be times where I get emotional and I'm good as that emotion. 

Brian [00:18:12] I'm good with that. And, and another thing, if I ask you a question, don't feel like you need to hurry and jump in with an answer. 

Meg [00:18:19] Yeah. 

Brian [00:18:20] Take all the time you want and think about it. And if I need to go back and edit 10 seconds out or a minute out or whatever while you're thinking about the right answer, instead of saying Too often when we have when you have interviewed, you have to jump in with an answer right after they finish a question, right in a conversation. That's not the case. You can take a few minutes and. Yeah. And pause and say that is I haven't thought about that for a while. Let me think about how I would adjust how the new me would would react to that. 

Brian [00:18:47] Yeah. 

Meg [00:18:48] So yeah I love that. Oh and I know I heard it in, in Jackson's interview. I think you call it colorful language. 

Brian [00:18:57] Or what you call it. Sometimes I get that colorful, like. Is that what you call it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Meg [00:19:03] Sometimes that gets thrown in there. Is that okay? 

Brian [00:19:05] That's fine. Yeah. Okay, yeah. Beat you, be yourself. 

Meg [00:19:09] Cool. 

Brian [00:19:10] Yeah. Sometimes it's a little. Yeah. 

Brian [00:19:14] So. Yeah. 

Meg [00:19:17] Let's see what were the. 

Brian [00:19:19] So the question. 

Brian [00:19:20] Was. 

Brian [00:19:20] Talk about the cost. Yeah. And maybe then maybe some of the pain points but certainly some of the costs that, you know, you had to pay. 

Meg [00:19:28] Yeah, I think. I think the first one that I really felt and I'm still working through it, but I think the biggest shocker, the biggest shocker of everything is seeing how conditional love is and. That's been a very thorough is a very dark process that sucked. Seeing how just a decision it wasn't even conversations I had with people because I've been I've been pretty quiet. It's been pretty it's been important for me to like post on social media that I am ex-Mormon because I want to I don't want to be associated with it anymore. So it's been important to me to have people know, but I haven't been very big about posting my beliefs. I haven't been I haven't been anyone like, you know, like on the shelf or, you know, even like Mormon stories who really educate. I just know, like, if people know where I'm at religiously, they know who to come to with questions. And so I haven't been even really outward with. You know, finding things out about the church and talking about it and then people getting upset at me and not wanting a relationship with me because I do understand that I wasn't very religious and I understand people's safe place. And if I'm if I'm knocking down that safe place, I get it. I understand. But it's been very painful. And just the sentence of I love the church and seeing how many people have backed away from me just based on that. And that was what was surprising to me because I had my goal was to be very respectful of other people's faith, especially like half my family, still very involved. And it's important for me to have a relationship with my family. And so I just made the calls to be respectful and not. In the beginning I did. In the beginning I did talk to my mom and I realized very quickly that was not the way we were going to preserve a really healthy relationship. 

Brian [00:21:35] And the beginning. You weren't respectful. 

Meg [00:21:37] I just as I was learning things, it was more like, hey, did you know that polygamy was a lot longer than we thought? And also there were teenagers involved and there was obviously there were babies born. So, I mean, sex was involved with teenagers. And I mean, just the fact like that where I'd come up with and immediately people like my it was mostly my mom. I would talk to my mom and I talked maybe two or three times with the conversation and I realized very quickly that there was a space that I was knocking down that was hers. And if she ever wanted to talk about things, if she ever had questions, she knows where to come. But it was more in the beginning on just me learning information, and I thought I was doing the right thing by going to your people right. Like, I don't know if you've experienced the same thing, but your first thought is like, Holy shit, do people know this? What do people know? And so you want to be like you want to be the word, you want to be like this is I didn't know this and I've been living and breathing this religion, right? And so people think of it as like, hey, you're trying to hurt my testimony or you are trying to attack the church, or you are you're just angry. And that's not how I felt. I really was like. I want to talk to my mom about this because she's one of my safe places. And I learned very quickly that, like, there's there's just some things you can't talk about that you can't bring up. And I think that's what people misunderstand about ex-Mormon is people are not trying to create a fight. People I think most people I would say most people don't want to create a fight. They don't want to. Hurt people. They don't want to tear down your home because so many people are foundation of their home is the bustle. I think people really have the interest because they see I was once there, I was once as strict of a believer as you. And you don't know everything. And I believe in just how we give consent to our bodies to be touched, to be loved, we have to give consent to dedicating our life to something. Just like how when we dedicate ourselves to go to college, we we have to we have to pay. We have to sign. We have to say, I'm going to dedicate myself to this university, especially university that says you have to be above this this grade point average. You have to dedicate yourself. And there's this you can know everything about a university before you step into it. And the church has had in so many things. And so when you find out those things, you want to go, you want to make sure people have given consent. And I think that's that's where I was very misunderstood in the beginning. And so I realized very quickly, I'm like, okay, I can't I can't do this. I'm going to hurt relationships. It's not good for me. It's not good for them. And and again, at the end of this, in order to come, they know where to go if they have questions. And that has happened multiple times with multiple friends where I've been so grateful they feel comfortable with me. But seeing relationships changed just based on that one statement of I'm next door and I am not in it and just. Seeing how many people let go of me based on that fact of people I have not had a single conversation with. Not like they don't even know what I believe. They have no idea my morals. And just seeing them let go. And then on top of that hearing the gossip, too. That's pretty rough because we my husband, I live in Arizona, both of our families from Utah, we have some family in Arizona. But hearing the gossip back at home and seeing how stories have changed and things are said, that we're not honest. And that's that's been rough, but it's been interesting. 

Brian [00:25:20] Do you think those stories were changed to make them not honest or do you think that they are? So I forgot this idea that people tell stories in their head in order to explain a reality that has changed on them. 

Meg [00:25:37] Absolutely. 

Brian [00:25:38] And when someone who was raised in the gospel to a good Mormon family chooses to leave. Everyone around them has to explain that somehow. 

Brian [00:25:50] Yeah. 

Brian [00:25:51] Right. And so you get the obvious answers. Oh, lazy learner wanted to sin. Whatever. I think it's difficult, especially for apostates, because. The people in your ward and your family. They know you're a good person. That's hard to explain. The church does a good job of separating the US from the them and says, Oh, from the LGBTQ community, for example. And it's easy to talk about them and their issues and their concerns. But when you know somebody that's, um, that's there, you're like, Yeah, but not, not Jackson. 

Brian [00:26:39] Right. Jackson's awesome, right? 

Brian [00:26:42] And they said, when you left the church, everyone knew you. Yeah. And they're like, No, but her. So they have to either do one of two things. They have to come up with a story that doesn't have to be true. It has to make sense for them about why you left. And the simpler that is and the easier they can grasp on to that, the more they can realize that their testimony and their children and their family and their relationships, they're all still safe because you were a lazy learner, whatever, whatever the story is that they need to tell. And maybe there's something in your background that they're like, Yeah, we should have caught this piece back then. Remember when she said this or did this then that's what funnels their story, right? I don't know if they're coming up with lies necessarily, but just an explanation that they can. 

Brian [00:27:32] Yeah. 

Brian [00:27:33] They can say, oh, that explains it. The other way to do it is to ask a question. And how many people have reached out to you? That says, hey, I just I'm curious, do you mind if I ask, what was it that caused you to leave the church? 

Meg [00:27:52] Mm hmm. 

Brian [00:27:52] Have you had anybody ask you that? 

Meg [00:27:54] I have. I have. And I've had I had some very respectful, kind people reach out and ask some people, you kind of understand people's motives with their first question. You're kind of understanding like, oh, do you really want to know? Are you trying to stay up there? You know? And one of the coolest things, it was something that was so scary for me. I think I told you about the the tick tock that I posted on social media. It was after Brad Wilcox's horrible youth conference, whatever or whatever it was an award. And I, I watched the whole thing, and I, I couldn't believe. Just I mean, how many different groups of people that he offended. And that was that was pretty unbelievable. I was I was incredibly upset by it because I'm so I'm so done with the church talking about me and talking about ex Mormons or people who are who have left because I'm I just want to be left alone. And they talk to my family and they talk to my friends and they listen. And at the end of the day, I know that my family is going to choose the church. And so when those hurtful things said, it's very it's scary because I don't I don't know. It's going to be sad. Eventually. There could be something I said that can really wreck my relationship with my family that we've worked so hard on. And so when I came out, that was incredibly frustrating and that's when I thought people knew by that point, I mean everyone that at least for sure, close family and friends. Absolutely. But I didn't know how many people that just knew me as like how many people knew. And so after that, I was like, for sure, I don't associated with this. I don't want any association with this man, let alone this organization that accepts this man to say these things in front of kids. And so that's when I posted my TikTok and said, you know, there's that background noise of Elder Ballard's voice of where are you going to go? What are you going to do? Very condescending words of We have a monopoly on unhappiness, which is very not true and just represent the happiness that I've experienced since leaving one of them. And I was terrified. I am born and raised Davis County, Utah, and I was terrified what kind of messages I was going to get, and especially someone who is a recovering people pleaser. I was so scared. I was so scared. I did not receive a single hurtful message. I know people were out there thinking some things. I received dozens of messages of people asking me for help and how do I leave the church and keep a relationship with my family? How do I lose the church and keep a relationship with my spouse? How do I leave the church and not kill myself? And I could not. That was not the response I was expecting. I just like I went to Vermont. Like that school was mainly Mormon and people were reaching out to me that I have not heard from in ten years. People I don't even know that still followed me on social media, and that was incredibly eye opening on just how many people are silent and who are scared and feel like their morals no longer align with the church, but feel like if they are not involved. It will hurt them or hurt their family. Hurt their. Hurt their morals, too. It's a very confusing time to figure out your morals after the church. And so those messages, those are just some of my favorite messages I've gotten from people. And just all I can do is share my experience. A lot of it can be wrong or I can misguide people, but all I can do is share how I got where I was or where I am now. 

Brian [00:31:47] So you feel you had someone like that that you could reach out to, or do you feel like you were just flailing along on your own? 

Meg [00:31:55] Um. 

Brian [00:31:56] I mean, you had your husband. 

Meg [00:31:58] Yeah, I had my husband with me, and he was. He's probably a few steps ahead of me for a minute, maybe for, like, a solid, like, maybe three weeks, three or four weeks where we were like really diving deep and he was probably ahead a little bit. And so he was definitely in a place where I could go to where I felt safe. And we never, like, argued or never had like tension between us. It was just like I just felt he was moving really quickly through it and I was just taking my own pace. Um, my husband has two sisters who were out of the church, and they've been out for a while. They've known that they're teenagers. And so they. You know, not experiencing temple marriage, not experiencing endowments, not experiencing, like, really selling your life to the church. It felt good to vent to them or to have them understand life outside of the church. They were very, very good to me as I. Was exploring myself outside the church as far as receiving empathy and understanding of someone who had lived through it all and then left. That was a little more tricky. Somewhere we really turn to as Mormon stories. And that was definitely a place where I felt safe. And the crazy thing was one of the first Mormon stories we listened to. Her name's Leslie, and she was a jazz dancer. And that was that was the I think the second one we ever listened to. And as we're listening, my husband goes, Oh, my gosh, I went to high school with her. I know exactly who this is. And he's like, I knew they had the same name, but like Leslie in that kind of it's a pretty popular name. And so he's like, Oh my gosh, I know she went to dance for the Jazz. And so we listened to her whole story. And then he actually reached out to her and said, I don't know if you remember my remember me from high school. I always know you were a great kid and we were never in the same friend group. But I always really respected you and I know my wife and I listened to your story and to feel connection with someone that I went to school with meant a lot to us, so just resounds that thank you. And she was so kind back and just reached out and takes us back and said, I'm so glad you're going through this. I hope you feel safe. I hope you feel comfortable. If you ever need anyone to talk to, I'm here for you. And so that's really what comes my she was the first person where we could see and she was Marie in the temple too. She was married and divorced and went through everything. And she she was an off. I knew. I know she was. But just because my husband knew her, she was the first person who we could connect with that made it out. Those kind of you need to find someone who made it out and who are, like, thriving after the middle section. Very dark. It's a very confusing place to be. And not having someone to look at that's way more certain. So you can see how people have transformed their lives into a healthy, healthy place. Yeah. So. 

Brian [00:34:54] Well, I think there's a lot to be said from, from knowing someone has been there before. 

Brian [00:34:59] Yeah. 

Brian [00:35:00] And you and, and because I think that mostly makes you feel like I'm not the only one who feels this way because there is a part of you that's like, I know I'm not the first person to leave, but I don't didn't. I'm the only one that question this or felt this way or was so angry or whatever. 

Meg [00:35:22] Especially from northern Utah. You feel. 

Brian [00:35:24] Very alone. 

Brian [00:35:26] Yeah. Because the few people that have left as as much as the church likes to say, people can leave the church, they just can't leave it alone. I think it's a small percentage of people that feel that way. But I also think that that number of people that are leaving are is so big that that small percentage now has a big, louder voice. Yeah. And I think a lot of it is because they realize how, how helpful it was to hear someone else's story and they want to be there for other people to say, hey, love, love isn't conditional, it is hard, but you have friends that are here to help, not to convince, not to change your mind, not to whatever. I just. We're here for you. 

Brian [00:36:14] Yeah. When someone said close. 

Brian [00:36:16] Personal family relationships were not there for you, some of your friends. 

Brian [00:36:20] Certainly. 

Brian [00:36:21] I was there for you until right there. And then that's where. That's where we say goodbye. 

Meg [00:36:26] Yeah. It's such a confusing place to be because you like, as you said, I can leave the church, but I can't leave it alone. And that's how people perceive it. And I it's so hard to they understand. I have been on that side of religion and understanding, feeling like other people are trying to take down your religion. And I definitely like I really do want to say like my husband and I have made mistakes with how we have as family or talk to family. And it's a very difficult place to be. And I don't want to say that and say I'm making excuses for mistakes or not being respectful because we could have absolutely done better. We take responsibility for that and we apologize to people who are like we, who we felt like we weren't being respectful for what their their needs were and what our need for, because they're very different now. It's just so it's very confusing because you want to go you want to go to the people who you thought you could talk to in the short term about anything, you know. And at the same time, it's very interesting. But before that, before people knew that I left the church even when I was like on my faith journey. And they didn't know. And as far as they knew, I was still Mormon. I would ask a question and it would be so accepted and turn into a beautiful conversation like, for example, garments. I hated those since the moment I put them on and be able to talk about garments. When you're in the church, people are like, Oh yeah, there's the worse. They're so uncomfortable. We don't like them. If you think about that as an ex-Mormon, you are not accepted in that conversation like you were before, even though you're talking about the same statement. Then make sense. Yeah. Like people are way more turned off to what you have to say because they think you kind of sound like a dangerous place. I guess I understand. I, I get it. But it's as you're trying to read minds and see where other people stand and try to explain to them where you're standing and where you want to find common ground, but also you want to make sure they're giving consent to give their lives to this organization. You really are trying to look out for people. And when that's misinterpreted, it's so confusing. I'm sure you felt. 

Brian [00:38:43] This confusion decisively. 

Brian [00:38:45] You chose to be baptized when you're eight. You gave consent. You you consented and agreed to sacred vows in the temple. Granted, it was before you knew what they were for. Yeah, yeah. It's kind of a weird. 

Brian [00:39:03] So weird. 

Brian [00:39:05] Backwards. It's a little from this side, and I don't want to speak lightly of it because I have a lot of friends that I respect that yeah. Could, could be offended by it and I don't want to offend them. I don't. 

Meg [00:39:22] Yeah. 

Brian [00:39:23] It's not difficult. It's so difficult. 

Brian [00:39:25] You don't know if you're going to offend them or what topic is really going to set them off until you have that conversation. And then it's like it's too late. I didn't know that talking about garments, I mean, because a couple of years ago I mentioned something and we laughed about it and now I mentioned it and I am shunned. I mean. 

Brian [00:39:43] Absolutely. 

Brian [00:39:44] We'll never have a conversation again. 

Meg [00:39:46] Isn't that so hard? Like you? It's like I've brought this up before as a mormon, but now, like, this isn't the thing that made me leave. But this is the thing that's always been hard for me. Like in the church, out of the church, this is something that's been continuously has been difficult. And talking about it when you're Mormon verses and ex-Mormon, it's taken a completely different way and and you are seen as an unsafe place. And so but then at the same time, when people have something that questions and it's very like people who are coming very innocently and they really their plans are not to leave the church or even to like look into church history or doctrine. It's just to ask a question. And then you can kind of tell when I've gone too far, like, oh, let me answer that. And they're like, whoa, whoa, whoa. I'm like, Oh, sorry. Okay, I understand where the places that that we're trying to meet. 

Brian [00:40:38] Right. 

Meg [00:40:39] You know, you kind of answer questions in the way people need, but also. Being a mind reader, it's difficult. You don't know where people want to be. 

Brian [00:40:49] I can't read my own mind half the time. I'm not going to be good at doing reading yours. Yeah. So kind of. You mentioned earlier. That most of. Not in this conversation, but I believe a previous conversation. In your email. Mm hmm. You talked about your research about the church that kind of was all off of. You made a specific point to say it was all from the church website. 

Meg [00:41:21] Now. 

Brian [00:41:22] Why why is why is that a big deal that the literature that you followed that kind of scared you were convinced you were built your case one way or the other? It came from the church website. Why is that a big deal? I mean, explain that to people that are not LDS, that aren't familiar with the. What does it matter? Truth is truth and facts are facts. And you find them in the right place or you don't. I mean, does it matter where you they find. 

Brian [00:41:49] Facts are very skewed. 

Meg [00:41:53] I really think people who have devoted their entire life to the gospel, who are now ex-Mormon, I want to believe that people started the same way I did. I had some sincere questions and questions that were weighing on me. 24 seven. Were they. 

Brian [00:42:12] Internal issues or. 

Brian [00:42:14] Just everything? 

Meg [00:42:15] A doctrinal cultural like rules in the church? I guess like. 

Brian [00:42:22] Everything. 

Brian [00:42:22] Was just general balance. 

Meg [00:42:25] I mean, I heard that. I mean, polygamy was getting a pretty big deal and things. I didn't know how the Book of Mormon was translated wives of more than just Joseph Smith and Brigham Young that I was taught about polygamy. And I didn't even know I did not even know Joseph Smith was a polygamist until high school then. And that was like introduced to me. And it was crazy. It was actually my boyfriend at the time who asked me if I knew. And I was like, I don't believe that. I don't believe it was a polygamist. And I, like, completely turned it off. I was like 17. And he was like, Oh, okay. And then I like to look into it with. 

Brian [00:43:02] You, like that other side of that discussion. And he's like, Oh, there's a boundary there. We don't know that. 

Meg [00:43:07] Oh, I was like, I was so sure that that was not true. I was in high school. 

Brian [00:43:12] That was how you be true. 

Meg [00:43:15] How could it be just that fact? Not. Not who we married. Just by that point, I was like, Oh, he's marrying appropriate age to women. And then, okay. So then when I found that out, then it was like, Oh, there's is the typical answer. There is a shortage of men and women needed to have property and they cannot own property under their name. And I was like, Oh. 

Brian [00:43:37] Look, another way you could have solved that problem, but we'll skip that for now, right? 

Meg [00:43:41] I was like women's rights, but okay, we can. All right. That was solved later. So that was checked off for me. I was like, Oh, okay, I can accept that. And so then I moved on. And so then when this started coming up again, this was like winter, spring of 2019, 2020. And there's some good questions coming up. And this was also before the big General Conference I was about this, you know, 200 years after the first Division. And so I was just very curious. All of about conferences look like we had a lot of questions. And I can't remember if I was just in a very confusing place before that. If I read the essays before or after that General Conference I can't remember. It's all very fuzzy around that time. But I did start with the essays on the start of work. I started with those essays. I read every single one of them, and then the really weird part was finding those essays and finding links to. I don't know, like the correct verbiage, but how I mean, like how you could read something on Brigham Young and then you could see that he said something as, you know, and like the I don't know, as Utah State. And so then you would go over to what he said to the people of Utah, not even just Mormons. And you would find the most racist, insane, absolutely disgusting things that he said. And it was like tied to those documents and other things. I had no idea that Brigham Young believed. I don't know what is where would it be? Is like the Utah legislature is. I would that is then my saying that right. I, I blocked out a lot of the early dark memories. I haven't like the LDS essay since the very beginning, but that's where it started as well. And then oh my God, like I'm sure you've heard so many times before, General Conference they say, write all your questions down. And I promise when you watch General Conference, all of them will be answered. So my mind's just going. And again, I don't know if I read the essays before or after, but I had so many questions and they were mostly about Joseph and Emma and polygamy. And I it was like I probably had 25 questions at least, and I sat in front of TV for General Conference really like it was. I think that was like really the last moment I was really hanging on to my testimony and how strong it was. And after General Conference 24, questions remain out of 25, like 24. When I answered, the only one that was answered was Why are there so many accounts of the first vision? And they just touched on that a little bit. They talked about the four different records of the first visions, and so I was like, I cannot answer that. They were to address the four different versions and really see why I felt like and I, I was so discouraged after that. General Conference was so upset. And that was. 

Brian [00:46:41] Was that the beginning of the end, do you think that was. 

Meg [00:46:43] That? Oh, absolutely. I think before that was the beginning of. 

Brian [00:46:46] The end. 

Brian [00:46:47] Making the list of questions or even before. 

Brian [00:46:49] That. 

Meg [00:46:49] I'm just pondering thinking, being confused and. I felt very let down by that General Conference and all about Joseph Smith. And hardly anything was answered and they had the opportunity to make things right and they didn't. And I really think that that General Conference did more harm than good for people, because I think a lot of people in this nation, we me trying to find answers on why things were the way they were. And there was I don't think it was dishonesty that happened. It was just not addressing because it was all in very. We're going to tell the life of Joseph Smith. And I guess there is a science on dishonesty with how the Book of Mormon was translated and everything. But I think it was more just we want to have compassion for Joseph Smith, and we weren't talking about the facts of Joseph Smith. That was that was not a good time. I saw and just cried after that. General Conference was a horrible, horrible time. 

Brian [00:47:50] Anger you get you go through an angry all. 

Meg [00:47:53] Oh, hell, yeah. I was pissed. 

Brian [00:47:55] Off. What were who or what were you angry with? 

Meg [00:48:01] I always believe that Alan Joseph had beautiful love very with I was obsessed with the working of glory growing up. My parents had a book of Joseph and Endless Love Letters and published a dessert book, I'm sure. And that was something that I read when I was a kid. And as a little girl who loves fairy tales and also was very religious. I held on to Joseph and the Love and to find out that he betrayed her multiple times, I will say. Church history is it is very skewed. The one thing that is not here is Anna. I think she went through absolute hell with Joseph and she was not allowed to be angry like she should have. And she, the wife, she found out the after the burning of the printing press, she she was so mistreated as a wife. And we are just taught in the church that she was just so great and supportive and she did what she had to do. And I think she took that motherhood role to another level of nurturing those kids when she didn't know what the hell is going on. And I think she wanted to leave, too, though. I really think she had a testimony of some part of the church. But as soon as. The burning of the printing press and other dirty things that were happening. There some records of her being so discouraged and so confused. And as a woman, I can't imagine especially not having the rights we do now. I can't imagine being married to someone who was in prison for multiple times, not for creating a religion, but for very dirty things. 

Brian [00:49:57] So who were you angry at? 

Meg [00:50:00] Joseph. 

Brian [00:50:00] Joseph. So not just Joseph. 

Meg [00:50:03] Well, and the church, too, for hiding things because I and I felt like it was too tied to womanhood. It felt like because the church now is still not being honest about it. I feel like the church is dissing Emma too. I am there also just the rights in the church for women now. I felt like they all connected. Like Emma was not accepted. To feel what she felt was right. Or even just the confusion she felt. She. She was so upset about polygamy. She was so hurt. And that's not what she wanted. She loved Joseph, and she ruined the big part of her relationship with her parents to be with Joseph. And he betrayed her. And so knowing that and then tying it back to him and tying it to the church and then the lies I've been told about him and Emma and then how women are treated in the church. Now, it just felt like a big bow, tie it all together. Like I was angry. 

Brian [00:50:59] Or an angry. 

Meg [00:51:00] Yeah, seriously? Yeah, that was. Yeah, that was probably the first thing I was angry at was. Learning the truth of how Emma felt. And understanding why I shouldn't go with Brigham Young to I was like, Oh, that makes sense. Because I was always just told I heard so many stories. Like, she wasn't well enough to travel, but I was like, What? Multiple people? Not well. I was like, Why was she different? And she was the prophet's wife. Like, why didn't she go? And it was just always just kind of pushed back in lessons. And we didn't really talk about why I didn't go. Now I know that's. It was part of the reason she is not a safe place for anyone, especially how Brigham Young really was more sharp with things than Joseph started. I mean, with racism. With polygamy. Yeah. I don't think she felt like it was a safe place anymore. Based on what I read about her and then. Biography is a man that was a dark place. I felt. I felt guilty for not understanding her earlier, you know? 

Brian [00:52:16] Yeah. Because all that information was in all of the manuals, even from when you were a young woman and in primary songs. Oh, no. None of that was ever mentioned, even as a footnote. Right? I mean, we study a lot in the church, but. That's all kept out. 

Brian [00:52:31] Yeah. 

Brian [00:52:32] It's not the history. So you've got to this point where you you're angry at these historical figures and the injustice of it. And if Joseph is that type of person, can he be a prophet? And if he is not a prophet, then what does that say about the church and the Book of Mormon? And if the. Tell me a little bit about that transition. I know it's kind of all happening simultaneously. Yeah, but how do you work through separating all of that? And then on the far end of the of the of your answers, talk about what did you end up taking with you when you left the church? How did you decide what what stayed? Is there anything that you're grateful for that you're like these teachings or aspects I'm going to keep this is this is part of me. I mean. 

Meg [00:53:29] Yeah. Now that after that first step, it was a wonderful rabbit hole. 

Brian [00:53:37] Wonderful rabbit hole. 

Meg [00:53:38] Yeah. That rabbit hole is so deep now that is because then you go, okay, so I don't have Bill and Joseph. I'd have to agree with them. I agree with the Prophet now, right? Everyone goes to that stage and then you realize how much is how much is tied to the rest days. 

Brian [00:53:55] Prophets wouldn't. 

Brian [00:53:58] Yeah, but. 

Meg [00:53:59] Then yeah it's all tied together. And then there's this is, there's a point of no return of not being able to think how you thought before. And that's I really, I think that that's one of the biggest parts when you start realizing everything. It's like I always said this analogy, my husband, as we were finding all this out, did you ever watch how I met your mother? Oh, yeah, yeah. So you know that episode where they talk about each other's qualms and they have, like, this glass shattering noise? Like, when Marshall's like, Oh, we're not not Marshall. It's what's the guy's name like? Ted. Ted? 

Brian [00:54:37] Yeah. 

Meg [00:54:38] You know, he's like. He's like, you know how Lily see Tom for food. And then the the glass shattering noise happens to Marshall because Lily is his girlfriend. And then all he can realize when he's with Lily, it's how she talks her food and go. I told my husband that we're realizing these things. I'm like, It is the glass shattering moment. Everything I'm reading, everything I'm learning, it is all tying back to dishonesty and hurt of others. Pain of others. Between women. Between blacks. Between people who are not believing. Between. People were even had questions and people who were against Joseph and they are in history as these people who were against Mormonism finding Mormonism. And it was like, no, they were against him marrying 14 year old as they should have been. And we have painted them as these horrible historical figures hurting Joseph. And it was just this over and over again on things prophets had said. And the Word of Wisdom and the Temple and the Freemasons and the temple. That was an experience. Understanding the temple is not is not unique. There was taken from the Freemasons. That was interesting. Those kind of kind of relating for me, though I did not like the temple really struggled with it, who was not a good time. 

Brian [00:56:03] And so. 

Meg [00:56:03] Yeah, I just thought everything was time back. Everything was turning back to the restoration, every prophet. And it was so disappointing because I thought I could follow like President Nelson and be like, okay, I'll focus on the prophet today. But the amount of times we talk about the restoration, not I talk about Joseph. Another time we talk about how much has come from the restoration. You have the priesthood, you have temples, you have marriage, you have Word of Wisdom, you have priest might also have that is the restoration or about what the restoration has brought to us. And it all ties back. And so it's kind of like. It's kind of like this. All these little fuzes are going back to the bomb, you know? Right. They're all coming back. 

Brian [00:56:47] And fruits of a poisoned tree right now. 

Meg [00:56:51] Yeah, that was I think that was the most shocking part. And then. Yeah. Very, very dark time realizing all of those are tied. 

Brian [00:57:01] So you just take all of your scriptures and all of your primary songs and all of your young women's lessons and your medallion and your seminary graduation certificate and all of these teachings and family home evenings. And you throw all of it into the garbage. 

Meg [00:57:20] Not necessarily there. Yeah, there were. Well, there's also some teachings in the church that are just very behind the times that I was not okay with women, for one. I mean, just how they've push women to be mothers in the home and that it is their responsibility. And I love women. I love the idea of motherhood. But I think the church has taken away a lot of freedom within that. And I think that alone did not come from the restoration. But that is something that is hurtful to me that the church was created. So there's things like that LGBTQ same thing very. I did the years of mental gymnastics with that one and trying to make it work and that was incredibly difficult. So there's different aspects that I think modern day church has created that make me angry, that are not tied to the restoration. But then I also was very grateful for community growing up and I grew up in a great community. I went to an elementary school that I went with everyone to church with. Like I had a great childhood. I had great adults that looked after me. I had I had a wonderful family. And it's hard seeing that I can't ask myself what would have happened if the church wasn't there? Would they still love me? Were they still accepting me, or did they only love me because we went to church together for so long? You know, sometimes you have to leave yourself out of those questions. On what would a life look like if the church was in the part why? 

Brian [00:58:52] And I just. 

Meg [00:58:53] Just because it was convenience. Like, was I a friend out of convenience or was I a friend because people liked me? Or was I a family member? That was active and it was convenient to be around me because I was always around researching. Was I someone who was actually respected and loved and looked up to? That's and I think I'm mostly over that part cause I'm just like, if you want to be in my life now, I will be kind and respectful. But I'm not going to push my beliefs aside to be someone that I think they would like. I'm just, you know, most of that's gone. But that that's that was the question. It's like, whoa, what were my childhood look like? 

Brian [00:59:34] It comes back to conditional love, right? Yeah, because it didn't feel conditional at the time, and I don't believe it was. Yeah, we've lived in this house for 22 years. All four of my kids grew up here and I don't see my neighbors other than just over the fence anymore. None of them have reached out. None of them have. I mean, with very, very, very few exceptions, people that I thought I had really strong, decade long experience and friendships with. 

Meg [01:00:05] Isn't that so sad? 

Brian [01:00:07] That's so heartbreaking. 

Brian [01:00:09] And I try to give them the benefit of the doubt because I know they're really, really good people. 

Brian [01:00:14] Yeah. 

Brian [01:00:14] And I know that I'm the one that left. And so I'm kind of the story that I make up in their benefit, which I think is probably true. Mm hmm. They don't want to. They don't want to impose on me. I knew what I was doing when I left, and I chose to leave for a reason. So they're going to let me leave and take that reasoning with me and. It's just a hearse. 

Meg [01:00:37] There's also such a weird question on like, do we have anything in common other than the church? That's something else I realized. I realize I did not have a lot in common with people that I spent time around, and I felt the church was like, we home. Like, not even just like our church beliefs are different. But I'm like, we didn't really have anything in common other than the church. 

Brian [01:00:56] Yeah, I. 

Brian [01:00:58] Did. Coached lacrosse with them for ten years. 

Brian [01:01:02] Actually. 

Brian [01:01:03] Were on my team and they oh yeah. I mean, we saw each other on the field. We were in the Bishopric together. We were in four years. I mean, literally I would see them 20 hours a week, minimum. 

Brian [01:01:16] For. 

Brian [01:01:17] Eight years. Ten years. 

Brian [01:01:21] Know, I don't want to get angry about that either. It makes me sad. 

Meg [01:01:25] Because I understand it and it's like. 

Brian [01:01:28] And you know, you can't be I miss them now. People like me. 

Meg [01:01:33] So many of my people I miss. 

Brian [01:01:36] It kills me that they hardly at all. 

Meg [01:01:38] Yeah. Oh, God. Yeah, yeah. I go back to Utah and it's an anxiety trip where when I used to go back, I used to be home. And now I am so anxious. And I am scared. And I'm scared when I'm outside of my neighbor or my parents house. What are my neighbors thinking? Or, you know, when when I got my nose pierced, it was like, hey, they're here. And I think I, I was dropping out of school and go and live a party life and me like left my husband. Like it was like they, the hole in my nose was like I was changing the trajectory of everything I worked for. And it was like I with a hole in my nose. 

Brian [01:02:22] Though it's more than that. You've been in the last since. You're allowed one piercing in each ear. 

Meg [01:02:27] Yeah. 

Brian [01:02:28] I'm sorry. Who's allowing you that anxiety? 

Meg [01:02:31] Another one of the things, the culture that's always thought. I'm like, man, the. The judgment in the church. It is. That was seriously. There is this moment where me and I, we we created an awesome habit of when we were leaving the church. We got a breakfast on Sunday when we were going to church and we would go to breakfast on Sundays. And it was seriously some of the most euphoric moments of our faith journey, because we would look around at people and go, It is the most beautiful thing not to judge people. And you you think you're not judgment on the church. You think that you are as kind as can be and as accepting as you can be. And then when you're out, you realize how many different types of criteria you created in your head for human beings is a sad, sad thing. And just physically too, like between tattoos and piercings and who's with a partner of the same sex and who is that? Who's not going to church on Sunday? You know, just the physical aspects and what you can tell about people. 

Brian [01:03:36] Man, letting my shoulders. 

Meg [01:03:38] Oh, man, those porn shoulders. 

Brian [01:03:40] Will get your. 

Brian [01:03:40] Shoulders. That's right. That's going to be the downfall falls. 

Meg [01:03:43] My favorite part for sure. I love just. 

Brian [01:03:46] I love people. 

Brian [01:03:48] Some shoulders I want. 

Brian [01:03:49] Everybody to not be able to I hold. 

Meg [01:03:53] On my shoulders are out now. That's a wonderful thing. No, just really people and people man. I've met I it's so cool knowing that I met people that I would have never met or even just, like, really, really messed with. Like, I would have never messed with some of my best friends now. And if I were in the church, that's so cool. And they accept me for all that I am. All of the things, the good and the really bad. 

Brian [01:04:19] Yeah. I don't have to hide. That's so. 

Meg [01:04:20] Cool. I love that. I'm the shoulders too. That's a good thing to do. 

Brian [01:04:28] Yeah. 

Brian [01:04:29] Okay. You have I have a couple more a couple more concepts, but they're kind of off topic or changing topics. Do you is there anything you wanted to bring up about? Your exodus, your. Um, or anything else we've talked about first before we move on. 

Meg [01:04:48] Um. Yeah. Yeah. There's actually one thing I know I think I mentioned it when we were talking earlier over email, something that I, I always knew in the back of my mind when I was in the church, going back to a lot of womanhood, I, I grew up with three brothers, no sisters. My next door neighbors had four boys, no girls, and obviously no names. But they were related to someone very important in the church. And that very important person would come around often to our ward. And it was a really, really big deal. And being with brothers, being with neighbors. And there's a lot of men around me growing up, which was great and I respect my brothers. We one of my brothers is out of the church, two are in and we respect each other for who we are. We show up as we are. And I'm really grateful for how we've evolved as adults, because I understand not everyone has that that privilege. And I'm very grateful for who we are as siblings. But I, I grew up as the only girl knowing women were second tier. Like, that's not even ex-Mormon statement. That's I knew at a very young age that I was not as important. And I went to all the scout meetings, I went to all the ordinations, I went to all the mission farewells, all the mission homecomings. And I was a very supportive sister and all of that. But then also I saw all my brothers friends around me and I did the same thing. I was always there. And my dad that was also very had multiple colleagues in the church and that were very important. And I just I knew very early that women were not the same. Women were not even close to the same. And people can say they have different roles, they have different skills that are needed somewhere else. But I always knew at a very young age women were not treated the same. The importance level was very different and. Seeing all the men up there during General Conference was always so painful for me. Knowing that you can have the primary presidency, Relief Society and presidency, and they say good things. They I think they really try to do good things. But the amount of men in the church and I know that especially taboo subject, but the fact that a woman can never be prophet. And people shun that away and they go to the priesthood and they go. Women are just as valuable. 

Brian [01:07:40] Or Stake President or bishop or counselors or secretaries or financial clerks or. 

Meg [01:07:47] Absolutely anything, or lawyers and people as they would, when you are on what they call it, set apart in the course of a Mia Maid or Beehive or whatever, you're like giving a blessing. Right? But it's you still can't do anything without the men that you were in the class excited to see. 

Brian [01:08:04] Your young women's leaders. 

Meg [01:08:06] Exactly. It is all relied on the men. And we wait for the men and we we wait for the men to tell us what to do. And you are held to a very specific. Group. When you're a woman and you cannot excel from that group just because you're a woman. And that fact alone, I know the mental gymnastics people go through to make excuses, to say this is the way God wants it, this is the way it's supposed to be. I know exactly what that is because I've made those arguments. I've made those excuses my entire. 

Brian [01:08:40] Life and didn't believe them when you made them. 

Brian [01:08:43] No. Oh, no, no. 

Brian [01:08:44] I make sense when. 

Meg [01:08:48] Yeah. I think that's about as good as the woman. That was one of my one of my first, like, heartbreaking moments of understanding how much if I if I sit in the church, how much just women and myself, how much we've missed out on just because of my sex. What a. It's just not progressive at all. And that's what's so frustrating about the church is not only the church is it's supposed to be progressive, it's supposed to be prophetic. Right? The church is supposed to be ahead of the times because if they're speaking to God, if God is telling them what to do, if God is really head of this church. As blacks would have never had the pressure taken away because if God loves. All right. And then there's the argument. I don't know why that happened. We just have to do our best to have their doubts. Now it's your doubts. And I think that if God is really leaving this church, you really think he would have waited till the seventies? Really like you like. And people were I've heard the excuse of all blacks that have been so prosecuted they would have been so hurt and people. The racist issues at that time, they they would have been in danger. And I'm like. Civil rights. Are you kidding me? I mean, I understand there were there are still racist parts of the United States and where most Mormonism is. There's still racism. Absolutely. But during the seventies, like. No, that is not even close to an excuse. They deserve equal rights and they've always deserved equal rights. And they did not deserve to be talked about in the way they did to. And say, like, if you married a black person and you had a child with that black person, you deserve to be beheaded by. What's the word for. Brigham Young and. Yeah. That after someone says something that dirty, it doesn't matter what good comes out of their mouth. I don't care what kind of prophetic shit comes out of your mouth. That one thing alone discredits you for everything that you will say for me. For me to want to follow you. But that's and that's one of the hardest things is if the church really was. Progressive. They would they would have won. They would not be followers of how we move as a nation. Right. They they are following how our nation goes between women's rights, between racist issues, between LGBTQ. They are absolutely followers. 

Brian [01:11:28] Well, the fact is. 

Brian [01:11:29] First, they have to excommunicate all the other people that were progressively stating those things ahead of time. We excommunicate them and then we choose to follow. 

Meg [01:11:38] But the Internet and. 

Brian [01:11:41] People. 

Meg [01:11:41] Realizing, oh, wait a second, I can actually find this information everywhere and then realizing that they cannot excommunicate everybody like the professors at BYU in the eighties when they were teaching about the stone in the hat, and that that was how the Book of Mormon was translated. And they were excommunicated and obviously fired from BYU. 

Brian [01:12:01] And you need your ecclesiastical endorsement. 

Meg [01:12:04] Yup. Very dark time. And now it's like. No. No apology, no explanation. Just, you know, you have Brad Wilcox on YouTube now being like, let me explain to you why we have. 

Brian [01:12:18] To have like you're a two year old. 

Meg [01:12:20] Yes. That voice. Yeah. 

Brian [01:12:22] So that that's you. 

Meg [01:12:25] Because there is such a part of my faith journey where I was like, I see all the faults, I see all the dishonesty. I see all that happened. But then the part that really pisses me off is I'm like, the church knows this, and there's not been a single apology. There's not been a single explanation. 

Brian [01:12:42] And the amount of. 

Brian [01:12:43] Hoaxes that the church does not apologize. 

Meg [01:12:46] Yes. And that what a. And on top of that, this is the part I remember having a full blown panic attack sobbing situation where when I'm realizing this and I was held accountable by going into the bishop's office, how many times be held accountable for my actions? Not even my actions. Times where I had been molested multiple times by multiple different boys and me coming in as a teenager with a grown man and saying, this is what happened. I did not want this to happen. I did not give consent for this to happen. And it's still me who's not taking the sacrament. And that boy's gone on a mission. And then to hear that not only was like sexual sin per say happening back then with everybody, with every polygamist, with not just they were having relationships, they were having relationships with teenagers and they were having children with underage girls with children. And then they were held accountable for that. Or they I guess they try to be Joe Smith was held accountable by law for sure. But the church has never held them accountable, and they're holding me to an incredible different standard. And they're not even holding other people to that standard. You know, like it's kind of a boys club. And I and that's not to say that men or boys aren't aren't don't go through discipline in the church because they know there are plenty of people who've gone through disciplinary council or they have the sacrament or their ability to or the temple or whatever taken away. But the part, oh man, that sent me over the edge of being like I was, I was held accountable for for shit I didn't even do of being touched the way I did not want to be touched. And in times where I was in public and could not ask for help and we have public records of the men doing horrible things and the church does nothing but speak for wonderful things about them. So backward and that and people go, I'm so sorry that happened to you. I'm so sorry that it was your bishop. It was your person that happened to be with three bishop. Three bishops. That same thing happened to me. And how many other women have I happened to? There's a documentary out called Chew Gum, and it is Girls from Utah. Have you heard that? 

Brian [01:15:13] I've heard from you. 

Brian [01:15:14] Know, it was a documentary. 

Brian [01:15:15] Out about. 

Meg [01:15:16] Their there girls. I think they're mostly in their twenties and they are creating a documentary about how they were taught that they were to gum after the culture. 

Brian [01:15:25] Yeah. Oh yeah. 

Brian [01:15:26] They don't talk about the gum chewers much in that. 

Meg [01:15:29] And. 

Brian [01:15:30] That it's mostly about being the chewed gum. 

Meg [01:15:32] Yeah. Yeah. Mostly being the the reason why. But they, they weren't worthy. That was, is their problem. Yeah. Yeah. Start their stuff. And, you know, that's, that's a realization you have to go through, I think, through a faith process. And I've grown from that and I've had to learn from that and learn that it was not my fault. And the men I told are responsible for not treating that well and. Took a lot of therapy to get over feeling like I was at fault for being molested. And but now I know now that it's a dark, really shitty place to be in believing that it was your fault, and then also seeing the rewards given to boys that they could just walk on a mission knowing what they did was horrible. But that was, I think. For lack of a better phrase, it fucked up my high school career. And no one knew. No one knew. 

Brian [01:16:42] But I know one person that. No. Sorry. 

Meg [01:16:47] No. What? 

Brian [01:16:48] I'm sorry that you knew. 

Meg [01:16:49] Oh, yeah, it was. 

Brian [01:16:51] Sorry. 

Meg [01:16:51] Oh, so. No, it's okay. I was. 

Brian [01:16:54] Just kidding. No, it's okay. 

Meg [01:16:56] That it happened, but it's. It's okay with where I'm at now. I'm okay with where I'm at now. I it's taken a lot of work, but it's been good. It's really there's some self-discovery with learning how other people have mistreated you. Yeah. 

Brian [01:17:12] And unfortunately. 

Meg [01:17:14] Unfortunately, unfortunately, that's. But you know what it has it's taught me more than just how people mistreated me sexually, because now I can. Look, I'm I have a very clear conscience on how how people must treat me any other way and how there's there's blame attached to that. And blame should be attached. But it's also just understanding that people mistreat you. Not your fault. Yeah. You know, it's pretty awesome, but. 

Brian [01:17:45] Yeah, but like you said, it's. It's. It's not easy to say that. Yes. Even much more difficult to believe that and to know that it takes a lot of time and pain and soul searching to get to that point. 

Meg [01:18:03] Yeah, I think. That that experience alone and understanding how much the church has had with mistreating people and not being accountable for it and holding people like me accountable for what I didn't even do that experience alone. I think that took me from like, Oh, I think I'm exiting the church to be like, say, I don't want any part of an organization who do not hold themselves accountable for something so serious and push their members taboo to believe that they're accountable for more than what they even do. They there's zero accountability within the church, and they push more accountability than is appropriate. Not all. Hmm. That's astounding. Yeah. 

Brian [01:18:52] Thank you for sharing that. 

Meg [01:18:53] Yeah, it's our time. 

Brian [01:18:55] I know there are a lot of people out there that need to hear that. 

Meg [01:18:58] There are. 

Brian [01:18:59] And I am, unfortunately. 

Meg [01:19:01] I believe the stories I read. I can't believe how many people have been molested or raped within a church. Church leaders, people who they went to school with. And a lot so many people. Like there's more similarities with my story than coming on the other side of men or boys being held accountable. Because it's easier, right? Easier to hold women accountable when they are in leadership, when you have someone in leadership or a boy who can't control his thoughts. Right. It's it's easier to go the other out. So disappointing. But. Yeah. That's also another really good thing is that I believe for so long that it was up to me to keep a man or boy thoughts clean. Oh, I held I. 

Brian [01:19:59] I tweeted about that shit. I thought I was so sure. 

Meg [01:20:07] I was so sure I was. It was my job giving. 

Brian [01:20:10] Me one tweet. 

Brian [01:20:11] Let's hear. 

Brian [01:20:12] Oh, oh. 

Brian [01:20:13] I saw something you would have said. Come on. 

Meg [01:20:16] Oh, I honestly, I saw, like, a memory pop up a few years ago and then like 20. It's like probably 2013 or something. I tweeted something like, Come on, girl, is your boyfriend's gone on missions do better or something like, Oh, it's so bad, like be more appropriate. I'm like, I look at that and go, Oh, indoctrination. That was so, so great. And so I look around like, that's so embarrassing. I was the person pushing that I told I hold myself accountable for that. So the same time as all I knew is all I knew, you were held accountable as a woman to keep those thoughts. 

Brian [01:20:53] Pure and the mental gymnastics that you force yourself to go through, going through the situation at the time and aware of the whole process, and I'm still tweeting that it's just it's remarkable that the human brains ability to. I don't know. 

Meg [01:21:14] Yeah. Yeah, that's. I can laugh about it now if I go. Gosh, I girl thought she knew everything. And I look back and go. That girl was broken. My girl is so broken. And she didn't even know it. And it hurts me to know how I hurt other broken girls. Yeah, that sucks. And that's really. That's not a funny feeling to know how I could have impacted another girl's perception on themselves, because. I don't. I don't believe anywhere near where I believe then, but taking accountability for that and changing is, I guess, the only thing you can do. 

Brian [01:21:52] Yeah. You were also a high school aged. 

Brian [01:21:58] Yeah. I mean, no. 

Meg [01:21:59] No, anything. 

Brian [01:21:59] You don't know anything in high school. And you know what you're taught and what you're told. And it's just it's just a hard time, you know? You can't be too hard on that girl, right? 

Brian [01:22:12] You can't. Yeah, she's pretty annoying. 

Brian [01:22:14] But who wasn't annoying in high school? 

Meg [01:22:18] Oh, gosh. Oh, I heard the best quote the other day. It said, If you are not embarrassed of your past self, you're doing life wrong. And I'm like, thank goodness. Like, that's so great. 

Brian [01:22:29] I think we're just not. 

Brian [01:22:30] Paying attention to where you missed it because. 

Meg [01:22:33] Everyone's. 

Brian [01:22:34] In. 

Brian [01:22:34] Parody of people around you that can remember something you should be embarrassed of. If you can't conveniently. 

Brian [01:22:40] Go reach out to someone don't know. 

Meg [01:22:43] Oh yeah. Or just don't look at your past Twitter, you know, and look at those golden tweets on what you said in 2013. 

Brian [01:22:50] Yeah, but those into what do they call those stitches or they put on the samplers, put those on a sampler on your wall. Now seriously. 

Meg [01:22:58] I know. Humble yourself. 

Brian [01:23:00] Yeah, yeah. 

Meg [01:23:01] Oh yeah. I those those memories that pop up on Facebook or you know it's like five years ago you said this. I'm like, please, no. 

Brian [01:23:09] I don't want to know what I said. Yes. 

Brian [01:23:11] Now that was a different person. Trust me. 

Brian [01:23:14] I don't know where she is. Oh, yeah? 

Brian [01:23:18] Well, the things she would tell me right now about this, that. 

Brian [01:23:22] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, have you. 

Meg [01:23:24] Ever, have you played the game with as you've left my husband. I would like if I could meet my 16 year old self as I am now, what would I what would my 16 year olds do or think and how would I talk to myself? 

Brian [01:23:36] Okay. 16. 

Meg [01:23:37] So and we go. Well without any fault of present day self, I don't think past self would like me. 

Brian [01:23:46] What would you say? What would you say? 

Meg [01:23:48] How dare you left the church? What's your girlfriend like? What were you thinking? Like you are down a path of evil and everything we've been taught not to do. But then, at the same time, I think 16 year old Meg would be astounded with the confidence. Be like, shit, dude. Like, where did you get it? And just be like, Here's the key. Don't care about what people think. That's all it is. Because once you don't care what people think, then you slowly just transform into your most authentic self you've always wanted to be. And that's great. 

Brian [01:24:23] But in high school, it is all about what? Everybody else? 

Brian [01:24:27] Oh, yes. 

Brian [01:24:28] That's the only thing that matters. 

Meg [01:24:31] That's like your social media. But you're seeing the same people every day. And matter matters how you're representing yourself and you're trying to blend. 

Brian [01:24:38] In and being represented by others and. 

Meg [01:24:41] Totally and growing up in a mormon community. Because I said, I'm like, what would I would have been like if I weren't Mormon in high school? What if I would have left in high school? What would I mean before that would have been nicer. But like when you're in high school, I think you have more accountability for your actions and what you believe in, what you're thinking. And so I thought if I left in high school and I'm like, Oh, what a mess. Everything up, because all my friends are Mormon, all my teachers were Mormon, my community was Mormon. It would've been really hard on my family. They would have not been good. I needed to be fully independent to leave the church for things to end up how they would have now, I think I think if I would've left in high school, they would have taken years for people to recover on me and it would have taken me longer to recover to. So it wouldn't have been a good thing. So. And at the same time, it's kind of like everything leads up to your life and how supposed to be. Because it's so hard to say. I wish I would've done things different. I wish I would have experienced this different. But then at the same time, it's like I wouldn't have been where I am today without all of the. You know the whole path here I am who I am because of what happened last year and the year before and the year before that. So things would have changed in high school. I could have foreseen that. My husband could have not. Because I know for a fact that I would have if I were less in high school and then like the mindset that I have now, I wouldn't have gone to college and state. I would have. I think I went down pretty. 

Brian [01:26:05] Quick. 

Meg [01:26:06] And I went to school with my husband and he played football and we got married and we had a great college career. And that alone I remember like thinking that exactly like, man, I would have left. I know I would have not been with my wife. And that alone is good for me. I would have stayed in the church. Another ten years of misery if the man. I got to be with him. So it's almost. Yeah, you know. 

Brian [01:26:25] Well it's good that you can see that the good things that came from that. 

Meg [01:26:29] Yeah. Kind of have to. 

Brian [01:26:35] Oh, I had another direction. I wanted to take this, and I completely forgot where it was. 

Meg [01:26:39] No high school. 

Brian [01:26:42] Oh, no. 

Brian [01:26:43] So. 

Brian [01:26:46] What guides your life now? You've taken your scriptures and your young women's books and your medallions and all of your and you've put those away, and now you're just out there just doing anything. It's total anarchy. You have no morals. You're leading other down the path to hell. 

Brian [01:27:07] Oh, you have. 

Brian [01:27:07] But it's also. 

Brian [01:27:10] It's a great power. 

Meg [01:27:13] Oh, man. You know, what is so great is. I don't need stories or a book or lessons that tell me how to be a good person. I just I want to be a good person. I think it comes with the desire of who you want to show up every day as. And I know people like and I've heard it time and time again. We had this guy who was in our ward boundaries last year who. Did not understand that we didn't want to come to church in Arizona, and he just wouldn't leave us alone. We told him where we were at, respectfully, like, Hey, but you're our neighbor. We love to be around you. And he's like, Man, if I was a mormon, I'd be off doing horrible things, treating people horribly and still and shit. And I was like. That's so sad. 

Brian [01:28:00] But I'm glad you're Mormon. 

Brian [01:28:02] I'm glad. 

Meg [01:28:02] You're Mormon bro. Like, thank you for choosing Mormonism because the world is better off with you being Mormon. 

Brian [01:28:08] I think people just right to. 

Brian [01:28:10] Leave the church are on this path of destruction and they're going to grab everything with them and its full on hedonism and yeah. 

Meg [01:28:18] It's so sad and so and especially with the name of atheists like I'm not atheists, I'm more agnostic, but I believe, I believe in something for sure. But believing in something doesn't make me be good. Right. And, and that was kind of like my end all argument because you can argue forever about truth in the church. You can argue about how the Book of Mormon was translated as the Templars polygamy needed to happen or revelation within prophets. This had to happen even though it's so sad. You know, like you can talk about that argument forever. It might end. All argument is if this is true, if the church really is true, if this is really the way it needs to be. I do not want my personal salvation to require the pain and heartache of so many people. I do not want to thrive and live. Off of. The excuse that it had to happen. I'm not okay with that. I'm not okay with how many people hurt in the church. And so and also, I don't want to believe in a God that thinks that's okay. And I don't believe I don't believe God believes that so much pain and heartache is okay. I don't think he loved that. I don't believe he leaves the church. I think people in the church do what they think is best. But that's my end. All argument is at the end of the day, I don't want to be a part of something that's hurt so many people, even if that means and that really, truly means. I don't believe it. But if that truly means. My salvation. I'm not. And don't do that. I'm not going to. I'm not going to be living the high life while so many people are hurt. So I could get to that great life, you know? Okay. And that's my end. All right? People can't argue with that, cause that's the way I feel. That's why I believe in humanity. And I don't. I don't think that's okay, but I think that's led me to who do I want to show up as every day? What do I believe in and how do I treat people? And what pushes me as a human to see be the change that I want to see in the world and not just what are people telling me to do? What is this lesson teach me today? How am I supposed to take what I learned from church and put it in our daily lives right here every Sunday? It was. I just got to wake up and go. I'm going to be the person that I would want to be around. That's it. 

Brian [01:30:40] Which is what? How do you define that person? 

Meg [01:30:42] I'm doing the work. Doing the work to be good. 

Brian [01:30:47] And teaching the. 

Meg [01:30:50] Guy to do that. You know, when I was in the service. Oh, yeah. Not a good time. Just being a good friend. I. I'm so grateful for my friends and how we treat each other. And the worst part about growing up, seeing your friends split up in the world because everyone grows up. I really can leave the state. People go to different colleges. People get married and move. And I went overseas like it was. It's hard, but showing up for your friends is so important. And whether that means having five hour long conversations or sending them flowers and then graduate college or sending them a birthday gift or buying them a surprise Starbucks like it's just showing up for your people. And I realize that's something I'm really good at and that's something that the church should not teach me. That's just who I strive to be is showing up. I show for family members at the same time, I've also had to learn very painfully who shows up for me. Because I want to show for everybody because that's how I represent myself. I want to show it for people. I will show for my family. I want to make sure that people know that I love them. And through leaving the church, I really realized, like, how many people have shown up for that have not even given me a phone call. And not feeling sucks, but the thing that sucks more is backing off. That's the word. Because that's not that's not how I do life. That's that's not how I how I represent myself. But at the same time that there's a people pleasing issue that I want to make sure that people know that I love them but they don't love me. What kind of relationship is that? And I think that's really when you realize how many people are there for you, when you start backing off, if people aren't reaching out to you, people are asking how you're doing or Hey, where have you been? There's your answer. And that's. That's been a rough, rough lesson in the past, I'd say past year for sure, because I think people really just accepted the idea of who Mason I are. And we've announced like two and a half years now, but I think the past year has really been we try to build relationships and wherever we're at, we want to meet people where they are. And seeing that people do not want to meet us where we're at and accepting that because you can't put friendships, you can't push being best friends with the members in your family, you have to just let it happen. And when it doesn't happen, that's. 

Brian [01:33:28] But yeah, it does add something I feel very close to as well. I did just read something the other day. I saw you say Red. It was probably an Instagram quote. Yeah. Said it's okay to not show up for people that haven't been showing up for you. 

Brian [01:33:43] Yeah. 

Brian [01:33:44] And like, I kind of needed to hear that because. 

Brian [01:33:47] Isn't that the. 

Brian [01:33:48] Word? It it sucks because I like you. I like being there for other people. I'm always reaching out to go to lunch and whatever. And that's. That's my love language, right? 

Brian [01:33:58] Yeah. 

Brian [01:33:59] And what other people are doing that to me, I interpret it as they don't love me. It's probably not the case. That's probably not the case. That's just not how they show love. 

Meg [01:34:08] Yeah. 

Brian [01:34:09] Okay. But if they knew me, they'd know that's my love language. 

Meg [01:34:12] And so also they could represent their love language and how they love you, too. It could be a phone call. It could be coming over to see you. You know, there's multiple different ways to represent love and affection. And I think I think people who I've kind of backed off from, it's not anything to say. We're arguing or I'm angry. Are you? It's just I'm just putting. My life. I check in, making sure I'm taking care of myself. And I'm not just worry about taking care of you, but seeing priorities with people I think must be a thing because I want I believe that people who don't talk to me as much, I hope you still love me and I love you. I write as family members or as friends. I do love you. And I really, truly from the bottom. My heart will always wish you the best. Right? But see, more priorities lie with being like, Oh, you can love me but I'm not your priority when it used to be or when you have been my priority. 

Brian [01:35:06] Or what I thought it was. And you didn't. 

Brian [01:35:09] Yeah. 

Meg [01:35:10] Yeah. Love and priority is very interesting because you can, you know, someone loves you for you see my Christmas or holidays or whatever and they can hug you and tell you they love you and the effort in your life. But then you get like a 20 minute conversation a year and then like, oh, that's all that I matter to you, you know? Yeah. And also, who knows of that conversation just because I'm there or if you really do care how I'm doing, because it's only that one time I talk to you, you really care. 

Brian [01:35:37] It's just a post on my birthday, that's what. 

Brian [01:35:39] Yeah. Okay. Yeah, right. 

Meg [01:35:42] When, like, we used to be so close or used to respect me more. Yeah, that's a really interesting place, but I think that's the beauty of honestly, one of the biggest lessons in my twenties is understanding here your people are and you can have people on your in your outfield, right? You can have people there and it's okay. You don't have to be best friends with everyone and you don't have to be absent from everyone. They can just exist. 

Brian [01:36:08] That's a good point. You're not removing them from your contact list, right? You just. 

Brian [01:36:11] Yeah, yeah. I might. 

Meg [01:36:13] Unfollow you on Instagram because I don't want to see how many times you're out with your friends and you don't care. 

Brian [01:36:19] Because it's kind of. 

Meg [01:36:20] It's got a reminder of the hurt. 

Brian [01:36:22] That kind of sucks. 

Meg [01:36:22] So I'll be like, Hey, or I'll put you on mute or whatever on social media. But if there's not a lot of hurt feelings, there's just a lot of acceptance on where things lie. There used to be a lot of hurt feelings. I used to be very, very sad, very upset. But you can't live life like that, right? Like being sad. Yes, it is. Except for things. Right. And then also putting so much emphasis on your friends who do take care of you. And sometimes I can be your spouse for a minute. I feel even tragic and just be yourself. And that's okay. Yeah. 

Brian [01:36:54] Yeah. You said something a while back, and I wanted to circle back to that. The church doesn't teach you how to be there for people and how to be friends. And I'm going to throw out that the church does try to teach service opportunities. They have your secret sisters at camp. Every camp. Right. They have got about that. 

Brian [01:37:15] Yeah. Well, we remember I. 

Brian [01:37:17] May have been to more girls camps than you have been. I guess I was. 

Brian [01:37:21] Lucky you. 

Brian [01:37:23] Nine straight years. 

Brian [01:37:24] Nice. Oh. 

Brian [01:37:27] But they do teach service. They teach visiting, teaching and home teaching. And they have. Why is that not the same? Why is that not? How does that fall short? They put a lot of effort into it and I agree it falls completely flat and false. And the second you're assigned, you're assigned to someone else as a home teacher. I never see you again. Right. You were here for assignment and you check the box and I get feels that way for us as it feels about as phony as your secret sister at camp. Here's a girl you never know. You never talk to that whatever. And now all of a sudden, you need to do three things nice to her by the end of the weekend and. Oh, okay. 

Brian [01:38:12] Yeah. 

Meg [01:38:14] You know, it's like kind of the how people feel when they. With education, it's kind of like you don't push yourself, push yourself. You're not expected to learn any more. And so then learning kind of becomes a task is something you have to do on your own time. And that's kind of like how service works in the church when it's not pushed on you and it's not taught about when it's not even required. Requires kind of strong work and graduation require. 

Brian [01:38:46] Right. It's a requirement. It's whatever. 

Meg [01:38:50] Yeah. When you've kind of checked it off. You kind of realize that how much you've been doing, how much like you are in school, how much you've been learning, how much you've been reading, how much you've been listening. I think kind of past that point in your life, you realize, Man, I'm not learning a lot or I'm not reading a lot and not listening to a lot. You have to push yourself to continue learning. I think that's how the church is a service. If you're not pushed all the time, if you're not in that and people don't. I don't have the requirement of serving someone else, like visiting teaching or speaker systems or whatever. They forget why it was asked in the first place. And it's not. It's not top priority anymore. And that's been really tricky because I what I like visiting teaching when I was in Relief Society or when I was in Young Woman's and we had similar things like that where we like check up on the girls in our group and it is hard. It's just so genuine. It's not very scripted and. So I felt like that when I was in the church. And then like people who came to visit me, it felt very scripted. So I just knew people did things. But then at the same time I learned how to serve so much, like whatever it was with yard work or with helping people on the ward. Like I really did learn how to serve and my parents were really big on that. And I really am grateful that because I really do truly believe I learned how to how to serve in the church. But I think it's also what are you gaining in your personality that is pushing you to continue to have that? Because I do think the church almost treats it like a checklist is like your sister check in kitchen check. And then it's so interesting because I've seen where like when visiting teachers get switched around or whatever, you never see that person again. Who was your vision teacher before? You don't talk to that person ever. And it's like, oh, they like you were only talking with me because it. 

Brian [01:40:56] Was a task. 

Brian [01:40:57] I thought we had a connection. I thought you were coming over here. 

Meg [01:41:00] Exactly. It's very confusing. So I don't want to like say the church is so solely based off the checklist of doing that because I, I think they do push service in a way to try and make it a part of who you are. But sometimes it's executed in such a simple way where people are not digging deep on why it's been done, why it's important. But then. I don't like my I really have learned service through my mom. My mom is a she's incredible with who she looks out for. And I know she does service because she wants to. People don't ask her to do things. She just does them. And I think that's difference is who who are you? Who are you showing up for when no one's watching or when I was asking you to? And I think that's the big question after I left, because you leave this community of who need service, who need meals to who's getting baptized and needs help with this, who has passed away and their family needs help. Who needs a baby sitter for something like there's always something in a community. And once you leave that community, it's almost like this relief of like, Oh, nice, I don't have to serve for a while. I haven't shown up too much, you know. But at the same time it's like, okay, how do I want to show up? How is that service a part of me? And how do I and also how do I truly want to help people? Because baking cookies for your next door neighbor when they lost something. Yeah, that's great. I love that I did that young woman. But also, like, how how could you do better? How? How can you show for that person in a way that is really needed, you know, and not just checking a box like I made the cookies, I did the yard work. I called them and checked how they were doing. Like, how can you truly serve to where it benefits people? 

Brian [01:42:59] And I think that's. 

Brian [01:43:00] Some of the training that we, you get in the church is service is checking the box service is an assignment and filling the assignment. 

Brian [01:43:10] Yeah. 

Brian [01:43:11] And I think it's like, oh, we don't want to train people for that. That's not what we want. That's not the message we want to send across. Right? 

Brian [01:43:17] Yeah. 

Brian [01:43:17] But I think it's often the one that's received and the one that we draw up. And there are so many amazing service opportunities that you don't have time to go find one on your own and to go find someone who you really care about. And you're going to have three more coming up this week that you're going to be required to go to. You just can't keep your eyes open for those other things. You're just if it was out there and if somebody really needed needed something, one of the leaders would know about it. And it would be an assignment to train you to not look. They train you to only do it when you're assigned. 

Meg [01:43:53] And feel like it's an assignment. 

Brian [01:43:54] And feel like it's. 

Brian [01:43:55] An assignment. 

Meg [01:43:56] Yeah. Like it's not. It's not a true desire. 

Brian [01:43:59] It's like you mentioned a good example education. You can graduate from college by checking all the boxes. Did you learn anything? 

Meg [01:44:09] And are you going to continue to learn? 

Brian [01:44:10] Are you going to learn? Yeah. 

Brian [01:44:13] Or are you will you only learn because there are required continuing education credits that you need every so many years? 

Meg [01:44:21] Yeah. 

Brian [01:44:22] And what will you learn and how will you decide and how will you find that? That's really never taught in education. There are some home based studies and independent studies, I think, where they do some of that. But I think it's just such a small minority. It's like, what's interesting to you make a project on that and that'll be your science for the semester. Yeah, yeah. That's not how it works. It's chapters one through 27 this semester and then chapters 28 through 52 next semester. 

Meg [01:44:52] Mm hmm. How did you how did you implement what was being taught and how are, you know, how are you going to take it in? And that goes exactly with service. It's like, how are you really taking what needs to be done and making it a part of who you are? And sometimes I think that's just so skewed with. This needs to be done. Can you go? Great. All right, move on. 

Brian [01:45:15] Can you do that? 

Brian [01:45:15] Which emphasizes the policy? 

Brian [01:45:18] Yeah. Emphasize not the. 

Brian [01:45:19] Policy, not the emotion. There's one thing to say. You need to love your neighbor. And there's another thing about truly loving your neighbor. Whether they're homeless, they don't fit in the Lord's mold. Right. Or whatever. 

Brian [01:45:34] Yeah, it goes with the. 

Meg [01:45:35] Receiver, too. Like, people know when you're genuine, people know when you're there on assignment, you know, like, it's and there's, there's like guilt attached with that. Like, I, I hate being served. Some people don't want to serve. Like, you feel guilty for taking up their time. But when I had people show up in my life when I really needed them and they shown up because they wanted to. It's you feel so important and you feel like you really matter. And that's such a different feeling in feeling guilty for helping someone check a box. Yeah. You know, and it's. It's hard because I. I know people who are so service oriented in the church and but I don't think the church taught them that. I think it's just who they are. I think my mom is just good to her bones because of who she is, because she shows up when there's no assignment. She shows up when no one's told her anything. And she loves that. She loves showing up for people. And she shows up for me. She shows up for my husband. And especially when we were leaving and it was hard on her. I know it was so hard on her because the church is her everything. She loves the church. But she showed up for me. She went to therapy. She really tried and she didn't understand me. She worked hard on accepting me and how a service like that was totally service to me. Yeah. And that's, that's a different feeling than someone showing up on Christmas at that 20 minute conversation. It's different. And you you can tell when it's different. And I think. You know, leaving the church and understanding what is service and what is checking a box. You really focus on that in your life and how am I really doing this and how am I doing it right and how am I letting others know that I'm thinking of them? It's a big deal. I didn't realize how how many things can come across as something else of service until you kind of look at it objectively. You're like, Well, I feel bad for all the people who I had to go pull their weeds. I hope they knew I wasn't pissed off. I really hope that I'm an adult now and I look back at it and like, I really I really wanted to help. I just that was not the way I wanted to spend my Saturday. 

Brian [01:48:01] But I guess. 

Meg [01:48:03] I'm glad I helped you, but sorry it wasn't in my best interest. 

Brian [01:48:07] Yeah, but now I would know. 

Meg [01:48:10] Now I know how to show up properly. 

Brian [01:48:13] I don't know if I'd be the. 

Meg [01:48:14] Weed. 

Brian [01:48:15] Calling girl. 

Meg [01:48:15] But I would definitely take you out for a long lunch. I make sure you feel loved. 

Brian [01:48:22] And then I'll buy you. 

Meg [01:48:23] Flowers to make up for the weight or a lump. But I don't know. You know, like this has this funny little interesting learning how you've been pushed to do something your whole life, and you're like, Am I even doing it? I'm doing this right. 

Brian [01:48:38] Right. 

Meg [01:48:38] Doing it right. You know, especially when something pushes through so much and you're like, precious. There is so much. And I feel like they're kind of getting it wrong. Yeah. Yeah. It's kind of like being in back to school. It's kind of like being in college and listening to a professor, and you're like, you're not making a whole lot of sense. 

Brian [01:48:57] Right. I see where you're going with this. I don't think this gets us there, though. 

Meg [01:49:01] That execution is quite different than what we're trying to make it be. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Brian [01:49:08] So when with a lot of times with the deconstruction of of religion and the faith crisis, it leads to deconstruction in other areas of your life. Have you noticed that showing up someplace else like. We've already mentioned sexism, which has been a part of it all along. And racism a little bit. Have you mentioned have you found in other areas where you're like, yeah, seriously? Looking at ways you look at. Whatever. 

Meg [01:49:39] Yeah. I think a big one is mental health because I was always told to just pray away and do the things I was supposed to do. And I would feel happier if I read my scriptures, if I went to the temple, if I chose the right, if I know, if I obeyed the word of wisdom to the law of chastity, all these things. Then I was told I'd be okay and. Yeah, that's that's not true. 

Brian [01:50:13] And if you weren't there, it was generally reminded to you that you're probably something that you were doing. 

Brian [01:50:19] That you were really. 

Brian [01:50:20] Worthy of those blessings at the time. Right. That's what you. 

Brian [01:50:23] Hear when you're. 

Brian [01:50:24] Struggling and trying really hard as to show all the areas where you're not doing all of the right things. So this is why God's not giving you this blessing. You need so much. 

Brian [01:50:33] Oh, yeah, it's the. 

Meg [01:50:34] Responsibility is heightened. You're like, wow, you take responsibility for everything when really you're just like. As man to tell a therapist, you just have a chemical imbalance, like there's nothing you can do. 

Brian [01:50:48] What you can do and what you can do more. 

Meg [01:50:50] Yeah, like what you can do more to heal yourself. You have to do actual work, whether that's medication or therapy or paying attention to your habits. And there's so much that goes into that. And I think. Especially high school mag. She was rough with mental health and obviously went through some hard things, but I was just told if I do, if I did the right things, if I did what I was supposed to do, then I would be okay. And I did that. I went in and when I was in the bishop's office and obviously we know how that turned out. And I tried to I thought again, I, I thought I was in charge of Boy Scouts. And so, you know, I was I was I wasn't. And I think and I had a fault for sure. And so but I was part of like, I'm repenting for my sins and I'm praying constantly. I'm trying to do better. I was going to the temple every week since my junior year, and in temple every week I always went to always into church. Held a few leadership callings and young woman and. Yeah, I just really tried to be good. And so then I had a really hard time with self-harm in high school. Really hard time. And it's continued in my life. And I it was so conflicting and so something to be like, why do I feel like this? I'm doing all of these things and it's still not working. I still feel so alone. And eventually my mom, my mom found out about the self-harm and she did get me into therapy, which was helpful. And she understood that there was more work to be done. And I'm really grateful that she understood that, that there there was more of a push on what needed to be done to help me. But it just that's a very conflicting thing to be in the church and feel like if you just do everything your duty, you're not going to be depressed, you're not going to be anxious, you know? 

Brian [01:52:48] And if you are anxious and depressed, it's because you're not doing everything. 

Meg [01:52:51] Exactly. What more can you be doing? Have you served today? Another reason to serve. That's not authentic guilt service. 

Brian [01:52:58] Yeah. Yeah. 

Meg [01:52:59] Really, really messy. And. And then also not just processing real pain, too. I mean, I didn't process being molested until. I don't know, maybe like a year or two ago, I like really got into deep therapy about it. And I knew, especially after leaving the church, I saw I saw the faults, I knew I named it. But going to therapy and doing work for on something that happened years ago, that's an intense healing. But yeah, that's but especially for someone whose brain is not yet developed all the way in high school. And you're taught that you're responsible for your mental health and for what's going. 

Brian [01:53:42] Wrong, I'll. 

Brian [01:53:42] Be even told what that is. What does that even mean? That's such a vague notion. 

Meg [01:53:46] Oh, and no one. No one taught me how to self-harm. I didn't know if this was a thing or not. This people watch videos or people knew people or even TV shows. I have no idea. I did not learn it from anybody except for myself. I just knew. And you know, the wonderful part of therapy that's taught me is self-harm is so common because it's it's a way to stop our adrenaline from feeling so much pain. And when you're in a very anxious spiral, like a panic attack or you are, you feel like you're so anxious you can't function. And a fighter, you're having a really bad like you're you're crying you can't contain your emotions that's aware a gentle in response to how we're feeling. And so self-harm comes in because feeling something physical stops the adrenaline from pumping. It's actually a survival instinct in our bodies, which is why therapists tell you to hold an ice cube or to take a really hot shower. They tell you to do something physical and feel something physical because it stops your adrenaline from pumping that intense panic feeling. And so I didn't know that until last year when I started really going deep into therapy. And I was like, Man, just to have someone tell me that because I was so broken knowing how to self-harm. So I just thought. 

Brian [01:55:04] I. 

Brian [01:55:05] What am I doing or. 

Meg [01:55:06] What am I doing? And then also I only told like two friends and they were like nine or anything, but just not understanding to so not being understood and then not learning anywhere and you're just kind of creating something yourself. You feel so broken and I'm thinking, it's your fault. You feel broken and not understanding at all, like what your body is doing with your body. You know, your body's emotional, you have hormones, you have nature annalynne like you have everything and things are happening for a reason. And so understanding that man, knowing that I can just hold an ice cube and it does take it's the same job I have. I went to a this was last summer. I really went deep into this and I've made it almost a year now without any self-harming. I'm just knowing that and I haven't made it a year since high school. And I was like, those are like my milestones. It's like I just started making it. Well, it's the knowledge, right? It's understanding where anxiety comes from, where depression comes from, where panic attacks come from, and high school. Meg Scott it came from herself. And what a what a damaging feeling. 

Brian [01:56:17] Yeah, but high school Meg was also given five tools she could use to remove it, none of which included holding an ice cube. Yeah, it was prayer and service and. Yeah, those. That's not working. I need. All you needed was an ice cube. That's amazing. 

Brian [01:56:31] That's crazy, isn't it? 

Meg [01:56:32] Crazy. And and knowing that just how everyone is is just different. Everybody's is different. So anxiety is not a cold that you can just get over by taking some medicine. 

Brian [01:56:46] And. 

Brian [01:56:46] Know it. Can you just think or all emotions you just ignore and they will go away. And so our topic began in ugly ways. They just go. 

Brian [01:56:54] Way darkly and. 

Meg [01:56:56] Unless you stop praying, then they're going to come back. 

Brian [01:56:59] But yeah. 

Brian [01:57:00] That, that's the emotional beliefs that I had it just suck it, I just do it, just do it, get mad and get over it. 

Brian [01:57:08] Yeah. 

Meg [01:57:08] And also that medication was dangerous too. Like that was never like taught in church, but to just rely so much on yourself to heal yourself and not rely on professionals like no one in the church who I talk to about anxiety, it was very is a very secretive thing. I didn't talk to a lot of people about it, but it just felt like such a personal requirement to check, to do okay, rather than like go see someone. Medication help, therapy help. And that's why I'm glad my mom was there and I had a pretty good therapist. She helped with something. I only went to him for maybe three or four months. But I'm it's just. The idea that you can fix your own problems when it's like, No, these are very real. Why else would we have mental health professionals? There's something to be discussed. There's something to fix there, something and someone to help you. And being held accountable for your own problems. And I really think this is such a personal opinion, but I really think that's why there's a lot of suicides in Utah and teenagers. They feel so alone in their mental health process because there's so much responsibility on themselves. And it also closes the doors and not be able to talk about it, too. If you can't talk about it, you're not able to find answers. If your thought, it's responsibility. A very, very dark road. 

Brian [01:58:40] But as members of the church, you already have all the answers. Yeah. Those aren't working. 

Meg [01:58:46] Why are they working? Exactly. 

Brian [01:58:48] It's because they're so broken. There's something that I'm doing wrong there. 

Brian [01:58:51] What are. 

Meg [01:58:51] You not. 

Brian [01:58:52] Doing? Hmm. And then they tell you I'm. 

Brian [01:58:54] Totally imbalanced, and all I need is science. And we can fix this problem right now. Yeah, but if I'm just praying about it and working really hard at that and it's not helping. What does that tell me? 

Meg [01:59:08] Yeah, and I feeling safe, too. Not feeling like you can talk about it. And so then the spiral just gets worse and becomes a very big secret. Yeah. And also just I mean, I remember it was I'll always remember the look I had Teacher of Uma and he saw my scars one time and it was on accident. And I had I always wore big bracelets on my arm to cover them. And like, no one knew, like I hid it so well, and my bracelet had moved up to my arm because I was, it was one of my typing classes. And so I'd move them up on my arm and then like have my wrists facing up so you couldn't see them. And I, I was so clear because I was mortified for months, but I knew I was pointing to something. I had my bracelets down and he saw them very, very clearly, and his eyes just shot up at me and shot back down. And I know he saw he looked at me like it was it was very clear. And I sat there after coffee, like, all right, I'm going to get a call down to the office for the counselor. And like I was sure not a damn thing. Not a single thing. I didn't he didn't ask me if I was okay. He didn't ask me if I want to be referred to a counselor. And I, I was I was so scared that he was going to. But then when two weeks went by and nothing happened, I was so sad that, like. It wasn't on purpose. Right. But it kind of looked like a cry for help. 

Brian [02:00:42] Yeah. You know. 

Brian [02:00:43] What else? What a cry for help look like more than this, right? 

Meg [02:00:46] Yeah, yeah. And. Oh, but. And I. It's hard to some people. It's like he was Mormon. Maybe he didn't know how to deal with mental health. 

Brian [02:00:55] Right. Like you could. 

Brian [02:00:56] You could have talked with your bishop. That's another tool you have. 

Brian [02:00:59] Yeah. 

Meg [02:01:00] Yeah. 

Brian [02:01:01] Yeah. 

Brian [02:01:02] Because they receive no training at all on how to deal with those issues. None at. 

Brian [02:01:07] All. 

Meg [02:01:08] And I have yet to have someone, not even just a bishop like Bishopric or Stake presidency or even just the quorum of the 12. There is yet to see one psychologist or psychiatrist that is involved, like unless I'm missing someone like it is just a very it's I feel like people who are in the Bishopric are very successful for sure. But it's always like in business or finance or or I don't know, like medical, like I've lawyers. 

Brian [02:01:39] Most of them are lawyers. Yeah. 

Meg [02:01:41] Oh, for sure. In the courtroom. Yeah. 

Brian [02:01:43] Yeah. 

Brian [02:01:43] But you know, so here's part of the reason. There was recently excommunication of a social worker from the church who believes in the church and didn't want to be excommunicated. But she was teaching what is required by law as a social worker, as a therapist, that masturbation is a normal occurrence. 

Meg [02:02:10] I know who you're talking about. I read her. 

Brian [02:02:12] Story. You cannot be. 

Brian [02:02:15] A therapist and be in the church. 

Meg [02:02:18] Exactly. And that is why. 

Brian [02:02:21] Because the British are prey. Double down on chastity and the word of wisdom. And. And go talk to your bishop. And the answer is not exercise. Get tested. See if there's some chemicals that need to be adjusted in your system. Go talk with someone about it who is a trained professional. 

Brian [02:02:42] But then on. 

Meg [02:02:43] Top of that, we're going to make you feel really broken. If you're going to do those things, we're going to make you feel like not only if you're doing those things and still doing it, you're going to feel broken no matter what good things you're doing in the church and still masturbating. If if it's still happening, you're the problem. Again, like body composition, like what is your brain telling you? What is your body telling you? Things that are just science that the church completely ignores that hurt so many people same with and that's. LGBTQ. Being attracted to someone who you feel comfortable with, who you feel authentic with, who you feel safe with. It is completely out of love. It is completely out of acceptance. And. To say that, to say that's not how God wants it. It's like we're not pushing anything inappropriate here. This is this is being a fail safe with someone who you love and who you feel safe and that you can you can experience love the way other people do in a way where you feel respected and authentic. It's just. It's so disappointing. It's. It's just the. The church is so ignorant of science. They really are. Because everyone's different. All of our bodies are different. And you know what's so crazy? People say or our brains are. I created this one way, and it's to be attracted to the opposite sex. To sex, right. This is how our brains are created. But then it's like, okay, then we can go on about that. This is how, by your credit, why do some people have two sets of genitals? That happens. That totally happens. What about mental illness or we have disabilities that we work with. You think that guys just handing out disabilities because. That's how it's supposed to be and that's how he meant for it to be. Like, it's very confusing because then they title things together and they say attraction is the same as you know. Like, isn't the same as killing or same as I would. That's murder. Predator. I think that was the same as the child part. They put those in the same box. It's like. Now, have you ever thought about how all of us are different? Our brains are different. Our bodies are different. Our needs are different. I, I have I have chronic migraines. I have a chronic illness. And for the longest time, I thought that, like, God just gives me out of punishing me in high school for doing shit. And I thought, like, it was my problem. 

Brian [02:05:30] What were you doing in high school? Let's go back and do. 

Brian [02:05:33] A fun thing. That's when I really developed. 

Meg [02:05:36] It was my senior year and I was like, What am I doing wrong? 

Brian [02:05:39] You turned 18 and your hormones changed anyway. 

Meg [02:05:44] I just, you know, it's it's so insensitive to not believe that it the human race is different. 

Brian [02:05:52] It's hard when the world is so black and white that you can't see anything in between that, let alone shades of gray, but all the beautiful colors that are actually there, they're real. But the. The when you have the supreme authority giving out. Truth. That is clear cut as clear cut as the handbook. Everything else is broken and they need to pray and repent. And that's it. It's just hard. It's just hard to see another person's perspective. I look at where I was five, ten years ago and. I was never I don't feel like I was one of those judgmental people that really my my most of my family is not LDS and they never have been. Mm hmm. I've never looked at them as bad people because I've known them as my family. They're awesome people. They're great. A lot of people grew up that the only people they were told were awesome were all church members and the people that weren't church members all have whatever issues or concerns or sins or or whatever. And it's just it's just simply not the truth. And I was able to see that a lot earlier, but I still insisted. Truth was the truth. 

Meg [02:07:18] Yeah. 

Brian [02:07:20] And so deconstruction hit me pretty hard to realize that all of that that I had doubled down on multiple times. It wasn't real. It was. It's not. It's not a thing. 

Meg [02:07:30] Yeah. Oh, that was one of my awakenings, too. It's like there's either. Like you said, it's very black and white. The human race is not black and white. It is not this way or that. 

Brian [02:07:42] With black hair color or. 

Brian [02:07:43] Skin color. I came. 

Brian [02:07:44] Back early. 

Meg [02:07:45] Or just how we receive love. Like love languages, right? 

Brian [02:07:48] You know, clearly neglected. Yeah. 

Meg [02:07:51] You can be completely neglected by someone when they're just speaking a different love language, you know, just that alone on how we share love, how we take in love, how we represent ourselves physically, how we represent ourselves emotionally. And between different illnesses we struggle with, between different strengths we struggle with. Look at the Olympics. I mean, you think we're all the same and we, the human race can do that. And then we go, okay, well, God made you this way. And it's like, No. Like every now and then. That's the beauty of it. That's. That's all. Take me back to the time when I would go to breakfast on Sundays and we'd just look at and just go, Man, I'm so glad I can see the beauty for what it is, rather than trying to make it for something that it's not. It's not black and white. 

Brian [02:08:35] Just great and colorful. It's a beautiful. 

Brian [02:08:38] World. And letting humans be humans. 

Meg [02:08:42] What a cool. 

Brian [02:08:42] Thing. What does that cost you? 

Meg [02:08:45] Nothing. And I gained everything. Yeah, that's cost me some of the construction, but I gained everything. Seeing people for people. 

Brian [02:08:55] Wouldn't you go back and pay that price again? 

Brian [02:08:57] Absolutely. 

Brian [02:08:58] The struggle and the questions and the late nights and the. 

Meg [02:09:02] Absolutely. Those all the months of pain. And I think that's that's what people misunderstand about people left the church is. You know, the typical you wanted to say and you wanted to live a different life. You wanted to do something else. And it was like. You have no idea the pain it takes to deconstruct. Yeah, well, and again, I would do it all again if that meant I got to see the world. How I see it today. 

Brian [02:09:29] But would you actively recruiting true believing Mormons? Would you actively recruit them to convince them that they should leave? 

Meg [02:09:36] That only if they came to me. Oh, wait. 

Brian [02:09:39] Wait, wait. About the true story. About leaving the church. 

Brian [02:09:41] About leaving the church. Would you actively recruit them? No. 

Brian [02:09:44] No, no, no, no, no. Only second concern that has to. 

Meg [02:09:47] Be is a personal decision. It can't be. Again, before I came upon it personally, I didn't have. 

Brian [02:09:53] Time for I took. 

Meg [02:09:54] In. Yeah. You take an information and you ponder. You think about it. I hate that word. Ponder in your mind. Just a primary. 

Brian [02:10:01] Song. It's a hater. It's a church fragrance. 

Meg [02:10:04] I hate that word. I only know what words you search. You get confused. It really is a personal experience. You can have people help you. You can have people support you. I have one of my really sweet friends from high school. We talk on the phone a lot right now, and she's. She's kind of deconstructing some hard things and. I hate what she's asking me questions. It's very, very consensual on what she wants for me. I'm not throwing out information that she doesn't want to know. 

Brian [02:10:34] A pamphlet? Yeah. Like trigger happy. 

Meg [02:10:37] You a meeting? Come to us. Come to our. You know, our meeting about being Mormon. Yeah, right. She is very beautiful. And we respect each other as friends. So it really just rich conversation of feelings. But I hate being the bearer of bad news. And when she has a really hard question about, like, polygamy or or the Book of Mormon or the Temple and I, I share with her. And I'm like, this is not just my opinion. If you want me to send you. This book, this document, or even from L.D., I thought those essays and if you want me to send those to you so you can read them, you can. But I mean, being the I mean, just the other day we were talking and I told her about how present Snow was in his fifties or sixties, and he was impregnating 16 year old girls. And she was like, whoa. Like, just stuff like that. Like, just not knowing that and like that. That matters. Knowing just that one little detail in a church that you belong to when that fact alone is so dirty and so gross and that's hidden from you. You know, it's a beautiful thing to see people start to believe in what they want to believe in and start to explore themselves differently, but at the same time, answering hard questions where I know it's going to hurt them like it hurt me. Sucks. It sucks. Because I know that pain. I know the pain of reading and studying and finding answers and and seeing people treated so unfairly. And the church hiding it and not apologizing for it. There's just a spiral. And I hate that i. I sometimes in a part of. Delivering that. And if we're going to win, they come to me. I don't go to people. I don't believe in that because I don't think it helps for me or them. If people want to find out more, they know to come to me and they also know where so many resources are. But that sucks. I don't know if you've had that experience, the other experience or people come to you and see the look on their face or. Seeing them understand something new and seeing pain. Horrible. Yeah. 

Brian [02:12:49] Yeah. Yeah. And knowing what they're going through and what's next and what's next and what's next. And sometimes they're in a relationship where. Their their spouse is not going to be with them, at least not anytime soon. 

Meg [02:13:10] Yeah, that's a dark past. That's. 

Brian [02:13:13] That's hard. 

Meg [02:13:14] Yeah, I have some good buddies going through that right now and it's I've held one of them while they cried, while they worried about their spouse leaving. And I felt the other one while they cried because they're sad that their spouse doesn't accept them anymore. Yeah, it's terrible. And you don't want to be you don't want to be the reason why, but you want to be the source of comfort. And you also I mean, it's obvious that we are ex-Mormon. And so they they look at us the phone we can they can talk to and we understand and we get it. But it's so hard seeing people. It's like the point of no return, right? Like you look into too much for you're like, there's no going back. But I know if I keep going forward, it's going to be hard and ugly and possibly hurt my family. Yeah, and but you. But you can't. Since there was a point where I thought I could go back to church and I sat in church and opening him with praise to the man, and I was like. 

Brian [02:14:09] No, no, no. 

Meg [02:14:14] Because I thought I could be apart in a certain way. I'm like, I don't go to temple, don't wear my garments, I can drink coffee, do all the fun Word of Wisdom stuff, you know, enjoy life. But I could still be religious. In fact, meeting. I thought I could get there and then I. I could really be involved with my family more. I thought I could get there. Nope. Once you. Once you go past the point like there is. No, the church is a very unsafe place for me. Now, when I go and sit there, I just hear the things I heard in the lessons, the things I mean, there's just so much like anti progression and just life, not even just doctrine that we're talking about. That's not true or it was not portrayed accurately. It's just life on how they portray the world and like, man, I can't even like. It's just hurtful hearing how they portray the world in such a black and white way. And it's like, man, the beauty you're missing out on. I can't even I can't be in it anymore. And so there's that point. You know, I see so many people that are in the middle of I can't go back like I know too much where I can't be comfortable like I was before. But I know if I keep going forward, it's incredibly terrifying. And we always say, like Mason, I always say we're we're very lucky that we we did it together and we made it through. And some of our really good friends, they are incredible. They they're out of the church. And they actually split up for a little bit in their marriage and they got back together and the other one ended up leaving after. And it's just, oh, like I'm so grateful they made it through it, but it hurts people. 

Brian [02:15:51] And that's like it brings. 

Meg [02:15:51] Me back to like the Brad Wilcox thing. When that happened, I was so angry. Some of your church things go teach your lessons. Okay, that's great. You go, you go do that. If people are getting consent to listen to you and what you have to say about the gospel, that's great. Like teach your religion. When he talks so poorly about people like when his he had said, have you seen ex-Mormon? Their countenance are just ugly and they are sad and lonely and they are not happy. And I like what I don't care about. Well, boxing to me and I'm like, I don't care. That's not it. But my people listen to you who I love and who we have worked so hard to create a relationship. And it's terrifying to think. When will people choose the church? Over me, as, you know, something like that. I think it was awesome, Sophie said. How there are people you will have to uninvite to family gatherings because of their beliefs and how they contradict with yours. And you're telling people not to make their children to Christmas like it was really what you're saying or you're not. You, me involved the family. That's what we're talking about. Being Christ like wasn't an Christ like thing to preach, to keep families away from each other, to keep friends away from each other when they've made it work. And it's not going to work, they're going to figure it out. But to preach it, I think that is so dirty. And then people on the other side go ex-Mormon. They can't stay out of the church. They have to talk bad about it, you know, and I get it. But I'm like, but if you're saying you speak for God, you're kind of on a different pedestal. Yeah, you got to do better. Yeah. Hard. For. Yeah. Have you felt that that's. 

Brian [02:17:45] What felt like being being under being. 

Meg [02:17:47] Angry at how general authorities speak of, you know, ex-Mormon as a whole? 

Brian [02:17:53] Yeah, not so much. Because I really don't listen to him. I mean, but he heard the Brad Wilcox thing because it was just passed around like everywhere. Leave this. Get all of this guy, you know? 

Brian [02:18:05] Yeah. 

Brian [02:18:08] But, yeah, I still have a friend who was very into the church and was on several high councils and very strict. And he is no longer a member of the church and he still takes notes when he watches general conference. And I'm like, Why do you do that? I can well, I can't even. 

Meg [02:18:29] Like. So he can find contradictions. 

Brian [02:18:31] Just like the other saying not trying to be mean or vindictive or or just trying to understand. So, oh, so now they're saying this. Now this is this is what I mean. He's just fascinated by that. But he has always loved reading the papers. I mean, whenever we had a when we went, we went to school together and whenever he had a break between classes, he would go read the newspapers. I didn't know anybody that did that. He that's where he he loved that kind of thing. Loved watching the political talk shows and the talking heads back in the day. And and I never, you know, wanted to watch CNN or any a lot of those discussions or whatever. I mean, presidential debates were about the extent for me, but he loved all of it leading up to it. But yeah, he loves and just trying to figure out, he said together intellectually and it's like just it just does a piece, you know, in his head, which was part which was part of his problem, I think. 

Brian [02:19:21] About. 

Meg [02:19:21] It, is that when he does it? No, it's just for himself. 

Brian [02:19:25] Just interesting. He wants to know. Yeah, yeah. He I have primary songs, so I used to love the music. I love the music. And primary songs will hit me sometime. And I'm like, that is such a brainwash. 

Brian [02:19:40] Right? I mean, a prophet. Yeah, sounds bad. But when you realize some. 

Brian [02:19:46] Of them, it's like, Oh, I would have never thought that. Oh, my gosh. 

Brian [02:19:49] That is terrible. Yeah, it's bad. 

Brian [02:19:52] Real that and drill that and the beat and I sometimes that can be so trigger like but. 

Brian [02:19:58] It's so trigger song it's such a beautiful. 

Brian [02:20:01] Song. No no not it's not beautiful anymore. 

Meg [02:20:05] And I get the same feeling when I watch Kids America's Got Talent. When I sing something else, it's just little voices singing. That's why that's why people. 

Brian [02:20:12] Like you go. 

Brian [02:20:13] There you go. 

Meg [02:20:14] And and they don't believe it. They don't like they can't. 

Brian [02:20:18] Really even they will sing it. 

Brian [02:20:19] 5 million times. 

Brian [02:20:21] They will. Right. But I mean, how many. 

Meg [02:20:23] People I think in the church want to go, man, the testimony of my three year old, it's like they're doing what you're doing. That's all it is. And as much as you can believe in that, that that's not what's happening is they believe what you believe. Are they? They believe for themselves. They're believing what you believe. But they're not singing that because they're proclaiming this is what really it is. It's like they're singing that because they sing that every Sunday and they are being a part of the group. 

Brian [02:20:48] That's right. They're doing. 

Brian [02:20:49] It because that's what's expected and that's what gives. 

Brian [02:20:51] Your. 

Meg [02:20:52] Yeah, you're taught very, very sincerely and intensely how to be a follower. 

Brian [02:20:58] By good people, I think who mean well most of the time. 

Meg [02:21:02] They really do. They really. 

Brian [02:21:03] Do. 

Brian [02:21:03] I think that's the that's the really do for me is that they don't have any ill will. They're not brainwashed. 

Brian [02:21:08] Oh, they are. 

Brian [02:21:10] Giving a beautiful message, just like I used to see it as a beautiful message to these shining kids while their parents are learning. And it's just. It's a wonderful, wonderful thing. Yeah. I can't go there anymore. 

Meg [02:21:23] Me neither. It's. It's one. It just teaches. It teaches trust in. Such an interesting way to trust in people who have not earned your trust. Like you can say, I follow the prophet if he says and like says not knowing you. And and that's and that idea is so scary. I can just sit there mindlessly this I know like that's immediately a. 

Brian [02:21:50] Red flag because. 

Brian [02:21:51] I was talking to myself. Listen, hearing me, I'm like, oh. 

Meg [02:21:54] Right. It's like still in your own like, oh, that's not supposed to do. But how many times have you heard in the church where it's like, Oh, they're acting as a man and not as the prophet? Like, they all have their own things. And so then at what point do you say, do you look at something go? Are they acting as a matter of the prophet? Because we can look back in history and go, Oh, Brigham Young was acting as a man when he was talking about racist stuff and talking about the prophet when he's talking about God. And it's like, So how do you tell the difference? Because right now I think we're really living through LGBTQ history in the church. And what sort of history you're going to be on, are you going to be on the side? We're like, Oh, you're following the prophet because that is how he is speaking for man, right? Because I'm sure that's what they're going to be saying in a few decades of LGBTQ information going on this track where LGBTQ is accepted and that is legal, and that if that's the way it's going, what's our history in the, I guess, people? You know, a long time ago they had to believe that taxes are the priesthood is either. And that was very frustrating and very dark. And then they go, do I follow the prophet? Right. All my instincts on on just loving humans and accepting equality as this is what God wants, but it's not the prophet thing. You know, it's so conflicting. And so you put so much trust into someone on how to dictate your life and where it's going to go. And you don't know if they're speaking for God or they're speaking for themselves. And so that's when, you know, you have to be so critical and go, what do I believe? I have to I have to really dig down deep on where do I stand? Because this does not feel right. But I have to do it and do it. That's that's such a bad argument on are you doing the faith? Are you doing out of fear because you're in a lot of fear. What is what a dark place to be in and how to live your life? You're doing things fearfully. You're not going to get to heaven or you're not going to see your family again. And they are. That's I can't believe how anything goes doing out of fear rather than faith. 

Brian [02:23:51] Yeah. And a lot of conditioning as well, I think. I think part of the deconstruction is learning that the higher power is you. Yeah, you get to decide. Love like this comes up almost every episode that I do. Glennon Doyle's quote, You're a goddamn cheater. You are. I love that you get to be the cheetah. And to finally come to realize that, like you said, you can breathe. 

Meg [02:24:23] You can. 

Brian [02:24:23] Trust yourself. 

Brian [02:24:24] You can trust yourself because some of this other stuff, it never seemed right. But guess what? Because it wasn't. 

Meg [02:24:30] Yeah. Finding out that I feel like really discovering that. The Holy Ghost is just yourself. You have a you have a higher voice. You. You have a you have that voice in your head. And it's always going to be there. And your your. Your intuition is so powerful. And it's been there this whole time. 

Brian [02:24:50] You don't need to be told now. 

Meg [02:24:52] We don't need to be told the brain wrong or what you want. Right? Like there was we've been married for almost five years and every year of our anniversary come around. I just kept thinking I'd be ready to be a mom and every time be like, I am praying. Like I don't. Why do I not feel this? Why do I not feel it? And I would I feel like it was such a like a stab at my personality in my testimony because I'm just see, my friends have kids and I just did not feel ready. And I'm so glad I listened to my intuition on that, that I was not ready. And also, motherhood is so pushed when you're young, like I'm 24 and felt the pressures three years ago. Having a kid like that was ridiculous. To be having kids at 21, if I'm not ready, that is completely personal choice. But I'm so glad that I was smart on intuition and realizing that I was not broken for feeling that. But I did not need the Holy Ghost to tell me, Hey, tell me. Tell me that I can do it. Tell me that I can be a mom right now. Tell me that I'm ready for it. And then about about two years ago, I went through a miscarriage and I didn't know I was pregnant. And it was so dark. I was so sad. And it wasn't even like I was sad that I lost a child. It was like this idea of motherhood and this idea of being a woman and going through this. And I've been told multiple times by doctors that I could have a very hard time having children. And so there's all these ideas in my head at this time. And this was while I was leaving the church to probably a little bit after, but I was so I like wrapped up in this idea of womanhood and what my purpose was and my purpose. I don't know if I wanted it and it wasn't going to work for me, for my body. It was so bad. But then as soon as I left my intuition and stopped relying on other voices, like. Like you're fine. You love yourself and you know, you can live a long, happy life if kids don't work out. And even if it doesn't work out for you and if it's not a wish, if you just want to be the badass auntie your whole life, I know I could do it. I would gladly take that role. I love being aunt, my favorite. It's so great. But man, that intuition. When that came in, I let go of so much pain of waiting for the Holy Ghost to tell me. But when I was going to be a mom. 

Brian [02:27:16] So you used to do all kinds of regular practices to invite the Holy Ghost into your life. The Oh yeah, the prayer, the sacrament, the temple attendance, the all of that. What do you do now to invite your own self into your life? What do you do? You have anything that you've kind of replace that with that have become more of your own spirituality now that kind of invites yourself to the surface and calms all those inner voices that are telling you all information. 

Meg [02:27:47] What a good question. I'm. I think for a really long time. It's really hard to pray and not get an answer and just keep. Being told to pray to get answer for anything. What callers are going to to take my anxiety away to say we're going to marry. We rely on prayer so much. And now I rely on doing the work of, like, therapy. Like, if there's something I need to work through that's in my past that is really painful, I'm not going to pray that away. I need to go deconstruct that. I need to figure out why it's causing a block in my life or if there's I mean, when I was going through some things with my family leaving Mormonism, I was reading so much about how to respect them, how to respect myself. I listen to podcasts all the time and I realized I'm like, Oh, I needed a voice back. I really needed that voice back. And not having your prayers answer again is coming back to you like it's my problem. It's my responsibility. What am I not doing to not get an answer? And I, I really just worked so hard to find the answer. When I have a question, I read about it, listen about it, do the work. So I've been better at meditating and I'm very involved in yoga and I run never, ever. What if I would have been a runner? But it is like this euphoric to me. But it's something that really helps me think and and not just let this happen. Right. That's what you're taught with with meditation as thoughts will arise and you get to decide where your thoughts are going and what thoughts are intrusive thoughts and what thoughts are really yourself and what are the anxious thoughts? What are you going to do with those? Like it's really deconstructing your brain on What do I need or What do I need to learn? What do I need to hold on to? To make me make good decisions and. Just only relying on prayer for that is really hard because you just sit and wait and wait for answers. And my I know some people really love their patriarchal blessing. Mine was not great. I, I had a part in my patriarchal blessing where it was so intense, it said, You will be warned in times of danger and you'll be told to go a different path, like something like that. But it was very direct. Very direct. I hadn't read my patriarchal blessing in a long time, but I got that when I was 17 there around there. But that sentence messed me up. Like the girl already had chronic anxiety, and now you're telling her she's going to be warned in times of danger. And so thought I'd be like driving my way home from school and being like, that road feels dangerous. 

Brian [02:30:37] Where I just. I didn't know. 

Meg [02:30:40] I didn't know how to live. I felt so anxious all the time that something bad was going to happen. And I'd be warned and I'd be told to go different. Whether that path meant literally a different road or a path in life, that messed me up so that it I was just constantly waiting for answers. Coffee, like, where's the path? Where is the wrong way? And that sentence like seriously as. I mean, my anxiety wasn't healed already, but that heightened that I was so intensely looking for answers on where am I going? And now it's just the biggest relief of I don't have to wait for answers. And also there's so much calming you can have yourself when people the spirit calls me and God call me, whatever it's like. I'm so glad people have that and they feel that that's not the way I feel. Calm. I think I think listening. You're on intuition. Finding your answers on. On important questions that you've been waiting for answers. So powerful? Is that how you feel? Is that how you get your morality and how you feel with your thoughts in your life? 

Brian [02:31:50] I'm trying to get better at listening to myself. I've kind of always been a little bit of a pleaser, and I've also learned that nobody wants to hear my opinion. I'm a third child and my older brothers and sisters had opinions and they got in trouble with my parents and fought with each other because they had opinions. And I kind of learned don't have an opinion. 

Meg [02:32:17] Not even keep your opinions to yourself, but your. 

Brian [02:32:19] Opinions. 

Brian [02:32:19] Just just don't have what it creates too much of a problem. And so even to say, well, where should we go to dinner? I don't care what I am. And to this day, I'm like, I don't care. I don't know what kind of food I like more than another. I know I don't want to have the same thing for dinner that I had for lunch. But outside of that, whatever you guys want is fine. And it really is. And there's nothing really wrong with that. But I have a lot of those. I don't know my opinions on so many things. So I'm trying to find my what my opinions are and where I have strong opinions. And do I have a favorite color? And does it matter if I don't if I can't answer that, I don't I don't know. And what does it mean? Does it need to be a favor that everything is like that or is a favor? It's like, oh, I prefer that over other ones. I like that one. I see that one. I don't know what that means because I've never really thought about it. I've never given it much thought. So I'm trying to come into my own self with meditation and mindfulness and things like that that I've been trying to explore. Still not really good at either one of them, but I can see how it's helpful. 

Meg [02:33:30] Yeah. Have you liked the process or has it been stressful? It can be very fun to discover new things about yourself, but it's also like, Whoa, what did I think before? 

Brian [02:33:43] I'm too old to not know if I like something or not. 

Brian [02:33:48] No, no, but. 

Brian [02:33:49] No, but, I mean, really, I'm at this point in my life and I'm just asking myself, what what what kind of food do you like? What is your favorite color? I mean, we knew the answers to this when we were in elementary school, but I really didn't. And so I'm like, how much of my life I missed out on when now do I have to have a strong opinion where everything in the room is that color or we only eat these food? No, I. I've just it's I feel like I'm way too old to be coming to grips with some of these very, very basic questions that. I feel like it's out on the line. 

Meg [02:34:23] How many people change their answers to those basic questions, too? Because I think the question is, what's my favorite color? What's my favorite food? They are not the same now as they were when I was a kid. And so this discovery within yourself is. It's I can see the heartache with it on like, hey, I never really knew or I never really thought about it, but it's just like, Hey, we gotta to change our minds too. Like, people your age are changing their mind on what they love. 

Brian [02:34:54] To do on something beautiful. 

Brian [02:34:56] But my degree is in one thing. My undergraduate degree was in something else. My career was all on one path. Mm hmm. What if that's not my path and I'm fine with it? Yeah, but it's just like this is kind of a little late to be asking these questions. Why didn't I ask these when I was in my twenties? Yeah. And I just. Because I was on a path and I thought, this is what you do. You go get your MBA and you. And not that it was a bad thing or I regret it or anything else, but I couldn't say. 

Brian [02:35:22] That makes you wonder. 

Brian [02:35:23] Conscientiously asked myself at eight years old, Do I want to be baptized? I kind of feel like it was a lot of that. It was like, Oh yeah, of course you go to grad school and of course you do this and of course you of course, of course. I'm like. 

Meg [02:35:37] Yeah. 

Brian [02:35:38] But what if, you know, I don't know. 

Meg [02:35:41] You're just taught to follow the. 

Brian [02:35:42] Herd in the herd. 

Brian [02:35:44] And I did a good marriage. I did a great job, all of those things. Right? 

Brian [02:35:48] I did, too. 

Brian [02:35:49] And some of them are wonderful. Some of them are wonderful. 

Brian [02:35:53] And others a good thing to be a follower. 

Meg [02:35:55] But sometimes being a follower means. It means not even listening to your own voice. Not even knowing you have a voice. Yes. Yeah. And then understanding, like, wow, I could have been a leader. Could have been a really cool leader. You know, instead of a follower with everybody else, they could have led something cool. 

Brian [02:36:13] Well, and that was the other thing that I do have a little bit of anger at myself on is I was a leader in the church. I was in a Bishopric when it all started to fall apart for me. 

Brian [02:36:24] Yeah. 

Brian [02:36:24] And I was first counselor and. I saw myself. Remembered myself talking to others. In a way that I currently viewed as suspect. They came for help. And I told them what? Pray. Go talk to your bishop. They were struggling with this. And I said, let's get your temple recommend. They were. I'm like, I again, you were a teenager in high school having some of these issues. I was 50 years old. And I just need some help. And I should have just said, what can I do to help? I'm sorry, that sounds really rough. And put the whole handbook thing aside and actually I'm writing a book on it about a Mormon bishop that has a faith crisis and kind of goes through it because it's a lot of autobiographical. I'm going through a lot of these things about like. 

Meg [02:37:25] It's amazing. 

Brian [02:37:26] What should I do? What should I not have done? But I have a lot of regrets because I think I while I my heart was in the right place and I wanted to do what was right to help a lot of these people. I coached hockey and lacrosse forever as well and had a lot of those. Kids that I coached that. I think we gave them good experiences and help them grow. But how often was I? Giving them the wrong thing, what they needed when they really were struggling with something. I didn't condemn them for it and take them to task for an I instead should have said, Hey, what's going on? Come to work. Let's go take a look. You know, tell me what. And I have that relationship with a lot of them now, but I wish I had been there more then when they did because a lot of them are in their thirties now, you know. 

Meg [02:38:23] Yeah, well, you know, I think. You know, we we hear the ages, just the numbers. And I think people tie that phrase to a lot of our physical attributes. People get anxious about getting older and they go, oh, it is just a number. But I think it can be used for experiences too, because. We have a pretty big age separation, but our experiences with leaving the church is very similar. Being very orthodox and were obviously in leadership positions. But I grew up an incredibly religious family. I was held to a very high standard, and we both grew up or had our families very close to each other. Right. And age is just a number between me and you that we went through the same thing and we were both indoctrinated in a way, and we both had to not talk in a certain way or else we would be held accountable in a way that was seen as sinful or as whether not handled the way the church would want to. And I've seen so many different ages leave the church. I've seen people in their teens. I'm like, You're some of the lucky ones. You kind of got to keep them for a lot of the hard stuff. 

Brian [02:39:36] My daughter and you went on Trek with her. She was what was a teen. She she's like, this isn't for me. And she. 

Brian [02:39:41] Did that for her. 

Brian [02:39:42] Out of respect for me and my mom and my wife. And till she was like 18 and the day she turned 18, she just told us, I'm not going to do that anymore. But she was there when she was 12. I mean, she no, it wasn't. 

Brian [02:39:56] This wasn't and I think, man, to have that. 

Brian [02:39:59] And I feel guilty for that, too. Right. Because I do remember she graduated from seminary, for crying out loud. I made sure of it. 

Brian [02:40:07] It's it's so. 

Meg [02:40:08] It's such a personal experience. And also, your daughter didn't have your parents. You have an entire different life. 

Brian [02:40:17] My parents were not LDS. 

Brian [02:40:19] Right. 

Meg [02:40:20] But your whole upbringing on how you said how you were you learned how to keep your opinion or even have a lack of opinions. Right. Like that was eventually taught by you and your family. Like I think everyone has their story on who they are. And I think seeing people as humans in their own experiences rather than humans in the experience that we all want to be in, is so different because like my upbringing is, is very different than Mason's. But somehow we got on the same track of leaving the church together. Yeah. You know, it's very interesting. And it's guilt is a very, very hard thing to work with when you. You are a part of a machine when you didn't know you were a part of it. Like indoctrination. I really feel like is such a strong word because I totally made mistakes. I treated like I said, I hid some of the things I said to girls my age about modesty or about their standards. That's completely off. So I believe in and. Not being able to understand people in a different way, not being friends with people because they weren't Mormon. Like high school is a dark place for a lot of people and I worry how dark I made it for others. But I think not being life is just learning. And that's where age is just a number. You know, you can just keep learning. And yeah, I understand that's a difficult place to be in, but I think what you're doing is absolutely incredible because it doesn't to me, it doesn't matter where your life has been or what mistakes you've made. It's like I didn't know a whole lot of value. I just wanted to go on this. And because I believed in what you're doing and I believe in your book, that's so cool. Like really from the bottom of my heart age and it is this number on knowledge and learning. We all continue to learn. It's like, how many times have we heard, like J.K. Rowling stories? One of my favorite. She did become successful until her forties. And that was like just the beginning of her success. 

Brian [02:42:29] She just barely got a little success. And that was that. 

Brian [02:42:32] Just a little bit. 

Meg [02:42:33] And then I was like, Man. 

Brian [02:42:34] Look at what I want to gain. So like. 

Meg [02:42:36] I want I want to talk to her and be like, I'm just she had the Harry Potter idea when she was ten years old and she could go, Man, I could even make a million by the time I was in college, like, I could have been there. But life is. Life is so. Such a learning experience when you're supposed to learn things, too, because I definitely had red flags before when I was in the church, I had so many red flags and many times I thought, I'm like, Man, I just want to listen to that red flag. But I needed the separation of me and my family or me and my friends to be able to actually process what was happening. I don't think I could have done all that if I still lived very close to family and friends. And that seems so complex and so hurtful and like I can be around people, but it's such a personal experience and like, who knows, there could have been things in the church that you had to go through in order to see those red flags that you wouldn't have known otherwise. 

Brian [02:43:32] Right. 

Brian [02:43:33] That's true. You know. 

Meg [02:43:35] But I'm sorry for that. You feel it's very mutual. 

Brian [02:43:40] Likewise. Yeah. 

Meg [02:43:41] See, that's so weird. What a hard feeling. And so I flip off the church every time I pass on my story. 

Brian [02:43:51] So. So little turn, right? Yeah. They're just some days. But then, you know, the missionaries. 

Brian [02:43:57] I did that around here, you know, I couldn't have two hands on my steering wheel ever. 

Brian [02:44:01] I know, right? Right. I know. 

Brian [02:44:03] We had all sides of the street at the same time. 

Brian [02:44:06] There's a you just have to do a circle this way. 

Meg [02:44:08] And it's all around you. I know there's. We had the sister missionaries come over to our house yesterday. We haven't seen them quite a while, but. Oh, yeah. And the thing is, we're. We are nothing but good to them. We're. It's so hard cause I see them as part of the victim. Cause they don't know what I know. And they don't. They don't know a lot of the pain, especially seeing sister missionary show up for me and like this in the missionary in. I see how many how many a. What do you call like the district leaders or the zone leaders? You know, all the leadership in mission girls. I'm going to be a part of that. Just you are in service and you can't be in leadership when you signed up for that. 

Brian [02:44:50] But to be a mother. 

Meg [02:44:52] You're going to be a mom. To me, so great. And moms are great. I love my mom and I love motherhood. But but it's so I just. 

Brian [02:45:00] Why is leadership and career off the table then? Right. 

Brian [02:45:03] Right, right. 

Brian [02:45:05] So be great if I had the choice instead of you making a forum for us. 

Brian [02:45:10] I know. 

Meg [02:45:12] And it's it makes me so sad, but we always just say, hey, we're not in the church anymore and just know that if you guys ever need a meal or you ever need a roof over your heads for any reason, and there is a monster on the other end like, hey, if it starts raining, you guys run back like you have a place to stay. Like, make sure you know that. And that's that's so hard because I don't know. 

Brian [02:45:36] Well, that's awesome that you can do that for them. 

Meg [02:45:38] Yeah, well, I feel like they get taken advantage of a little bit. Like they're too young. I didn't know anything when I was 18. And we're sending people in other countries to do some serious work to say, you're not going to heaven without us. Very. And that's so weird. I didn't used to feel that way. You know, I felt like missionary work was the greatest thing ever. 

Brian [02:46:02] Isn't that kind of interesting? How, like, every couple of months, there's something else that comes to your front of your mind and you're like, I never realized. I thought that before. 

Brian [02:46:10] You're like. 

Meg [02:46:11] That. I thought, I'll follow in Private Island just but that song came up on my TikTok feed and I was like, I have not heard that song in so long. And like the tone of it, you know, and the repetitive, like, seriousness that is like. How do we not see that as a red flag? What if we could just switch the profit out with someone else. 

Brian [02:46:34] Like Führer or the President? 

Meg [02:46:37] Like, what if we said that. 

Brian [02:46:38] We would be up in arms? 

Meg [02:46:39] Well, everyone would be like, wait a sec. Yeah, yeah. Like, it's just intuition from. I thought, coming back to intuition, listening to yourself. That's a powerful, so powerful. 

Brian [02:46:54] So powerful. 

Meg [02:46:55] Yeah. How is that? How is your family done with everything? Have you. Just being a dad and seeing your family grow in a different way. So great. 

Brian [02:47:05] Fantastic. All of my kids left the church before me, and I would say my youngest left about the same time as my wife. But until then, she was getting ready to go on a mission. And they are all doing great, great, great, loving life. Enjoying the world. Making great friends. Just. I couldn't I couldn't help. I couldn't wish more for him. All of the things that were supposed to happen when they left the church, none of them happened to him. They just kind of they're still. 

Meg [02:47:45] Say that louder for the people in the back. 

Brian [02:47:47] Right? Seriously? Nothing. 

Meg [02:47:50] The monopoly on happiness and forever. My always been. Yeah. The thing I hold the church accountable for the world is just such a beautiful place. 

Brian [02:48:01] Well, if I. 

Brian [02:48:01] Leave the church, I'm just going to start everything immediately. You're going to say there's nothing? 

Brian [02:48:05] Oh, no. It's like my neighbor said by something, then. 

Meg [02:48:10] And that was when I went overseas to Ukraine and taught English there. And I went to one of their. I think it was like a seminary. I think graduation was probably a better term for it, where the the men who were in the seminary were going through and receiving their real service. I don't know the real term for it, I. 

Brian [02:48:30] Think for the LDS Church or for. 

Brian [02:48:31] That. No, no, no, no. 

Meg [02:48:33] For like Catholicism. For being to be a priest. 

Brian [02:48:36] Okay. 

Meg [02:48:37] And I saw I was in this cathedral that was just floor to ceiling, hand-painted from hundreds of years ago. Right. And Ukrainians are absolutely incredible people. What they're going through today about their history is they are unbelievable. They are incredibly strong, independent, beautiful, beautiful people. And I remember sitting there in that chapel, and I was still Mormon at the time, very Mormon. I was 19 and I was in that chapel and I was like. So like, are they happy? Like. 

Brian [02:49:09] They can't. 

Meg [02:49:10] Be happy though, because. 

Brian [02:49:11] I'm told. 

Brian [02:49:12] Because I have the truth. 

Brian [02:49:13] I have all the happy. 

Meg [02:49:14] I have to get. That feeling was so conflicting and I was. That was probably 1 to 1 of my first. Experiences of understanding the churches and everything, because I was able to experience an entire country of people who believe in something else or someone who didn't believe in anything and the beauty that that country had and the things I got to experience, the people I got to meet, the it was amazing. And I realized, like, I would never walk up to someone and go, You're not as happy as I am. Like, what a what a horrible thing to teach and to and to have that pride. 

Brian [02:49:50] To Brazil. Still, I'm like, I left more and I still don't know, Bruce said. 

Brian [02:49:55] Just flat out ego. 

Meg [02:49:58] Yeah. Seriously. And what is what a toxic trait to have? And. And honestly, that was one of my one of my big wake up calls with President Nelson because I earlier I said just like how I could still hold on to him and be like, oh, and I something like this crisis, like I could still hold on to that place profit. He has a lot of language concerning the monopoly on happiness that the church has and like you, will not be happy without us. And I'm like, what a what a disappointing way to look at the world. 

Brian [02:50:29] Well, they're trying to convince everyone else that you left and you're not going to be happy. And when they see you going to breakfast on a Sunday with a smile on your face and your bare shoulders. 

Brian [02:50:42] Well, my mama can't even. 

Brian [02:50:44] Figure that out. 

Meg [02:50:45] Yeah, yeah. 

Brian [02:50:47] You can't be happy. That's just pure hedonism. You're. Yeah, yeah. 

Meg [02:50:54] And, you know, some people's opinions of that will never change. And some people who were probably really close to me who are keeping that sense of that, they don't believe that I am currently as happy as I was in the church, you know, that my happiness will forever be lower than who I used to be and I'll be lower than theirs. I think that that bothered me for a minute because I could feel like I could feel it and some people, but I'm not ever going to be truly satisfied or happy in life. And you just have to. One of our own, our favorite quotes we say in our house, we've got it. There's this old dude we follow on TikTok. He's like in his eighties and the guy is just the homie he preaches. Great thing. And the other day it was a few months ago, but now we say all the like. He says, Hey. 

Brian [02:51:38] Protect your peace. Let them be wrong. 

Meg [02:51:42] That's it. I think just riding his bike, like telling this. 

Brian [02:51:45] I think I saw him. Yeah, that's. 

Meg [02:51:47] Amazing. Yeah, like we see that all the time. Whenever there's, like, a little. And it doesn't have to be true things. It can be anything that is just making you upset at something. And it's like, protect your peace. Let them be your own. Yeah. Let them be wrong that you're happy. Yeah. Like, really? And it's funny because I can say. 

Brian [02:52:05] Right now. 

Meg [02:52:07] I'm going to live me and be happy. 

Brian [02:52:09] And well. 

Brian [02:52:10] And so I started to see it as like a lot of people that I know in the church are so overwhelmed, a lot of bishops especially so overwhelmed with the work and the weight of the world. And they are amazing people and they are not trained for this. They are not prepared for this. It's far too much work for them. 

Brian [02:52:31] Yeah. 

Brian [02:52:32] They're like they they see that they're giving up their current for eternal celestial glory. And I and I see it as you're giving up the only life you know you're going to have for one that probably doesn't even exist. 

Meg [02:52:49] Yeah. Or you don't even know how it works. 

Brian [02:52:52] You're not sure how it works. And yeah, there are a lot of people that say it doesn't exist and you're giving up all of this time watching your kids grow up and just going to the park and having a mimosa on a Sunday morning. 

Meg [02:53:05] That relaxation doesn't really exist in the church. Like fully relaxing. 

Brian [02:53:10] You need to. 

Brian [02:53:10] Keep fully letting go. 

Brian [02:53:12] You're busy. 

Brian [02:53:13] Both physically. 

Meg [02:53:14] And mentally. 

Brian [02:53:15] Physical education, there's there's there's no fitness. Now it's I've done far more fitness sense. I left the church and fitness and nutrition and everything else than I did in the decades before. 

Brian [02:53:28] Me to just take care of yourself. 

Meg [02:53:30] I don't know. There's no way I can do that. Be athletic and healthy today. If I drink and smoke weed. 

Brian [02:53:37] How could you? And you can't be happy either. 

Brian [02:53:40] But that's. 

Meg [02:53:41] Okay. One of the things so I don't put on a med card for my chronic migraines. I went on a huge medical trial to try dozens of different medications. I was getting injections in my head. Nothing was. 

Brian [02:53:52] Working. Injections in your head? 

Brian [02:53:54] In my head and oh, my, my huge, huge needles. 

Meg [02:53:57] In my head and in my neck trying to block off nerve. They were nerve blockers. They and and I learned it's kind of that way. But if you have migraines on both sides of your family, you are either 90 or 95% sure to have migraines in your life and greater chance of them chronically. I'm the only one in my family who got that glorious gene. I do have them on both sides of my family. My brothers don't have, and my mom gets them every once in a while. But I went through this. It was horrible, this big medical process. And and it was with a wonderful doctor. I have nothing against them. He was absolutely wonderful, but I just felt there was not an answer for me. And then we moved to Arizona. Like in between that time I was going to him and I was like, Do I fly back and see him? Do I continue this process or do I go do something else? And I had to be on a new medication or group of a medication every like two months. And so my friend in Arizona, she was on medical marijuana for a chronic illness. She had something different. But she's like, you should just try it. And it was legal here in Arizona for med card and then a few months later, legal recreationally. And I tried it and I remember the first time I tried to I just felt involved. Like I just cried. I was like, this is how other people feel. And it gave me my life back. I went to like there were times where I was just like, this really sad, like this is my life and and then being having that idea of motherhood, of feeling like this is this is who I will be as a mother. And being in bed every day by 6:00 and sometimes earlier than that, just being in so much pain in my career is going to be changed. And who I am going to be with this chronic pain like and people don't understand because chronic pain is so hidden. And so it's this idea of healing. Chronic pain is still in its process. And I, I shared was like on social media just how much medical marijuana has given me my life back in such a profound way. And, and that was one of the first things where I was like, doing this is nothing. What they said I was really medical marijuana or just marijuana in general. I did nothing. What I was taught, how dangerous that is, is the amount of pain that natural thing can take away is still absolutely incredible to me. It is like and I want to be able to push it to people, but it's still like I know recreational is is okay in the church but still like people won't touch it because people have come to me who have chronic illnesses or they have that pain or whatever it is. And I'm like, I have a great option for you. Nothing. Don't go to the doctor if you're going to doctors work. And I'm for that 100%. Right. 

Brian [02:56:42] But if it's not working and prayer isn't working, yeah. 

Meg [02:56:45] Heard now both presuppose and start working either like it's a great thing and it is. Wow it's beautiful. And I that was a judgment that was kind of fun. I actually didn't feel any pain with that one. I kind of like when people judge me for that and if I'm like middle finger to you because I got my life back, like I am proven and also like people didn't even really know I was on it. Like I would be with people and people think that you are just like completely high. It's like, no, that's not really how it works. I just it's been great. And that was, was one that while making my exit I was like, haha, this was a good one. I still, I think it still makes people a little upset but I'm, it's a great. 

Brian [02:57:26] Thing. 

Brian [02:57:27] What do you say when you're riding your bike about other people? What do you say about that? Right. 

Meg [02:57:31] Oh, that's weird. 

Brian [02:57:32] It saves lives. Yeah. And I'm sorry. 

Brian [02:57:36] I don't need to explain myself to protect my peace. 

Meg [02:57:40] So if you have any questions about it, please come. And also, I know all the good flavors and everything of all the edibles, so I have recommendations for what's natural, too. That's. That was so funny. One of my good friends, when she was deconstructing the church and she was looking at word of wisdom and things and she she's a very natural path girl and very into nature. I mean, she's she really. And science, too. But she loves like herbal teas and she is a big believer in and using healthy organic ingredients to help boost your energy. And then she was like, Wait a second, coffee's natural. And that was like, I big like. 

Brian [02:58:21] Do I like. 

Meg [02:58:23] Or it's habit? Like natural things are good. And she was like, I use coffee bad like coffee. Natural Diet Coke is not natural and not natural. 

Brian [02:58:33] And that's why it's so bad for 24 hours. 

Brian [02:58:35] So does that swig, right? Come on. 

Brian [02:58:37] Have a cup of coffee. It's totally mimosa. 

Meg [02:58:40] Seriously, it took me way longer, too, to not be addicted to soda than a coffee. I forget that I have coffee some days, especially now that I'm being medicated for ADHD. I realize I'm like, Oh my gosh, I use caffeine to medicate for baby and ADHD and not other things. So now when I'm on my actual medication, I'm like actually done assessments for what my brain needs. I always thought, Oh, I forget that, like, caffeine's a thing like, but I was so addicted to it when I was in high school and college and it was like, Oh, well, that makes sense. It's all there. But I don't know if that's because of the medication side or because coffee just isn't as effective because it doesn't have all those, all the sirups. 

Brian [02:59:24] Yeah, who knows. And I will say that my friend that does the the ketamine and the hallucinogenics on occasion. He is way into hydration. He says, I drink almost exclusively water now. He said, I used to drink like eight sodas a day. He says, Now I just drink more water. And he says, I'll have a couple of beers a month. Maybe that's about it. But he's looking at it. I mean, he's taken all this approach. He says Your body is basically a bag of water. 

Meg [02:59:53] Yeah. Oh, I read the same thing. I I'm in big on liquid. I need to drink water. But being a teacher, it was really hard to, you know, drink a ton of water and use the restroom. 

Brian [03:00:05] When. 

Meg [03:00:05] My time was yeah, my time was not mine. And so like, good ideas are so powerful and just putting those in water, it's like the bow is more like, Wow, I feel so great. Things are my body well. 

Brian [03:00:17] And that's what he's saying. He's like, I can't believe how often I start to feel grumpy or I start to see triggers and I start to get mad. It's like, Dude, have a glass of water, eat a sandwich. You're just hungry. Come on, you know? 

Brian [03:00:27] Yeah. 

Meg [03:00:29] I know. That's another. I think actually he was leaving the church, too, because you're just kind of talk all the word of wisdom, and then you're good, right? 

Brian [03:00:35] Except for all the potato chips and the diet drinks and the caffeine and those. Yeah, whatever. 

Brian [03:00:40] Yeah. 

Meg [03:00:41] You can't have one coffee, but you can have as much Diet Coke that equals, you know, three coffees and you're fine. 

Brian [03:00:46] Mental gymnastics, it never is going to get. 

Brian [03:00:49] That. 

Meg [03:00:49] So confused. And then oh, and I learned that there was is drinking wine in the temple. I was like. 

Brian [03:00:54] Yeah. 

Brian [03:00:55] That's how it's interesting. Okay. 

Brian [03:00:58] Yeah. 

Meg [03:00:58] And you're like, Oh, wait, but that's not what I was told. Or is this the classic when we read Wine in the Bible and it's like, No, that's grape juice. 

Brian [03:01:06] It's just grape juice. It's just Kool-Aid. 

Brian [03:01:10] You mean it can. 

Meg [03:01:10] Be like, Oh, I love grape juice. This is great. And then me being like, why can't we have great juices accurate. 

Brian [03:01:16] This is red. 

Brian [03:01:17] Like, screw that, give me the mimosa is so much better. This is the best grape juice ever. 

Meg [03:01:22] I that's been such a fun experience too is just experiencing the world outside of Mormonism. And it is that I as someone do and I think I'm a people person, I think I can make good conversation. But meeting people and not having surface level conversations or not having small talk is something that's like a really hard barrier for me to get past and that I went out with some of my work colleagues the first few times that I was really drinking and I didn't get like flossed or anything, but like just having that little edge taken off. Yeah, like, I don't want to sound like alcohol is the greatest thing ever because I can understand, obviously, there's a lot of health issues where you can abuse it, but there is such a part of me where I got to connect with people that I haven't been able to connect with previously with just letting my anxiety take control or just being so nervous on what I was going to say, or like, these are new people I want to present myself correctly and then realizing like everyone's just chillin, everyone's just chatting. I have got to have some of the greatest relationships. Yeah, because the first time we really wanted to connect, we went out for drinks and after that it was like a friendship just soared because walls were down. I was off and I don't know if you've had that experience. 

Brian [03:02:46] Yeah. Oh, yeah, that's cool for sure. Yeah, that's great. I've got a friend that's got actually he's on one of my episodes, he's got tattoos all the way down his arms and he uses it to weed out people if they have a problem with his tattoo. He's like, okay, great, good, my friend. Waste any time at all. 

Meg [03:03:06] And people would say that's just mental. But it's like, if you're going to judge me on just how I look. 

Brian [03:03:11] And judge. 

Brian [03:03:12] Me on this, then go. Just go, judge. 

Meg [03:03:14] Yeah, like at all. I don't wanna be around. 

Brian [03:03:16] You want to be okay? 

Brian [03:03:18] I want to have a drink and relax and, you know, make good friends. But that's what his doesn't even need a drink for it. He just has that. And if people are upset by it, he's like, okay. Good to know. 

Brian [03:03:26] Yeah. Well, and. 

Meg [03:03:27] Also, like, not being in such a mormon community too, as like people connect through coffee and going out like, really? And it is awesome. And even if you're not even a big drinker or you're not super into it is. 

Brian [03:03:42] Being. 

Meg [03:03:43] In that atmosphere. And I mean, it's so great to sit and drink with your boss. I just got to say, like, it is the coolest thing because you always like your boss is on bigger and then when you're able to sit down, have a drink with your boss and you're just chatting and swear words are out there, especially in an elementary setting where like. 

Brian [03:04:03] Us, adults. 

Meg [03:04:03] Are always so. 

Brian [03:04:04] Professional. 

Meg [03:04:05] Together. 

Brian [03:04:05] Who has more need to swear than. Than elementary teachers? 

Brian [03:04:09] I gotta be honest. 

Brian [03:04:09] Give me a break. 

Meg [03:04:10] Teachers. I have never seen people party harder than teachers do. I'm not kidding. And when I have gone out and partied with my friends, the bartenders have always told us, are you guys. 

Brian [03:04:20] Teachers? At one point. 

Brian [03:04:24] You're a hockey player. 

Brian [03:04:25] So no, I think we're. 

Meg [03:04:27] Going to be like a Friday and we're just party. And one day we went out and one of my teacher friends was wearing a t shirt that had said like, I don't know, world best teacher or something on it, and I'm still partying in this t shirt and I'm like, You should probably change next time. 

Brian [03:04:42] Maybe don't advertise that. 

Meg [03:04:43] Maybe we'll advertise that we're teachers. 

Brian [03:04:46] Okay. So completely off topic. Yeah, whatever our topics were, I mean, I get in some of the more random topics on this thing and I love it and I leave most of them in just because it's it's interesting. You mentioned your mom several time. How's your dad doing? 

Meg [03:05:00] Yeah. Um, he. I think he's accepting he. There is a time where it is really hard for him, I think. And it was really difficult and. I just try to be understanding through it all, but then also wanted to hold them accountable for being my dad. Yeah. But things are really good now. And having my brother and my sister in law out to help as well. 

Brian [03:05:32] Where did they go first? Who were you first? 

Meg [03:05:35] It was kind of interesting. So my my brother was kind of out culturally like when he before he met his wife, he was, you know, not going to church and kind of with a different life. But it wasn't a state thing. Like the church isn't true. He just kind of optimism thing. And so I think that kind of my parents had to understand that. But then when he met his wife, they kind of got back into church and got married in the temple. And then after the temple, that's when they kind of started deconstructing. And that was around the same time as I was. So we kind of left together around this probably within the same year, but that was doctrine leaving. But he had kind of been the whole cultural aspect of the church was had always been hard for him. Really agree with it. But also something I really admire about him. He is really good about not caring whether people think. And so he's just always done him. 

Brian [03:06:31] Great quality. 

Meg [03:06:32] Wonderful quality. 

Brian [03:06:33] I never used to think that, but I think that's a great quality. 

Meg [03:06:36] It is. It really is. And he is himself all the way through. And so it wasn't necessarily like, is this a church problem or is it like, am I figuring myself out in the church? He just like I'm just. 

Brian [03:06:47] I don't care. 

Meg [03:06:48] Yeah, I'm doing things for me. And so having him like introduced that aspect to my parents I think helped our process. But yeah, things that like things are really good in my family now, but I think that's why I get so anxious during General Conference and things because I just, I get nervous some things aside or even like I don't think my relationship with my family will change. I just know that I think we think of each other in a very respectful way right now and we show up as we are. And I just get scared of what church is going to say to make them think of me differently. Not necessarily like we can still go on family vacations, we can still show up together, we can still be a family. 

Brian [03:07:29] But it's not like I'm not invited to Christmas. 

Brian [03:07:32] Right? 

Meg [03:07:32] I sometimes I think, like that acceptance can go up and down with what's said in the church. Yeah, not necessarily even how they feel about me. And that's. That's hard. That sucks. And I. Kind of it's kind of personal and it kind of sucks. But one part I had to really deconstruct was I. I really believe the church took my dad away from me. He was always in an intense calling. And that was that was something else that I called B.S. on really early on in my life in the church. And they were all about families and family time together. And I'm like, my dad's never home. 

Brian [03:08:09] And right. 

Meg [03:08:10] He is off doing church things. And my mom raised us and my my dad, he he's been wonderful at providing for our family. And he started a business from the ground up in finance. And really, he is one of the hardest workers I know. And he has taught me how to be a hard worker. Like, really, I really do. That was not how we talk about the whole service aspect. My dad taught me how to be a hard worker because he valued it, not because the church told him to. Right. And I'm really grateful for that, because I, I really think so much of how I think I push my career, how I push myself and education is because of him and taught me very early how to do that. But it's been him starting his business and always having a calling in the church. I was a very, very angry child for saying I love the church thing, I care about families, but my dad was never home and then things like he never got a break either. Felt like it was an intense calling after an intense column, like constantly. And then I would see like my friend's parents or their dads, like chill. And I was a primary teacher and they got to be home all the time and they always and who knows if they were saying no to callings, I don't know. But I feel like some people just stayed in easier callings and then some people were just meant to keep growing in callings. And that was my dad and I was very upset about that. And I had to I've got to deconstruct that. And I still I remember I was in the church when this happened. My mom goes on women's conference at BYU every year. When they do the big missions, don't like stay in the dorms, you know, and all that. And so one year she was just telling me about like what she learned and I had never gone with her. She goes with her mom and her sister, but she she told me at one time that it was Elder Gong's wife was talking and she was like, I don't even call another gong. I call him Elder gone like, go and eat because she's never home. And then it was like this joke. 

Brian [03:10:12] So funny and it made me. 

Meg [03:10:14] So sad and I was so sad. And when we were in the church, when we were very, very active, I told Mason, you are never taking the role as a bishop, like you are not doing that to me and you not doing that for our family because it sucked being the kid and feeling like every other everybody else's family was put first, not even by him. I don't even blame him. It was that. What was I that's. That's what was asked with him. 

Brian [03:10:40] Expected, recontacted. 

Meg [03:10:42] Yes. 

Brian [03:10:44] And consecration. Right. You sacrifice everything in this life because oh, you're not going to get anything in the next one because it's not there. 

Brian [03:10:52] But exactly. Yeah. You do. 

Brian [03:10:54] Sacrifice everything. 

Brian [03:10:55] Right? Yeah. Yeah, really. I know it's it sucks because. 

Meg [03:11:00] I, my dad has put so, so much into the award with multiple awards. Multiple stakes. Yeah. And I, I can look at the work that he's done to me like I'm, I love that he's a hard worker, but I know for an absolute fact that I would be better friends with my dad if he did not involve himself, involve him really in all those callings because he would have been able to be home more. If you are home more, you get to be with your family more. And I think that's why really me and my brothers are so close with my mom because she was always around. She never worked very she worked very, very slightly. And then and when I was in high school and quit shortly after, she just wanted to be home. But I think our we really just prayed for the relationship with my mom because she was she was home. 

Brian [03:11:55] And all of. 

Meg [03:11:56] You her like that. We knew. 

Brian [03:11:58] Her. We knew her. 

Brian [03:11:58] Knew her. Got to spend time with her. 

Meg [03:12:00] Yeah. And there was a time where my mom was, she was Relief Society president and my dad was in a state calling at the same time, and I. I was still in elementary school. So then my little brother was on elementary school and my two brothers on middle school. I don't think my oldest brother even had his driver's license. I don't think he was a sophomore and we were on our own a lot at night. I remember us just us four children at home, alone without parents a lot. And I don't know if my mom or dad eventually said something or like it came up in conversation or if the Bishopric noticed something in our family. But they released my mom pretty shortly after to be there to say that she was only a side person for like a year. I think when you're supposed to be, I think it's a three or four. 

Brian [03:12:48] It's a. 

Brian [03:12:48] High energy calling to. 

Brian [03:12:50] Very high energy and high demand. 

Meg [03:12:52] Yes. And my mom is so good at that. And she loved it. She was so great at that. But she needed some at home with her kids. Yeah, we were kids. And I'm so glad that however that planned out, however I was told in October I had an impression. I don't know what happened, but I'm so glad that happened because if my mom would have been in for another few years, I think it would have really hurt me and my brothers to kind of just defend for ourselves. And that's that's something that I think the church talked about so much is just like love and service and callings and what they know and receiving the blessings. Right. And I have taken the word blessing like completely out of my vocabulary when I use it, because I don't believe in that. I believe my family has what they have because of my dad's hard work and how he has chosen to show up and provide for his family. But at the same time, we also lack a relationship with him because he had to have a relationship with everybody else. And it it seriously pissed me off more when more when other people got more time with my dad than his own family. Yeah, that was hard. And I. And that's not. I know it's not just an experience of mine. I think so many people go through that in the church wives, children, spouses and especially, I'm sure, higher ups. Having your family be a part of a serious calling for taxing. It's so hard. 

Brian [03:14:25] The thing that gets me is I look at a lot of that and it's like it doesn't have to be. Hmm. It doesn't have to be. I mean, what if you only had mutual once a month? 

Meg [03:14:36] Yeah. 

Brian [03:14:37] What if you had instead of a mutual you had a soccer team. 

Meg [03:14:44] Yeah. 

Brian [03:14:46] Because then. 

Brian [03:14:46] You know, I thought it was more family night. 

Meg [03:14:49] What I found is that there's a word every once a month and I wasn't so focused on we have an activity to plan. I have to have time doing this. I have to go and babysit teenagers. Right. You know what? If it was just being with your family. 

Brian [03:15:01] When the kids are on one night and all the leaders are on another, and then all the adults are on a third, and so there's three nights. So now who gets to take the kids to soccer and to baseball into it? So. But I think that's part of the overall design of the church is to keep yourself busy. 

Meg [03:15:18] It is. And it's I. And they also pay me to see my dad. So tired, too. But by the time he would come home. His exhaustion was. It was like there was no room for anything else. And so it wasn't like I ever resented him for coming home. And, like, we didn't really get to spend a lot of time with them. It was like, you're so tired from going to work, going straight to church, dealing with other people's problems. Right. And not being with your family. And a lot of those times not eating either, right? Because he's not coming home until 8:00. He's not having dinner anymore. 

Brian [03:15:57] Yeah, we had to start at six and go till 11. 

Meg [03:16:01] Yeah, see, that's awful. It's just. Yeah, it was. And I felt like I, you know, you have just such a simple answer. Like, so don't. 

Brian [03:16:10] Don't, so don't. 

Meg [03:16:12] But you are so ingrained to this is what you're saying. 

Brian [03:16:16] Three, you're your with a new program and they just add to the other program and every bishop comes in and wants to make their own thing, but they can't give up the old thing, so they have to add to it. And Relief Society wants to do a new thing, and that's in addition to everything else. And the young women have this neat idea and they will do that in addition to. 

Brian [03:16:32] Yeah, there should be a. 

Brian [03:16:34] Limit, there should be a max limit. So you can spend 5 hours at the church this week outside of Sunday and only two on Sunday outside of that, really whatever meetings you need to cancel. Cancel. 

Meg [03:16:44] Really? And yeah, it's. 

Brian [03:16:48] But they're led by divine inspiration, though. So they don't have to use common sense or science. 

Brian [03:16:52] Or or they just ignore. 

Meg [03:16:55] They ignore that pain. Right. Because I really hope to believe that my dad was thinking of his family when he's with other families. Like I remember tithing settlement was the worst time of the year when my dad was bishop who like we didn't see him during Christmas time. 

Brian [03:17:08] Like, right. 

Meg [03:17:09] What a time to be with your family. And they I remember they tried to start it earlier so they would have more time in December. It was still just like no matter what month you put it in. 

Brian [03:17:18] So now we don't see him for Thanksgiving or Christmas? 

Brian [03:17:20] No. Right. 

Meg [03:17:21] Like it takes up so much time. But that's why they call it a calling, right? They don't call it a position. They don't call it a. 

Brian [03:17:30] It shouldn't be called a sentence. 

Meg [03:17:32] Really. It's it's a calling because they want to have that name really thrust upon them. I'm like, this is your calling and life. This is what you're supposed. 

Brian [03:17:40] To be doing. 

Brian [03:17:41] I don't think that's what your dad wanted. I think your dad really wanted to do what was best and what was his mind, what was best for the family. And that's the thing is I think that gets so taken advantage of. 

Meg [03:17:53] Yeah. Like you think you're blessing your family for doing more for the church. When it was like, I didn't need blessings. 

Brian [03:17:59] I needed a dad. 

Meg [03:18:01] I needed a dad, I needed I needed him to come home earlier. I needed and even be around like my mom was. And and then also when he was around, he was so tired. And that sucks to say, like, man, everyone would suck the energy out of my dad. I would love to make my dad that exhausted. I know I can do it. Okay. Yeah, you know, it's. It was hard and I feel like I didn't get to understand my dad in a way that I wanted to. You know, it's there's there's a friendship you create with your parents. And I think that friendship is really cultivated and created when you're a child, you go through a lot together and then. It's it's hard to get to know someone in a deeper way after they've they've missed out on so much and I've missed out on so much I've missed out on a lot of things with my dad and I. My dad is he's really great outdoors. And I. I would see my uncles like, you know, go out and fish and I can do more things. And we got a cabin when I was in junior high out by Strawberry Reservoir and we would go there and I liked going there, but I felt like it just it wasn't a lot of family time. It was very like we like General Conference and there wasn't a lot of I know I thought that was like my dad's dream. And now they have a different cabin up in Idaho. And we were. Mason I flew out there in January and to go see them and spend some time at the cabin. And he just told me the other day, he's like, I haven't been there since January. I like your dream, like you love the outdoors. And I it's sad to see that like even my relationship with hurt, but also seeing the things that he loves to do are also put on the backburner. It sucks too, but it's also I know he loves the people in his world and I know he was just barely released as bishop and so he's getting in. He was in the Bishopric when I was a kid. Yeah. And then he was in the Stake President. What kind of business? He was a secretary. Yeah. And then he's been in multiple scout groups, he's been in multiple young men's presences as a young men's president. And then right after the bishop and then now they have a fly calling. My parents do. And so just a lot of things after another and those calling the were like five or six years at of time and his like his secretary calling that was like six years five years is a long time. 

Brian [03:20:43] I was a priest group leader for seven years before I was in the Bishopric and I was in a Bishopric before that. And I was just like, Yeah, I can't keep doing this. 

Meg [03:20:54] Yeah, it's how much time, so much time away from your family and the callings left forever. Like just between Bishopric Bishopric being in the Bishopric and being the bishop and then being a secretary. That's like 15 years. Yeah. Just with those three. 

Brian [03:21:10] Yeah, that's an adult life. 

Meg [03:21:12] Yeah. And a lot of my think about like all my teen years sucks and like, I don't have a lot of memories sitting with my dad at church. He was not on our appeal very often. Yeah, it was very, very rare. And it's, it's hard because I know he has so many great friendships throughout his callings in general. And kids though, and I know that those friendships have really helped him in a lot of ways. And so friends have been good to me. But it's also like. Friendships are family. You know, it's hard that's a hard thing to go through. But you just. 

Brian [03:21:52] And why does it drive. 

Brian [03:21:53] One or the other? 

Brian [03:21:55] Yeah. 

Brian [03:21:56] Because God wants an understanding. That's an asshole. 

Meg [03:21:59] Yeah. Like, that's fair. That's. I got a I got to be with more of my friend's dads than I got to be with my own dad. Yeah. And and that was. It's funny how, like, you just kind of wake up to thoughts, but, like, I was angry about that when I was a kid. I mean, I would. I would, I knew I like, I call bullshit on it. It wasn't even like, oh, we're doing something wrong. Like it wasn't even one of those indoctrination moments I'd be watching. General Conference and then saying like talking about the family and I'd be like, Yeah, whatever. Like. 

Brian [03:22:32] I care about mine. Yeah. And I, you know. 

Brian [03:22:36] I don't even see you. 

Meg [03:22:37] Yeah, really? Like, I'd. I'd say, like how many people are out there on the stand dedicating how much time of their lives when they're not with their own families and. Yeah that's and all all well not general holidays later found out they were paid, but other. 

Brian [03:22:54] Other positions. It's like you're paying your way to heaven. What is it? 

Meg [03:22:58] What a toxic idea. Paying your way to heaven. And if you don't pay. But tithing is a lot of going to heaven. What a. What is what? It's so painful. Yeah. And all. I always thought about all this. Everything has been happening in Ukraine. And I would go to awards. There is a branch. Go to this branch. Mostly Ukrainians. Some people from the embassy. So some. Some Americans. But I thought all them and they were so faithful like that branch of Mormons is so great in Ukraine and after the war. I obviously I have some very deep emotional ties there, but I'm like, if anyone goes there from the church and tells them to continue to pay their tithing and they will be blessed. That's when I lose my shit. But that's when I. That's when I create my own angry podcast and start talking crap on the church and start holding people accountable instead of telling, you know, I know I want to be like respectful and tell stories and be like, Hey, let's try and agree with each other. Or like, let's be respectful or like let's give consent to being in this organization. I want you to have all the truth. I'm very. I don't know. I feel like I'm I've made peace with the church. But if there's things that can happen where I'm like, my school will be pretty wrecked if the church makes certain mistakes in the future. And that's what I thought about with Ukraine, because they've done it to other countries. They've done it to other countries with natural disasters, with wars, with with mass killings. And they've talked about, here's what you need to do. You need to go to church and pay your tithing. Meanwhile, yeah, double down. And when it's when their whole world is shook. And it's those times where, like, I think about humanity, where I go, how dare you? How dare you talk to people who are hurting like this while you get to go back? And you have no idea what it's like even. And people I think people want to say, I understand how it was that way because I went on a mission there or I understand it's like you knew where your home was. You knew if you were in trouble, you would be taken out of that trouble. You knew if you were in financial distress, you would be taken care of. You knew if you couldn't make it home, you knew what number to call. You were okay. Yeah. No one understands that life except for those people. And I'm so tired of the church. I'm thinking they understand the monopoly on happiness and taking. 

Brian [03:25:33] Taking so much. 

Meg [03:25:35] Off that make you angry? That makes me so angry. 

Brian [03:25:39] That one makes me very angry. Yeah. You need to listen to yesterday's episode that I posted about Amanda. Okay? 

Brian [03:25:47] She had a lot of this. 

Brian [03:25:48] She grew up in St George and has lived outside of the country for the last 15 years, were working for UNICEF and the World Food Program for the UN. And she's living in Argentina right now. But she got such. When when her eldest world fell apart, she started deconstructing capitalism and everything else, and she wanted to go learn a foreign language. And so she went to Costa Rica and she's like, Oh, this is just like a beach for all of the Americans. They come here, they speak English, they sit on the beach. They want to go someplace where I have to learn another language. And so she says, lived in Ethiopia and oh, just and she's living among the poor, working for those kind of efforts. And she's got a fantastic story. She's a amazing person. So I. Yeah, so. 

Brian [03:26:42] Cool. 

Brian [03:26:43] Yeah. It's kind of a fun experience. 

Meg [03:26:45] So eye opening. It's almost impossible to go and have that experience remain in the church for sure. You you start to look at it differently and look at what the thoughts are. And it's really about stepping outside of Utah to Utah. 

Brian [03:27:02] As you know, it's interesting because her mom got them all into world travel and I interviewed. So, I mean, they've got they have three daughters. I'm going to interview all three of them for my podcast. I just think because I met that, let's see. So Amanda is the oldest. The second one, Delaney has starred in Broadway musicals. She lives in New York with her husband, who is quite cool, and Tina Turner, the musical. And he was they met when he was playing in Book of Mormon The Musical on Broadway. That's where they met. She was sitting in the front row and I saw him in that. And so that's how they're getting married in August. So I'm excited for them. 

Meg [03:27:41] That's so cool. 

Brian [03:27:42] Their youngest sister is a veterinarian and she's married to my nephew. That's how I met all of them. And I'm like, Does your mom ever regret like. Showing you the world. And they're like, no, they wanted us to know there was life outside of Cedar City. And there while it's been very difficult because all of them but the youngest has left the church, she said that part has been difficult for them. But they wanted to know. They wanted us to know there is more out here than just Utah. And I'm like, Yeah, but did she know that she wouldn't get any of you back? Because you're all just these fascinating human beings that have found your thing. And what little girl didn't hasn't been to Broadway that says, Oh, I want to be on Broadway. 

Brian [03:28:27] Yeah. 

Brian [03:28:28] And she actually did it. What little girl hasn't said, Oh, I want to travel and go live in all these different countries and speak all these languages. Well, she did it well. A little girl doesn't love animals and want to be a veterinarian. Well, she did it. So it's like, how are your daughters doing? All of these amazing things when they grew up in such a strict environment in St, in Cedar, in St George and Amanda tells us on her story, she says, I didn't have a single friend who wasn't a member of the church until I went to college. 

Meg [03:29:04] Isn't that crazy? And that's that's part of indoctrination. It's impossible to think differently. 

Brian [03:29:10] Yeah. And then two years later, she's not a member of the church. And since then, she hasn't lived in the US. 

Brian [03:29:15] Yeah. 

Meg [03:29:16] Yeah. It's so crazy. It's just. Seeing a different view and I'm just in Arizona is not crazy different people think that Mormons are. 

Brian [03:29:26] Utah. 

Meg [03:29:27] It look the crazy thing that like never Mormons here like a lot of my never Mormon friends and I have a mormon friends here but my never Mormon friend that I met here in Arizona, they think that the church is like kind of a big deal here. But I'm like, I have yet to accidently run into a mormon unless they're missionaries on my doorstep. 

Brian [03:29:48] Right. 

Meg [03:29:48] You know, like, it's it's so different. And I'm like, usual and the northern. 

Brian [03:29:52] You don't believe me? Yeah, I'm. 

Meg [03:29:55] Different. 

Brian [03:29:56] Count the different churches. 

Brian [03:29:57] And the number of gas stations. 

Brian [03:29:59] Seriously. 

Meg [03:30:01] Seriously, it's it's so much and really there I, we do live in Gilbert and so we have that Gilbert Temple. Yeah, and that's pretty close by. But other than that, like, I don't see more of them walking around. I don't even know, like, what building would be like. I wouldn't be anywhere close. I don't know. I don't know how close it is. I know. 

Brian [03:30:19] Yeah, that's a great idea. I know. Relation. Yeah, we're trying to. 

Meg [03:30:23] We're trying to make our way over to the East Coast. That's where we really want to live. 

Brian [03:30:27] And we're like, Oh. 

Meg [03:30:29] I think we have some crazy ideas or know what we're doing. My my husband applied for the State Department and he's on that. He has this interview date for his oral assessment. So we've gone through like the assessment and all the backgrounds. And so he's he's still deciding what he wants to like cause he has a another job, obviously, that just kind of wants to pursue. So that would move us out of the country for four years. But we would first spend time in Virginia for six months for training in D.C. and so that's kind of like made us think about the East Coast cause we really love the East Coast. But then I have a few job opportunities that are along the East Coast as well. And so we've kind of thought like we'll go, we'll both get remote jobs, be in Virginia, be on the East Coast and then keep working, and then he'll have his name on the roster of the State Department. And if he chooses not to do it, then it's like, Cool, we're ready over here where we want to be. If he chooses to go with it, then we're already there. Then we can. 

Brian [03:31:28] Also get. 

Meg [03:31:29] To pursue that. So I can call for his. I don't think we would have been able to really look at for sure. 

Brian [03:31:36] We have my friend during conference. 

Brian [03:31:39] Yeah. 

Brian [03:31:40] He worked for the CIA. 

Brian [03:31:42] That's so cool. Yeah, I love that. 

Meg [03:31:44] My my sister in law, the one who put my sister, began her career and hasn't had any children. One who I. I just look up to like crazy. She's incredible. She works for the State Department, and her. Her job is so cool. I, I know she works so hard, and there's a lot of long, hard. 

Brian [03:32:01] Hours. 

Meg [03:32:02] And there's a lot of really difficult things she has to deal with. But I think you are I think she just kicks ass. 

Brian [03:32:09] I think it's so cool. That's pretty awesome. 

Meg [03:32:11] I love being able to to watch her career because it's it's not just like, oh, I work in some business, which is great for other women, but it's just like work in the State Department and work in D.C. opportunities. It's really cool. Yeah. 

Brian [03:32:26] DC We love Virginia. We love Virginia. I went to grad school out there. 

Meg [03:32:30] So where do you go? UVA That's so cool. My my dream place is Charlottesville, and. 

Brian [03:32:36] Charlottesville is amazing. 

Meg [03:32:38] Oh, it's. It's a dream over there. It is so pretty. 

Brian [03:32:41] What took you to Charlottesville? 

Meg [03:32:43] Um, I've been. I think I've been near Charlottesville before. My dad served his mission in Virginia. Nice. I love it. I served in Virginia. So I've been back there to go visit his mission treated. I don't know, all the cities I went to. I just remember really liking it. And then this past year we went out to the Mason sister out there and went to Charlottesville and we did a whole wine tour. 

Brian [03:33:09] And. 

Brian [03:33:10] Gorgeous. 

Brian [03:33:10] Country. 

Brian [03:33:11] It was Mr. Jefferson's country. 

Brian [03:33:13] Yeah, that's my. 

Meg [03:33:14] Yeah, I went to Monticello. Oh, yeah. That was a wonderful experience. And all the vineyards everywhere and the gorgeous. 

Brian [03:33:23] Properties and the. 

Brian [03:33:24] Yes. 

Meg [03:33:25] It's it's such a cool place. I and also I just really want able to hop on a train and go somewhere else. I, I love the opportunity. Like my, my, my favorite things are when I'm lost. I love to be lost. I, I don't really like to be comfortable, which is hard because that's where friends come into play. Once you're comfortable, you've created friendships. And then I kind. 

Brian [03:33:46] Of want to get up and go. 

Brian [03:33:46] Getting lost with a friend. 

Brian [03:33:48] Yeah, right. Or hop. 

Brian [03:33:49] An Amtrak. Which. Where do you want to go? I don't. 

Brian [03:33:52] Know. Let's just. 

Meg [03:33:53] Go. That was like when my favorite first while being overseas, when I was when I was 19, I just got with a bunch of girls and we talked together and then we just got to go to different countries, got to make crazy decisions. And it was so fun that that was the first time I had alcohol. It was. 

Brian [03:34:09] An accident. Um, but I. 

Meg [03:34:13] My roommate and I got completely sloshed because we were so naive. It was not good decisions on our part. But we would walk home from school where we would teach and get a hot chocolate. We're like super cold and Ukraine and we're that in winter, winter in spring. And we go and get out from this place. And it's Ukraine. Like no one speaks English. And we were teaching English to kids, but no one speaks English so we can talk all day. No one knows what we're saying. And so we went to this place that we went every single day to get a hot chocolate. And this person's like, Oh, Americans were like this one sided, but this person could talk. And we're like, Oh, it's so nice to meet you. My bag. This is my roommate. And now like, oh, like this, we're going to talk about me like, oh, I'm red pepper. The red pepper. We're like, oh, but in our house all that, okay. Like just immediately decided like, oh, are you thinking that I'm going to fuck you. 

Brian [03:35:05] So and like, so little? Yeah. 

Meg [03:35:08] So of course we had the large hot chocolate and we had to put the red pepper in it. And so we get on the bus to go home. And we had finished the. Chocolate Byron on. I would like spicier. Right. 

Brian [03:35:20] Little burning red pepper. Sure. 

Meg [03:35:21] Yeah. And I was like, checks out makes sense. But then I don't know how I got home. I like we work movies. Ah. So then we found out it was Red Pepper Whiskey and it was. 

Brian [03:35:32] Nice and. 

Meg [03:35:33] Well and people were like, How did you not know? Hot chocolate in Ukraine is completely different. There's like, literally like melted chocolate is so thick. And so when they put half of the cup of whiskey, it just kind of tastes like spicy hot chocolate, right? If you took a shot of whiskey, you know, it's like you can barely choke that down, especially as a first timer. Right. But it just tasted rich and spicy and it was so great. 

Brian [03:35:57] And the third or fourth sip, I just didn't give a shit. 

Brian [03:36:01] Oh, we were gone. 

Meg [03:36:03] We were gone. Especially on top of that. We wouldn't eat dinner until we got home. So we were drinking on an empty stomach, too. And she was so cute. She actually this is the greatest story. She answered, jumped to an after, but she was preparing to go on a mission at the time. And she actually got Ann Dowd in Ukraine and took her and I went out in Ukraine. Yeah. And did all in Russian. Incredible. Like I'm so proud of her for doing that. So even at the church, I'm like, I'm like super cool. And so she, I felt so bad for her because I was like, I'm sorry. I hope this doesn't make you feel bad. We didn't know and we just laughed about it. And we, we actually ended up staying up and just chatting and we knew we were drunk and we, we just kind of and the next morning I woke up and we were just done and our host mom was like, What happened to. 

Brian [03:36:51] The whole scheme for that? And do you like don't ask. 

Meg [03:36:55] Don't ask like we we look like trash. And I say because it was huge. That was like, oh, a ton of whiskey still. Even now I'm like that would still squash me and that yeah, that was an experience. But jumping to her this was one of the wonderful you forward moments of being ex-Mormon. She's one of my dearest friends. She was my roommate in Ukraine and we have just always remained so close. And we this is after I moved to Arizona. I left the church and I didn't say anything to her because I was so scared. She's like, when my best friend, she had been on her mission, she had come back for a mission already and dating a guy. And, and we were coming a few time. We were meeting for lunch and I decided, like me for not telling her I was wearing short sleeved shirts like you couldn't tell I was wearing garments or anything. And I was like, I just can't tell her. Like, I, I, I'm not ready for rejection on my best. Yeah. So we're, we're having lunch and we're just sitting and talking, and she's, she's like, yeah. I just like, I haven't really been to church lately and like, kind. 

Brian [03:37:58] Of like. 

Brian [03:37:58] She brought it up. 

Meg [03:37:59] You brought it up. And I was. 

Brian [03:38:01] Like. 

Meg [03:38:02] I haven't been lately. She's like. You've been listening. 

Brian [03:38:08] To morning stories and I'm like, Oh, and you're. 

Meg [03:38:12] Like, What is there? And so we had this lunch both going into I don't want to tell the other person because we were so scared. 

Brian [03:38:21] Right. And respecting each other so much. Right. I couldn't afford to lose that. 

Meg [03:38:26] Not respecting our space. And what you have to learn, they're leaving. And we I just I remember we both just, like, got teary eyed and like, are you leaving the church? She's like, Yeah, I think of leaving. And I'm like, I left like, I'm I'm out and I haven't really been public about it. And it was still it is one of the greatest experiences of my life because not only did I have my friend who understood me, but we were in the exact same place. So we were in like a new place of refuge. It was not only she, my friend, to understand me. We understand where we're going. Yeah. And those are. Man, that was such a cool experience. I heard a few of those happening to some people of not knowing who's been out and then you're like, Oh, you're out of the church. Yeah. And it's like the course. 

Brian [03:39:14] Happened with my friend from grad school. His wife and my wife are great friends and but they haven't talked to each other for a long time. And we kind of found out on accident that we were both out of the church. And when we first found out, he wasn't quite out. But I could tell there was something different about him because when he was in, he was in, you know, and he was like, well, you know, and he was talking about it. But that only lasted like another month or two. And they're like, Yeah, we're done. And she'd been out for like eight years, but she hadn't told anybody, including him she was going and just. 

Brian [03:39:48] The. 

Meg [03:39:49] Mentally out physically. 

Brian [03:39:51] And. 

Brian [03:39:51] Yeah, she had kids and she didn't want it to affect them. All of them have been out now, you know. But for eight years she was like going to church and doing all that stuff, but she just couldn't. And her bishop couldn't handle it because. He brought her in for a temple recommend interview and she's like, I don't don't need that. Don't want one. 

Brian [03:40:12] Yeah. 

Brian [03:40:13] And he's like. And he could not process the fact that here was a person clearly worthy of the temple, living all of the guidelines. And you just don't want it. All I need do is ask a couple of questions and I'll give it to you. You don't have to go if you don't want. She's like, I don't want it. And he could not process the fact that she was the only time you don't give a temple recommend is when I don't give it because you're not worthy. I've never once offered it to someone and have them say No, I don't want it. I don't need that. That's not that's not for me. 

Meg [03:40:45] Oh, and not having it be a part of how you identify yourself to be like, oh, I'm like fully secure in my self knowing I don't need this. And people who usually don't have one feel bad about them, but they feel like they need. 

Brian [03:40:57] Something to be healed and. 

Brian [03:40:58] Withholding it from you. But you don't want one. I don't get. I don't want you. What do you mean? I mean he couldn't lot process that. He didn't didn't get that. Yeah. It's like it's free. It doesn't even have a cost. 

Meg [03:41:09] It's like that's when you really start realizing how when you're going through a faith process, how much you're out, and when you realize you can answer any of those questions. 

Brian [03:41:16] Right? 

Meg [03:41:18] Especially because. 

Brian [03:41:18] It's like I do, I don't only. 

Brian [03:41:20] Go I went through and looked at each one and I'm like, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope. Why did they ask that four times? 

Brian [03:41:26] Yeah. 

Meg [03:41:28] Yeah. Like I couldn't answer any of them correctly. And and there was like, there's such a time and a space process, and I'll do to do the three things like, Oh, I can be. I cannot believe in a lot of things and still believe in present day. And I don't have the all the temple. I don't have to have a calling. I have wear garments. I don't have to do it like this. But I will still go to church every Sunday and be a part of the culture and still take in that religious aspect. Right. Because I still wanted to hold on to God. I still wanted to hold on to the Atonement and all of that and part it. But so much as is wrapped in with Joseph Smith and the restoration that it's like they are one thing but you can't pull it apart and you're if you're uncomfortable with some of it, you're uncomfortable with all of it, especially when you go through deconstruction. And there was a time where I was like, I was so concerned, so, so nervous that I couldn't be there for my brother's wedding. My brothers are there still. They are not dating anyone. Two of them who are not married are not dating anyone. And I knew, okay, they're going to do it. Want to get married? I have to hold the temple recommend for whenever they find out and whenever they go get married. Because I was so concerned with that day being about me and I was like, if I stand outside that temple, my family, my family, her husband, family, whatever, it's going to be about me, how I cannot be in the temple, how I ruin the day, how every family member should have been in there. And this is also kind of before I didn't know where my brother and sister in law were leaving the church. They had just gotten married and I was so, so scared that I was going to ruin my family's day because I couldn't be in the temple. And so I was going to mental gymnastics. I'm like, I'm going to get to Richmond. And my husband's like, you know, you can buy him off of off the Internet, right? And I was like, No, you can't. He's like, Yeah, people. Yeah. 

Brian [03:43:18] He's like, I knew that when I. 

Meg [03:43:20] Yeah, well you can go on in my. But now I think people are like more weird about it. Like if you've never been to church and then you grow up and be like highly recommend. 

Brian [03:43:27] You know, I kind of get to know and know. 

Meg [03:43:30] That something like go to be like I can't be if my brothers decide to get married in a temple, I cannot be in their wedding. And that was kind of a process I had to let go. 

Brian [03:43:41] That's the kind of hostile environment the church has created to keep you in. That's that's a that's a hostage they're taking. One of my other interviews that I I think it's been out like a week or so now, her truth be told is, is the only name she goes by. She doesn't want to give her name out yet. She's got an Instagram account called Truth Be Told. But she said one of the things I didn't know about is when you leave the church, they get to keep your family. 

Meg [03:44:11] Yeah. Oh, gosh. But I hate that sentence. 

Brian [03:44:16] Yeah. Right. That's so. It's too true. 

Brian [03:44:19] Yeah. 

Brian [03:44:19] They didn't leave the church, but we get your family. It's like, wow, that's not fair. It's my family. 

Meg [03:44:25] Yeah. 

Brian [03:44:26] What do you even do with it for? Nope. I'm just keeping it. We're not going to do anything with them. We're just going to keep them. Yeah. 

Meg [03:44:33] Oh, I hate that. 

Brian [03:44:35] Sorry. And a trigger. Know what it. 

Brian [03:44:37] Is for me, too. 

Meg [03:44:38] Well, then I really think I've ended up pretty lucky. And I know I'm grateful for my family for putting in the work. And I'm grateful for my brother for just accepting me as I am. But it's extended. Family has changed. It's changed a lot. And I, I, I don't. I don't know if it's just a mormon pushing. Maybe it's my family. I don't know. We grew up very close as extended families, both on my mom and my dad's side. And I have a pretty small family as what Mormons would say. My dad has three siblings, my mom has one and kind of a smaller family and other people have ten siblings or whatever. And so I had like my cousins and I were super close and it's really hard thing their opinion changes me, especially because I'm one of the oldest and that sucks. And it's also really sucky seeing how much I support them. So like I like graduation gifts or birthday phone calls or making sure that they know that I'm thinking of them. And there's it's not talked about me. There's. There's not. My mom has tried to be so sensitive, but she's been really special and made me smile and go like and I love. I can tell her how it affects me that people don't want to be around me anymore. And she understands that he's got to let them go like they are who they are, and they're going to do what they're going to do. And you can't let that hurt you. 

Brian [03:46:11] She sees that. 

Meg [03:46:13] Yeah, I love her advice on that. But also at the same time, it's like these people have been there my whole life. Yeah, they've been there. And just because this one change is happening, it's like the rest. The mags matter. 

Brian [03:46:26] That's where love ends. 

Brian [03:46:28] Yeah, right there. 

Meg [03:46:29] Yeah, yeah. It's like full circle. We've made a full circle back to. You got to. You got to just know for yourself and go back to my homie on the bike on your piece. 

Brian [03:46:42] Let them be wrong. 

Meg [03:46:44] You can't. You can't please everyone. And I'm leaving. Letting that go. Not of letting go. The idea of you have to please people. Dang. What a beautiful thing. I guess some people are just born with that and I'm like that. They should. They should go. 

Brian [03:47:02] They have to work hard. They should have to work so hard. 

Brian [03:47:06] Like my brother. 

Meg [03:47:06] He's just like you spoke to him. And I'm like, I feel like I got all of the anxious genes with people pleasing you got none of them. We should have been able to split them evenly. Yeah. And then work through it. 

Brian [03:47:18] Yeah. 

Meg [03:47:19] You've been a great example. Yeah. Being being someone who is just then, you know, I do feel better in Arizona and Utah. I feel like I'm so authentically myself. Even people come out here like my family comes out here. 

Brian [03:47:33] I'm like, Well, it's all right. 

Meg [03:47:34] Yeah, this is my safe place that you are coming to. And then when I go to Utah and it could be all the billboards, it could be all the temples, it could be all the churches, it could be everything. But I feel very smothered, very. It's really hard, especially knowing that we get a of word. But the gossip is super great about us. And then they'll be upset about the Christmas. 

Brian [03:47:59] Family stuff, reward stuff. 

Meg [03:48:00] Family weird stuff is like it's like you can talk about me or whatever. We don't have to be friends, but family. It family's always connected. Like, for example, there was a time in my family, this was a little over a year ago where someone in my family. Had told my brothers to stay away from me because I was going to tell one of my brothers to stay away from me cause I was going to be done this past summer. I was going to be really difficult for them to fight and ex-Mormon I'm going to. I'm going to hurt them spiritually. And that was really hard for me and that was really hard for Mason to see how much that hurt me because my brothers and I have a great relationship and it really hurt me to see that someone would want to try and get in the middle of that. And it was none of their business. And the person who also said this about me to my brother did not have a single conversation with me about what I believe, too. It wasn't like an argument or anything. It was completely out of the blue as even I think really still until today has really affected some relationships and. That's hard because when you go, I don't want to come to Christmas. 

Brian [03:49:11] Right? 

Meg [03:49:12] I don't want to. Especially living in Arizona, where most families live in Utah. We're the ones that travel up. Right. And people get upset when we don't come. And it's like. And that's just one instance and. 

Brian [03:49:23] Multiple if you live on the East Coast and accept it a little more because it's so far. 

Meg [03:49:27] Kind of on. All right. That's definitely a pro. And it's so sad because we really want to have relationships with these people. But it's like you have proven to me. That you think of. You think pretty poorly of me. And and also being so accepting of a story that you have not asked the other side. Yeah. That's also very disappointing of no one has asked us a single question of people who don't want to be alive. 

Brian [03:49:56] Already made the stories in their head. But how a story. So that's how it makes sense. This is the reason. Yeah. Like Jackson said in his story. So I appreciate that. It's hard for my family and I appreciate that they're trying really hard. Yeah, but at some point, I. I know it still makes them uncomfortable. And at some point, I'm going to just choose to be around people that are comfortable. 

Brian [03:50:21] I'm comfortable. 

Brian [03:50:21] With it. I'm comfortable with. 

Brian [03:50:23] Exactly. How do you make that point? 

Brian [03:50:25] Even to family or not? At some point it's like, you know what, I don't want to be know that I'm going to be make you uncomfortable just by being in the room. I don't want to be. 

Brian [03:50:32] There just by. 

Meg [03:50:32] Being present. Absolutely. And that's how I feel when I walk into a room. Now, being in a super Mormon family, especially not necessarily like my immediate family, but things have gotten better. But it's like I think about extended family and I just like, Oh, I feel like there's a spotlight on me. I feel like there's going to be. Oh, there was well, it was it was a few Christmases ago. I can't remember how many people knew we were pushing or out, but this person was extremely, extremely Republican, and somehow they found out that we voted for Biden, which is so not I mean, that election alone was a disaster as itself. And but this was such a big deal. And at the Christmas party, he came up to me and he said he said thing I really hurt my finger when I walked in the door like like stand in the door, I was like, oh, I'm so sorry. I mean, I said he's like, no, you just flipped me off. He said, Next time you going to see my dick for voting for Biden. 

Brian [03:51:32] At Christmas, Christmas. And I am like, this is like a grown man. 

Brian [03:51:41] No, it isn't. No, no. 

Brian [03:51:43] Oh. 

Meg [03:51:44] But I could not. But I was like, I'm not even gonna find this offensive, because I think you just look absolutely ridiculous. 

Brian [03:51:50] Seriously, what? 

Meg [03:51:53] And then the crazy thing. Everyone looked around me and laughed. No one stood up for me. And I. I honestly didn't really want to make it a thing. I didn't want to make it an argument. And so I kind of just got a single because of being put on the spot in that situation. Wasn't I didn't want the attention, but I was also kind of like. 

Brian [03:52:10] So is anybody going to. 

Meg [03:52:12] There was plenty of. 

Brian [03:52:13] People and not really nobody no. 

Meg [03:52:15] One's concerned that you said I'm going to shows jumped me. This is. 

Brian [03:52:19] Concerning. Yeah that was wild really. Well, and and since leaving the. 

Brian [03:52:24] Course, you've changed your whole political view now. Well, I'm on the train now. 

Brian [03:52:30] I seriously. 

Meg [03:52:31] Well, and that was the funny part they really know. So they kind of associate like, oh, we've gone down the dark path and gone full leftist now and it's like we were kind of like before communist. 

Brian [03:52:40] You're a communist. 

Brian [03:52:41] Now? Yeah. Socialist. Yeah. Yeah, that was. 

Meg [03:52:45] And that that family too who said. But we've heard quite the gossip from them from, from leaving and it was really sad because I actually really liked them. 

Brian [03:52:56] Yeah. 

Brian [03:52:56] And I think it's they have to make a story up in their head. 

Brian [03:52:59] How so? 

Brian [03:53:00] Beautiful and lovely and smart and as dedicated as you decide that this is all bullshit. Yeah, well, I'm glad you asked. 

Brian [03:53:11] Because I love you. Tell you what you know. What do you want to ask me? Why I love it was a nobody on. 

Brian [03:53:17] The sarcasm and I'll tell you. 

Meg [03:53:18] Yeah. Oh, like I went 20 years without any alcohol or anything or any partying. I could live without that. That's not what this was. This was. 

Brian [03:53:28] And lazy. I've done more studying in the past two years. I've done it the ten years before it. 

Meg [03:53:33] Oh, and when I was in the church, I was incredibly heavy in the church like I was. I was a temple goer. 

Brian [03:53:39] I was for family history and. 

Meg [03:53:41] Absolutely, absolutely. And I had extremely Mormon family is very Mormon friends. 

Brian [03:53:46] So what in the. 

Brian [03:53:47] World already do they have to come up with to balance that that you left? It's not enough to just say, oh. Her husband put a bad thought. No, because he's a great guy, too. We know him, too. Yeah, it's not well. Satan has finally got to her. Or they need to come up with something. Or they can't sleep at night. Or else they have to face the same reality, which they're not going to do. 

Brian [03:54:11] Yeah. 

Meg [03:54:12] You know, I think the good story I really think that the best story that I but I kind of heard but also I, I can see people saying to I really stuck with LGBTQ stuff before on just the church on accepting and I was always really big into reading LGBTQ books as well. I'm really big about sharing books on what I read on social media, and I post it when I read Love. Simon loves that book. Read that book in like 2017, I think. And when I posted that, I was so very in the church, I had a calling at that point in the church, and I still remember, like Paul Mason decided to be like, Are you okay with your wife reading this book? He's like, Well, and I will control my wife two and three. We wrote it together. 

Brian [03:54:57] God try to tell her what she should read and should try to tell you. I'll stand here and watch you go. 

Meg [03:55:02] Yeah. So I think people knew. People knew I was very for LGBTQ before I left the church. And so I think maybe that like the story that I kind of heard is like she had so much empathy for LGBTQ that she could no longer be a part of organization that wouldn't let them get married. The couple, which is maybe like 1%. Yeah. Of why I it was very big and I'm still very, very active in the church treating them disrespectfully. I'm very I will stand up and I will voice my opinion in that. But it's like a no, I was actually lied to about like everything. Yeah. I was like, you. 

Brian [03:55:37] Know, that was a big part for me because like I mentioned the US versus them. And then when I realized that that them are just wonderful, lovely people, that was like, So why do you insist on buying muskets and arming yourselves to defend them? They're not attacking you. They are doing nothing to you. They just want you to leave them alone. And you sit there and throw rocks and say, you need to defend yourself. Defend yourself. 

Brian [03:56:06] Against what? 

Brian [03:56:08] I get it. The family is sacred, and only your version of what constitutes family is the only thing that matters. But why can't we just love them for who they are and just let them do their thing? I mean, one of my wife's big things was. I don't know if you know. Fantastic, beautiful human being love. Well, his son is gay. He's in college a couple of years, and he comes out to his parents. They're very quiet about it. Very respectful. He's very respectful about it. He marries his husband. The family goes out there. They celebrate him. They you know, all of that. But it's pretty quiet back here. Nobody really knows. Again, an amazing human being, just beautiful person. Just loved the kid to death. And Gabby kind of fall off the cliff moment was. If God has a problem with, he and I are going to fight. Because I don't like that. God. 

Brian [03:57:06] Yeah. 

Brian [03:57:07] Because there is absolutely nothing wrong with this kid. And you've made his life miserable. 

Meg [03:57:11] Miserable? Absolutely. 

Brian [03:57:14] And putting up all your fences and boundaries and shoulds and guilts and everything else. And I can't imagine all the crap that he's gone through and the mental gymnastics and I'm not good enough and and fuck you for not just loving him for being this amazing person and not just saying that. And that was kind of her feel is like, that's not right. I don't care what if that's the way this God believes them. I want nothing to do with. 

Meg [03:57:39] Absolutely. That's that's that's the end of it all really is like, man, I don't want I don't want that life. I don't want to follow that person and know when my my girlfriend, who's kind of going through this phase process right now, she she called me the other day and she was just really upset. She realized she's like, if I keep going on this path, what does that mean for my child and my husband? Like, am I going to be with them forever? Am I? If I. What am I? What's. What do I go from here? Like, how did you find peace with that? And. I said, Do you really want to follow someone who wouldn't let you be with your family out of your own morals? Yeah. Yeah. It makes sense if you're off killing people for making really poor choices. And it had to be extremely, extremely poor choices. Right. They said that if you stayed in the church and your child left. Would you even as a parent say, I don't want you to be with me in heaven, but you love your child more than anything. Like, absolutely. Unlike in the church, you're taught that God loves you more than a parent would and more than we can ever feel and describe. What kind of God would keep their families separated? Yeah. And by out of their own. Their own moral system. Right. Because you're so at war with yourself out of fear versus what you really believe and what is right. And it's it's so toxic on how the church controls that, because there's so many people who stay in who go, I got to be with my. 

Brian [03:59:18] Family and. 

Brian [03:59:19] My family. I can't put the on. 

Brian [03:59:21] Yeah. 

Meg [03:59:22] When really it's like if, if God's holding my family hostage like that, I don't want to follow someone who is okay with that. Yeah. You know, and that's how I felt LGBTQ as well as like if we're going to withhold them from being in heaven because they married someone they love and respect and feel safe with, that's not something I want to be around any way. 

Brian [03:59:43] Send me wherever they're going because. 

Brian [03:59:45] Yeah, exactly. 

Meg [03:59:47] Exactly. It's like I said, we're going into heaven one day and we're going to bring we're going to be like, I'm with group tours that you get, you know, the first day of campus I college and it's like, all right here's here's this. Oh, another mountains where the Mormons are. They think they're the only ones up here. But it's okay. Just leave them be. 

Brian [04:00:03] Right, right. 

Meg [04:00:05] You know. 

Brian [04:00:06] Well, I thought that that was going to. That was a big problem for me because I'm like, okay. So I can't follow the prophet. Don't believe in the policies. So much whitewashed history. What about Jesus? What about God? What about. 

Meg [04:00:24] That's a whole other. 

Brian [04:00:25] Thing after lockdown. 

Brian [04:00:27] Right. So in dealing with that, I'm like, okay, what if this life is just it? What if that. 

Brian [04:00:34] Is not a doozy? 

Brian [04:00:35] But I found this to my surprise. I am so much more comfortable. With that. With the end being just the end, I'm so much more comfortable with that than I am with all of the conditions you put on everything after that? 

Meg [04:00:51] Yeah. I'd rather live this life. 

Brian [04:00:53] I want to live in peace. Yeah, I. 

Brian [04:00:56] Thought I would be. How do you go to sleep at night? I'm afraid to not check my blind spot on every. I mean, I'm deathly afraid of. I don't care. It doesn't matter. It's beautiful. Yeah. We're all going to die. And that'll be the end and. Okay. Yeah, it is what it is. You know, I am shocked at how much of that just went away. And I thought that would be the hardest thing to overcome is like, so this is it and all this stuff doesn't matter. Your grandparents that died when you were a kid, you'll never see them again because they're, you know, whatever. I'm okay. Yeah, that's. 

Meg [04:01:29] You know, I really opened myself up to that as well as I've become more agnostic, I kind of transition more into Christian things after I left the church. But then. Deconstructing Christianity, something different to. 

Brian [04:01:42] Write. 

Meg [04:01:43] And kind of being like, why do why do I need a God to forgive when I should be held accountable for being forgiven? You know, I had that whole process of. When I've made mistakes, I have to atone for my sins. Right. I like. I need to be responsible for those mistakes. I don't think someone had to die in order for that to happen. I think I need to be. I don't know. And also, I just the atonement was always really scary to me as a kid. I really that was a really, really terrifying thing for me. So I never held onto his home. Like a lot of people do, I was kind of went a different route with forgiveness anyway. But when I started looking at like, what if this is it? What is this? And I don't know, I really I think there is still something really. And you not believe in something more. But that's not how I lead my life. But one of my favorite all time books, what I read in high school was Fall in Our Stars was like typical. 

Brian [04:02:40] Typical, you know? Sure. I love him. 

Meg [04:02:43] I love John Green. And one of my favorite, it was this happens it like in the beginning, the book and the end of the book and they ask, oh, gosh, I just lost his name. I got this. They ask us this in the circle when they're at their right, their support group. I said, What are you scared of? He says, I'm scared of oblivion. I'm scared that no one will know who I am. I'm scared that I won't make a mark on this world. And then Hazel stands up. She goes, Oblivion is inevitable. And years from now, no. Remember us or Cleopatra or all these important people. And you need to be able to live with that. And I read that when I was in high school to be like, oh, my gosh, to be like that stubborn with with life and after life. Right. And then at the very end of the book, when he's dying, sorry if anyone's listening to this. And I said. 

Brian [04:03:34] Oh, sweetheart. 

Meg [04:03:35] Spoiler alert, he dies. Horrible, horrible ending. And I that is one of my favorite books. And I've read the book so many times. I watched it maybe more times that I will not watch that insane because it is one of the saddest things I've ever seen. But that quote has stayed with me. On how he has viewed oblivion and how we view it himself and that she gets mad at him at this point when they're doing like the practice eulogy, when he's still alive and she goes, she tells them, You made a mark on me. You made a mark on us. You may not be remembered in history. You may not be remembered by the world after this, but you yourself made a mark on how you decided to live your life and that the ones around you were affected. And it's so funny because I, as a teenager, just kind of took and I'm like, oh, I love that. I love how they can make a mark on each other and they can make peace with that. And now I use that entirely like, almost like guy in my life. I'm like, if this, if this is it and I'm okay saying that, I'm okay saying if this is it right, I hope it's not right. I really hope there's something more. But if this is it, I can't fear oblivion. I can't fear the mark that I make. I can't fear. 

Brian [04:04:51] You can't live in fear. 

Meg [04:04:52] Can't remember. You can't. You can't live in fear. And you can focus on who to who, not what. But who do I want to make an impression on? Who don't like? Who do I want to spend my life with? And who do I honor and respect and make them feel even more honored and respected? Right. Like my spouse, I want to love him until the very last minute because he deserves it. I want to love my friends. I want to I want to be there for people who have been there for me. And sometimes people can freak out and go, Well, then what else? What else? 

Brian [04:05:25] Of them will worry. 

Brian [04:05:26] About doing it there. 

Meg [04:05:28] And then it's like one of the greatest quotes that I've heard from a therapist is you don't have to worry about later. You can just focus on right now like this, this moment right now you can just focus on this. You don't have to focus on 5 minutes or not. You have to focus on a year from now. You have to focus on the end of your life. Right? Focus right now. And that's really all you have to do because this is where you are presently at. 

Brian [04:05:51] And this is all you're going to get ever is this moment. 

Meg [04:05:54] This is it. This is art. And it's. 

Brian [04:05:56] Really pushed. 

Meg [04:05:56] Me to enjoy life more for the moment rather than constantly planning. And that's also that's going back to your one of your very first questions in like, how have I changed my patterns or my habits? And focusing on the here and now has been a constant thing that I have to remember because we're so focused on the afterlife. What's more, what else is out there? How am I going to work towards that? How am I going to get that? How am I going to earn that? But focusing on the here and now, it's like I don't have to worry about when I'm going to do this or what's going to happen in five years. Now, when people talk about your five year plan, it's a great thing to have plans. But also five years ago, I did not think I'd be right here. 

Brian [04:06:35] So what happened? 

Brian [04:06:37] Just the being here years ago. Exactly how do you focus on that? How do you get that mindfulness practice? How do you get stay in the here and now? More often when you find yourself worried so much about all that, you're like, Oh, no, it's just. What do you do? 

Meg [04:06:52] I think. I think. What do you really want? What do you want? And some people like about the human experience is it's different for everybody. My my want right now is to just be with my husband and be with great people and travel and have jobs that love us and we love them. But our our life is focused on each other and our experiences. And I love I love the classroom. The classroom took so much of my time and energy, and I realized I'm like, this is not what I want. I do not want so much time and energy being put into my job. I want this time energy being put into my relationships with my spouse, with my best friends, with some of my family. This is what I want. And making that change is terrifying. I don't have a job lined up. I have some great interviews. I'm like really from my fingers on them, but I'm like, I feel so much better being active and what I'm what I want rather than what I'm supposed to want. And rather just waking up every day and going, This is what you're supposed to do. This the Groundhog Day effect of just just keep going to keep on. And then you got to really decide, what do you want? Like, what makes your heart happy? What makes you sort of like. I love traveling with my spouse and I love learning and not deciding on anything, not making any choices for sure. Because I would have said for sure, I'm going to name a church. That's not happened for sure. I'm going to be a mom. I don't know if I am for sure. I'm going to stay in the classroom. I left it. I'm done for sure. I'm going to stay in the United States. We've been looking at the UK like we we don't know anything and that's okay and that's okay and that's man training. They do believe that be like it's okay to not know. It's a beautiful thing to not know because then you are so interested in information and learning and so more about like I've learned so much about myself and about the world just in these past few years, I especially about the church. But while I was traveling and my husband, I, we did a service project, some of our best friends in Dominican Republic for a few months. And just these experiences like that's how I thrive as that whole someone else. So I'm not genocides, being a mother, nurturing children, someone else will thrive in the classroom, right? Someone else can do that. But I think it's really stop asking yourself, what are you supposed to be doing and what do you want to do? And I could not believe how different those answers are because I think what's supposed to I'm supposed to be closer to family, like distance wise. I'm supposed to be in the classroom. I'm supposed to. I'm supposed to be shaping tomorrow's minds. Right. And I believe in that. I believe in family. I believe in being close to your family. But I got big ideas. And if I don't live them, I'll be very sad and very depressed. 

Brian [04:09:51] And and you feel comfortable in the knowledge that if in a year from now or two years from now, it's not working out, what do you do? I don't know. I will do what's best for me at that point. I'll figure it out that I'm not going to get it now. I can't see that now. 

Brian [04:10:02] So yeah. 

Meg [04:10:03] I don't know what life is going to look like. I don't know where I'm going to be. I don't know what's. I have no idea what opportunities are going to present themselves to me in the next few years. Yeah, but living in the now and I think that's how people can really decide with face reconstruction now is like, don't worry about afterlife, don't worry about what people are going to think of you because those are all futuristic feelings or thoughts. What is going to happen? How are they going to think of me? Where am I going to go? Sit right here. Right now. What are you what are you what is what's going on in your head? What are you telling yourself? Is there is there a yellow light happening? Like what is happening? I need to slow down. There's something happening or something that I'm doing that doesn't feel right. And that is because that's intuition. Beautiful intuition. 

Brian [04:10:52] One of the quotes that's helped me lately is when I find myself saying, Yeah, but you can't provide for your family doing that. You can't retire off of that. You can't. One of the favorite responses is like, You don't know that. You don't know. You don't know if that's the case until you try it, you don't even know. So first of all, that that's not what it's about. First of all, it's not even about any of that. But second of all, you don't know that. Yeah. I mean, J.K. Rowling couldn't say, well, you know, that that's that's not going to provide for me and my family. It's just a story. It's just. 

Brian [04:11:21] And, of course, I want to try to big. 

Meg [04:11:23] Money that it wouldn't have happened. 

Brian [04:11:24] Four. 

Brian [04:11:24] Seven times they turned her down. Nope, nope, nope. No. 27 rejections she's got for that book. For that book. 

Meg [04:11:30] Yeah. And look at how I as a teacher, I praised Harry Potter like a pastor preaches the Bible. I am like the creativity and the belief in herself that she ended up sharing with the world. Right. Like Harry Potter changed lives with kids for sure. How it taught them to love, to read and love a fantasy world that they are not involved in. But also just her perseverance. Like I, I, I love J.K. Rowling, love Harry Potter. But it's you just never know where life is going to take you. And you don't know what's going to happen either. You just don't know. And when I finally started listening to myself on what feels wrong, what feels right, what do I want to be on? And I realized almost everything I'm doing right now is because I'm supposed to, not because I want to. And. I think as soon as people ask themselves that not even just religious purposes, but I think that's how you find true purpose in your life and how you find true happiness, too, because. Like we said, like the churches have a lot going on. Happiness and the way they teach happiness. Totally works for some people. Some people thrive with kids in a family and a community will. They'll stay for years in a religion where they are very involved. And some people thrive like that all over the world. But I didn't struggle so bad and I felt like my opinions didn't matter. It's like once you realize your opinions do matter, no matter what is. 

Brian [04:13:10] You first find out. I have them first. 

Brian [04:13:12] Yeah. 

Meg [04:13:13] Yeah. Really? Seriously, it's just soul searching. Like I said, I'm still discovering beliefs. I'm still figuring. 

Brian [04:13:21] Out. And hopefully we will be taught. 

Brian [04:13:23] From now. 

Brian [04:13:24] Right? 

Meg [04:13:24] Exactly. That's the beauty that really is like, be sure of nothing. Be sure of nothing. And that is what pushes you to learn. Cause how many times have I been sure about something? And it has completely ended up something else. And I'm so glad that took me there. So glad I am where I'm at today because. I mean, definitely some shitty roads don't get around there is rough. So it's not all like, yeah, sunshine and smiles with those opinions. Sometimes they get you into some learning experiences. But it's great. It's. It's the beauty of life. Life isn't supposed to be. It's not supposed to be this simple robotic movement every day. 

Brian [04:14:11] Who knows? Maybe it is. Maybe we screwed that up, too. 

Meg [04:14:14] Oh, well, I'm happy to screw it up. It's like. It's like at the end, it's like, okay, I was supposed. 

Brian [04:14:20] To be a robot. 

Brian [04:14:20] Look at this detour we made. That was so much fun. 

Meg [04:14:23] I know this isn't so great. I really. I truly believe in what you're doing, and I love the way you're doing it, too. I know. I mean, I follow tons of accounts on social media, but sometimes like a type of, like, xma lex or, you know, elf on the shelf. I love those guys, but sometimes it's a little too angry. But, you know, I will get that in grade one if anything ever happens to Ukraine of people you know, if people go over there, not the war, I'm going to be really upset. But sometimes people come across as too angry rather than. Educational. Inspirational. I really want to. 

Brian [04:15:00] It's easier to get likes when you're angry. 

Brian [04:15:03] It is. And I know. 

Brian [04:15:05] What you want. Then you'll get angry. Likes. 

Meg [04:15:07] There's such a part of this process of being angry. And that's okay. Anger is an emotion that demands to be felt right. And it's okay to feel that. It's okay to feel angry. I was angry for a long time, but I really just. Really from the bottom of my heart. I just want people to choose a life that's good for them. And sometimes you don't know if your life is good for you until you really take a step back and go, my choice is making me happy and making those around me happy. And if it's in the church, great. Like, I'm not going to tell you otherwise. But I think really digging deep and also giving consent to an organization and knowing everything. And you're paying you're paying this organization. You are your this organization. You are getting married in this organization. You are relying your life upon this organization. I believe as a human right, you need to get consent to know absolutely everything within the church to sign on. And I know people who know everything and live parts of the gospel or insert themselves in certain positions that make them so whole. And that's great. I'm totally if you have all the information, you do whatever you want. Yeah. And that's kind of the argument is like I really want people to know, but also just. Don't live your life the way that someone else tells you. Just because they say it'll make you happy. You have to kind of discover your unhappiness. And I want different. Isn't that great? Yeah, I love that. 

Brian [04:16:38] I love. 

Meg [04:16:38] That. Yeah. This is so great talking to you. Yeah, this is really so cool. Very therapeutic. But it's also just. What a small world. 

Brian [04:16:47] Right. Right. I saw. 

Meg [04:16:49] You in person multiple times and just, like, not even known. 

Brian [04:16:51] It. 

Brian [04:16:52] Possibly. 

Meg [04:16:53] Yeah, well, it is between humor and being centered. 

Brian [04:16:57] If you ever went to a hockey game or lacrosse girls lacrosse game, then. 

Brian [04:17:00] Yep, I was there. 

Meg [04:17:02] That is so funny. So. Well, I really appreciate you. I really, truly like what you're doing is so unique and so special, and I really feel like you're giving people such a beautiful purpose to show. More being a more authentic in the world and you're creating a space for that. That's really cool. 

Brian [04:17:21] Thank you. Thank you so much for being so generous and so vulnerable and sharing your story and your emotions. 

Brian [04:17:28] Oh. 

Brian [04:17:29] It's been wonderful talking with you. This is by far my longest time. 

Brian [04:17:34] For a while. 

Brian [04:17:35] I've loved every minute of it. 

Meg [04:17:38] Thank you so much and thank you for sharing parts of your story and being vulnerable with me because I, I hold onto those I hold onto those stories that are similar to mine. I've gone through very similar things and it's it's a lot to share. And I really appreciate you sharing with me as well. So thank you. 

Brian [04:17:55] Thank you for listening to strangers. You know, if you're enjoying our conversations, please share us with a friend. Continue the conversation by sharing and liking on Facebook and social media, or for exclusive content and detailed show notes. Visit our website at Strangers you know podcast dot com where you can subscribe to our newsletter or make a donation to support the show. Thank you for your support.