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(CW: SI) Leaving the LDS church can cost people many valuable relationships, including family. Today's guest was actually "excommunicated from her family," which then led to a faith crisis, deconstruction, and her leaving the church, all within a very short period of time. She prefers to remain anonymous but has bravely and beautifully shared her story with others on her Instagram account, Her.Truth.Be.Told and I encourage all listeners to follow her there. (Today's Topics include: Enmeshed family, narcissism, abusive relationships, indoctrination, gaslighting, purity culture, suicide, tattoos, community, love bombing, and deconstruction.)
SYK – Her.Truth.Must.Be.Told Transcript – 5/19/2022
Her.Truth [00:00:00] In all of these on. A lot of hair. If it's not comfortable, then we should make it more comfortable. I can hear you. Let's make sure my hair's not. I just have a lot of it.
Brian [00:00:23] Okay. So just before we get started, I'm shooting for more of a conversation than an interview. I do have a bunch of questions. But if we just start having a conversation or if I ask a wrong question or something, you don't want to answer, whatever, just say, “Yes, that's the wrong question. A better question would be to ask me this.
Her.Truth [00:00:40] Okay.
Brian [00:00:40] Or, let me think about it and come back to it. And along those lines too, don't think about, don't give me your first response. Think about it for a second and give me the right response. Don't feel like you have to hurry and reply because we can cut out all kinds of garbage. And I want us to forget that these are even here. And it's just us talking.
Her.Truth [00:01:03] Okay.
Brian [00:01:04] Is that alright? My tagline, I think, for my podcast is going to be, “Honest, vulnerable and brave.” Which you exhibit to a million degrees in your posts, in sharing your story. So let me just start.
Her.Truth [00:01:24] Okay.
Brian [00:01:25] How are you feeling today? Tell me some emotions that are going through you right now.
Her.Truth [00:01:28] I'm already ready to cry. So that's the hard thing.
Brian [00:01:31] I need to get some tissues. Let me take a break. Let me grab some tissues.
Her.Truth [00:01:38] We'll take a deep breath. Yes.
Brian [00:02:28] Take a break or catch your breath or calm down or-
Her.Truth [00:02:32] Yes. No, it's okay.
Brian [00:02:33] I want you to be as comfortable as possible.
Her.Truth [00:02:34] No, it's okay.
Brian [00:02:36] I know it's very triggering and difficult. So, yes. Let's start again.
Her.Truth [00:02:42] Yes, it's okay.
Brian [00:02:43] How are you feeling today?
Her.Truth [00:02:46] Well, I don't know. So just, don't know. It just is one of those things. Just. It just I feel- Right now I'm just thinking and I just, I don't know, we'll just see how it goes. But I'm ready to cry at any moment.
Brian [00:03:05] It's not a bad thing.
Her.Truth [00:03:06] Yes. Yes. Okay. Okay.
Brian [00:03:12] Tell me. Talk with me a little bit about your thought process of sharing this new, sharing your story on Instagram.
Her.Truth [00:03:21] Well, my world is still very Mormon, so I grew up in the church. I'm the third oldest of ten kids, and I'm the only one who's left and-
Brian [00:03:37] Left in the church?
Her.Truth [00:03:37] Left in the church. And so, I just grew up in a very enmeshed family and, the church is enmeshed. So, it's just, I have, I don't feel comfortable sharing it on my main page. And I'm a writer and so, being able to express my words with the written word was very important for my deconstruction and for my voice, and to find a space that was safe, because it's just so hard when you're in your head so much. I couldn’t keep it in my head anymore.
Brian [00:04:15] Yes, it's understandable. Were you, like, journaling or writing on the side for your own at the same time, or?
Her.Truth [00:04:21] Well, journaling is hard for me because I'm a writer. And so, it's my day job. I'm like, I write for a lot of just local news, just things. I mean, anyway, but in so, journaling felt like a chore. And I also it's my art. And so, when I went, and I, there's a lot of different things, but journaling, I'm afraid of what will come out when I journal because I don't like the angry side of me. And so, when I write a journal, I get angry.
Her.Truth [00:05:00] “I just want to write in a way that I felt comfortable writing in and find some people who understood me. Because journaling is good as it is, it's by myself and I don't know anybody else who experienced what I experienced, so I just needed a connection.”
I'm sorry.
Brian [00:05:28] No, don't apologize. You're great.
Her.Truth [00:05:30] Yes.
Brian [00:05:31] So you're looking for a little bit of catharsis in a group? Maybe, would be in the same thing?
Her.Truth [00:05:35] Yes.
Brian [00:05:35] I'm sure you read a lot of comments and posts and Mormon stories and things like that, and that probably brought you some relief.
Her.Truth [00:05:44] Yes, it did.
Brian [00:05:46] “But it's very bold to say, okay, I'm ready to share my story, and put it permanently on words and out for the public to view.”
Her.Truth [00:05:56] Yes. But I haven't added my name to it. And it was, I don't have anything to hide. I guess I did put in some controls to make sure certain people couldn't find it. Not that I'm hiding from anybody. It's just, I've tried with those people, and I don't want to hurt anybody. And I am sensitive to my family as well because they have a life to live to.
Brian [00:06:30] So how has it been as far as catharsis of being able to put it out there and saying, yes, that's it? Have you been able to get some of that out of it?
Her.Truth [00:06:38] I have. I have been able to and I actually look forward to it because it gets me in the Mindspace of being able to be like, this is what happened. Because when you grow into this, I mean, I was in a very narcissistic family and gaslighting was a regular occurrence for me, having my reality distorted and me questioning myself all the time, and to be able to sit with myself and create a timeline and say, this is what happened, and to be able to be like, that didn't happen, but this did, this happened,
Her.Truth [00:07:20]“And to sit with myself, even if it didn't go anywhere with anybody else, I needed to sit with myself, and have a place.”
Yes, I’m surprised that people found me. I was like if I get ten followers…
Brian [00:07:37] How do you think they have found you?
Her.Truth [00:07:40] I mean, yes, I mean hashtags, because like, I don’t hashtag a lot, but like, I'll put like certain things not to get followers, but to find a community. I think that's why there’s hashtags for. And so, they found me and I found them.
Brian [00:08:02] And how has your response been? Said you were trying to find people. The comments that I've seen on there and how have you viewed those? Have they been helpful, the people that have reached out to you?
Her.Truth [00:08:13] Really a lot because before this, I thought I was, you feel like you're the only one that is going through this. Because you're not allowed to, I mean, just because you're in that world, you say, everybody's the same. And then as soon as you're different, you're like, I don't know anybody who's like me. And to find somebody or several other people who are like that happened to me and like, oh, my gosh, this is a thing. Yes. And so, yes, it's been good.
Brian [00:08:42] And you were saying that in your case, when you leave the church, you leave the whole community? I mean, I'm surrounded by church members, and I've left. I haven't been so bold as to until this podcast. I haven't been so bold as to put out there just across Facebook and everything else to say why or everything else, because I'm still working through a lot of issues. I'm still trying to figure out my thoughts on it. I don't want to be someone who is bitter and just throwing rocks.
But there's a lot of anger and confusion. And but I lost that whole community. We've lived here for 22 years and I've coached two different sports and there are people that I've coached with for eight years and served in the bishopric with, and the day I left, that was it. And for me, it was like losing a family. And in your case, on top of that, you actually did lose a portion of your family. And so, I totally get why that's the case. And you're looking for community.
But the other thing is, you feel like you're the only one out there because so many people are in the same situation and they're not as brave as you as to be willing to share. And I think you see that a lot in your comments. This happened to me too. But they're commenting on your post, or they have created their own.
Brian [00:10:!4] Well, let's jump in to that question, if I can grab that. I don't know if I put that on. Yes, right here. Some of the people that have commented on your posts have usernames that are not their personal names for, I'm assuming, the same reason. But I just want to read some of them and then I'm going to ask you a question. So, you have sovereign soul searching, a new point of view, boundless and free, left the garden, and broke the chains of bondage. What's going on here?
Her.Truth [00:10:46] Just a lot of people who are trying to, I think, just be just like me but they can't. They can't name themselves. They just have to. It's too scary.
Brian [00:11:00] What's the fear about what?
Her.Truth [00:11:02] It's hard to explain. I mean, I don't post on my main page, and it's not I mean, I guess there's a lot of fear, but it's also like it's not for them. Like I, as much as the Mormon Church has an agenda to get followers, their agenda is to grow and to get people to join or whatever. My agenda is not even to get people to leave. And so like, if it works for you and you're not hurting other people, you do you. So, I guess for me, if I post on my main page, I'm just going to alienate people, and right now, for me, I think it's important to just find another community and grow that and just leave. Not that I’m leaving my old self behind. It's like, that's not for you.
Brian [00:12:05] But aren't you leaving part of your old self behind? Aren't you choosing which parts you want to move forward with, which you don't? That's part of the pain.
Her.Truth [00:12:12] Yes, it's a huge part of the pain. But the thing is, like, I don't want to be like my family. An Amish family is like, you're either with us or you're against us. And I don't want to be that. I can have friends in the church. And so, if I am posting about it, I'm going to lose them. And I think my relationship with people is more important than my beliefs.
And so, I feel like I don't even want to go there, but I am leaving a part of myself behind. And I know that I'm that part of me is leaking into my main. And that's I guess for me, that's the goal when you leave you have to live a compartmentalized life a little bit. And that's where I'm at. And then a little bit here, I’ll show my shoulders on social media or I will like I go a long time without posting about the church and the people. I think my community will form as it goes, but right now I'm very compartmentalized. Yes.
Brian [00:13:25] And yes, that's very well said. I had a lot of comments I was going to make while you were saying that, and I forgot all of those things. No, no, no. Because I love your comments. It was fantastic. So let me change tactics for just a second. Tell me about your tattoo. You have a post on it.
Her.Truth [00:13:40] I have a tattoo. I never in a million years thought I would get one.
Brian [00:13:47] Why? It’s the worst thing.
Her.Truth [00:13:49] It is the worst thing. Your body's a temple. So, and I just, I got it. And it's of two flowers, two kinds of sunflowers with the branch intertwined. And I have nine kids and I did the thing. I did the thing. I multiplied and I replenished the earth. But I just, as I've deconstructed, I just, I didn't look at my children as extensions of me. I wanted them to become themselves.
And I'm a runner. I'm an ultra-runner. I get outside a lot.
Her.Truth [00:14:34] “I love the seasons and the changing of the seasons and how leaves fall. The they become the dirt and then they grow into something new. My tattoo is a metaphor of seasons. We have these things, but we're not extensions of each other. When the seasons change, we can change with it.”
Brian [00:14:57] Beautiful.
Her.Truth [00:14:59] Yes.
Brian [00:15:00] I found in my disentanglement that there were certain stages that were very distinct. I'm stepping from this to that. I'm making a conscientious decision. I'm doing something or saying something that I mean but once I say it, it's out there and I can't take it back. I'm sure that's not unique to everyone that's made these types of decisions. Tell me a little bit if the tattoo was one of them because you did post about it. Tell me how you felt going in to get the tattoo and when you were getting it and when you left, because that was the thing, like, okay, now you've done the thing, now you've done this thing and it's permanent, and it's out there and it's bold. Tell me about your feelings going into that. Were you apprehensive or were you…?
Her.Truth [00:16:00] I wasn’t. And it is interesting because and I don't talk much about it. My leaving the church was really…a lot of people leave and then they lose their family. I lost my family because I learned about, I don't know how much I can go into it, but essentially a sister-in-law confided in me about abuse in her marriage. I listened and I finally, for the first time, acknowledged, yes, I grew up in an abusive household. It's something that I shoved way. And I didn't bring it up.
My mom was very abusive. And I knew I needed help. And so that was the beginnings of my story. And once I opened up about abuse, it was, you're not one of us. We don't talk about that. What happens in our family stays in our family. I left with a target on my back. There's a smear campaign. If you learn about narcissistic families, mine is. I was a year ago, like, this weak. So, I'm still kind of, I haven't anyway. But that happened? And then as I was getting pushed down, everything, I started to go to outsiders. My aunts and uncles who were estranged from and an older brother.
Brian [00:17:40] That had all been targeted and excommunicated from your family.
Her.Truth [00:17:43] Yes, but I had animosity toward them because I was told that they were bad. And I was like, now I'm one of you. I’m one of you and I need help. And then I learned about a lot of family things. And it was I mean; I know I'm circling back to this tattoo thing but it was like I learned that I lived a life full of lies. I was lied to my entire life.
My mom, I mean, just lie after lie after lie about people and my family. And I just remember,
Her.Truth [00:18:14] “When I found out, I remember thinking, if they can lie, I can show my shoulders. If they can lie, I can get a tattoo.”
Because I was like, why? You don't lie. You don't lie to people. And so, for me, it wasn't a rebellious thing. It was like, this is not bad. This is not a lie.
“I don't lie. I'm a good person. I don't lie and I don't hurt people. I don't lie and I don't abuse. I can get a tattoo. And so, it was very, very liberating.”
And it was a funny thing. After I posted about a younger brother who had just returned from a mission, he commented on it and he just blasted me. And it was and I ended up deleting that comment. And I messaged him and I said, hey, we get so many negativities on here and I just explained to him why I deleted it. And then more lashings came.
Brian [00:19:10] No apology. Imagine that.
Her.Truth [00:19:12] Oh, no.
Brian [00:19:13] No, you’re right, it's your body. You can do what you want.
Her.Truth [00:19:15] No, he hasn't spoken to me since. And he's my baby brother. I was 18 when he was born. He wants nothing to do with me.
Brian [00:19:27] Yet.
Her.Truth [00:19:29] Oh, I'm not there yet.
Brian [00:19:31] No, no, but he might be.
Her.Truth [00:19:33] Yes, I am ready. I will never shut him out. It's so hard because it's like, my thing with people in the church, I don't wish for them to leave because I know how it's going to hurt. And the pain is so terrible. And the extension to my family is, I just know, if what happened to me happens to them? I don't wish that on them. I’ll be here to catch them, but I don't want them to experience the pain. This is one of those things.
Brian [00:20:16] So you said a couple of things that I wanted to go back to.
Brian [00:20:20] One of them you said with your family, you're either in or you're out. And I think the church is very much like that as well. Right? Everything is black and white.
And you are either on the straight and narrow path and you're holding to the iron rod or you're lost and you get the pity of many people like, oh, the poor thing. She's lost, she's confused. She doesn't know what she's thinking. She's read anti-Mormon literature. She wants to sin. She's a lazy learner.
All of the things that the church say about people that are leaving, of which none of it was true from anybody that I've ever met that's left the church, having leave left for those reasons. But they have to, similar to your mother, they have to come up with reasons and stories to tell everybody why, that you should no longer be part of the tribe. You now have to be put out of the gates and excommunicated.
You use that term for your family. And I thought it was brilliant. Because it's very similar. And to have that double whammy is incredibly painful. I mean, these are the people that you've grown your whole life with. You respect them, you admire them, you've looked up to them, you believed everything they say, and all of a sudden, you're put outside the gates. For what? For telling the truth.
Her.Truth [00:21:37] It's all about ego. It's about ego. I've had to do a lot of self-reflection myself because I was becoming my mom. I wasn't lying, but just like the church, you are molded to reflect back what they put out. You are reflections of Christ, follow the prophet, all of those things and you’ll become an image. And it's the same thing with a narcissistic mother. The only way to please her is to mirror back what she's putting out. I had nine kids; she has ten kids. You're always avoiding the fall because you know how bad it is.
Brian [00:22:28] Because you will be punished.
Her.Truth [00:22:28] You will be punished. And I was avoiding the fall. And so, and I feel like I mean, I didn't answer your question. I can't remember where I was.
Brian [00:22:38] No, no, that was great. That was great. I was just talking about, you're either in or you’re out. It’s black and white.
Her.Truth [00:22:44] And that's the thing like it is. I remember my mom…and I have such an involved story, but my older sister died by suicide almost 16 years ago. And my family blamed her husband not. I mean, I've learned so much more about that whole thing. I mean, here's my- Oh, it's so hard. But we were told to follow my parent's lead and don't do anything that they didn't do. And they didn't- they basically, we were not to talk to my sister's husband and she had three kids. We were not to talk to them. And it was, my mom who used the term just like leaders do, you jumping ship?
If I would go and talk to my brother-in-law, if I would try to set up a playdate with my nieces and nephews who are the same age as my older kids. It was you jumping ship. You're not doing that. We are not doing it so you shouldn't do it. And it was just, I was just like always trying to, you can't have it both ways. And I mean, I see the church as one big narcissistic family. If you study narcissism, it is exactly that.
Brian [00:24:04] But right up until you saw that and it sounded like it all hinged upon your sister-in-law calling you and then your response the next day with your father and his response back to you. It sounds like there are a couple of quick events that all of a sudden opened your eyes to a situation that you were unaware of before or you had chosen to ignore before or a combination of both or whatever. But you had successfully managed to ignore it up until this point. And how old were you at that time? This was just a year ago?
Her.Truth [00:24:31] Yes, 38.
Brian [00:24:31] 38. So, I was 50 when the scales fell from my eyes, so to speak. And I'm like, 50 years. Are you kidding me?
Her.Truth [00:24:42] Yes. It's hard.
Brian [00:24:43] So there are a lot of emotions wrapped up in that. My wife has this great saying.
“It is an incredible blessing to be so phenomenally wrong about something so important in your life. It just opens your eyes to what else am I wrong about.”
Her.Truth [00:25:02] Hmm?
Brian [00:25:03] Who am I? What is life about? What is my, all of my relationships you question. But before that, you were looking at what I call looking through your spiritual eyes. You say it's your faith. You trust. You believe. You doubt your doubts, not your faith. If you have any concerns, put them on a shelf. But all at once you saw through your real eyes and you've made a few comments that said, let's see, where was this?
Oh, you started to say, I knew my parents love for me was conditional but what about God's? So now you're seeing this piece, and now you're able to ask and be open and look someplace else and apply it and start questioning it. And your response to your own question was God was conditional and expected conformity.
Brian [00:25:56] So, the question that I was going towards is, people that are still in the church, that are still seeing through their spiritual eyes or their faith or whatever, how much do we hold them accountable for just not being able to see it?
Her.Truth [00:26:11] Yes.
Brian [00:26:12] Because 38 years, 50 plus years, I was right there with them.
Her.Truth [00:26:17] Mm hmm. I don't know if you can hold accountable. I guess it gives you, you understand them. And so, it's just because I think I can't attack them because I was one of them.
Brian [00:26:31] Two weeks ago, a year ago, whatever.
Her.Truth [00:26:33] And I'm like, I know. There is nothing I can do to open their eyes. There's something that has to happen or not anyhow, they cannot, it may never happen for them, but I'm not going to because as much as I try to, they're only going to see me as somebody who's terrible. So, their view of me is changed. And that's a really hard thing.
Brian [00:27:04] “It is hard because you can see them and understand them, but they still can't see you.”
Her.Truth [00:27:10] No they can't.
Brian [00:27:12] And they're not going to be able to see you until they can see you.
Her.Truth [00:27:15] Yes. And it's hard because I mean, my in-laws are still very much in. But they want to see. I just have to, I guess, respect their beliefs. Just like, I think we all just want that. We all just want to live. And as long as they're respecting me and treating me with kindness, I'm not going to, because I have these moments where I want to send this to my mother-in-law, because I want her to see me, I want her to understand me. And right now, it’s just probably going to cause her pain. And it's probably because people lose their marriages over this. I don't want that. If the way she survives this life, really anybody does, right now is this, I'm going to let them. I just have to realize that they're not going to see me.
Brian [00:28:25] It's so interesting to me that an organization that thrives on evangelizing their beliefs and indoctrinating people, that this is the only right way. When people leave, one of the last things they want to do is convince people that they're right, that they're like, no, there are lots of different ways, and if that's working for you, good for you. And it doesn't work for me anymore so I'm leaving. But it's just one of those, I think part of that blessing of just having your eyes open, you're like, okay, I can see a few other things now that weren't there before.
So, I was thinking of your dad. He gave a response that I've heard versions of this several times over. When you went to him talking about your mom and said that she's killing you, she's telling lies and everything else, and his response was, have your husband put his hands on your head and give you a blessing? For the people that have their eyes open, that have seen that, just look at that comment like, are you kidding me?
Her.Truth [00:29:26] Yes.
Brian [00:29:26] But if they're still using their eyes of faith, that's the right answer. Right? That's always the right answer. Go to church. Say your prayers. Get a priesthood blessing.
And let's talk about guilt and shame for just a second, because this is a good segue way for that. Any time you're not getting the blessings that you're you really need and anytime you're really struggling, it's because of something that you're doing. You're not worthy. There's something in your life. And we are taught that it's our fault, not that there's nobody there to answer the prayers or that whatever. But we're taught that you're doing something wrong so you're just not worthy of these blessings.
Tell me a little bit about guilt and shame. And even you currently, that's one of the hardest things, I think, to scrub out. And it's something that just keeps us and pushes us, kicks us to the curb every single time while you're in the church and even once you get out.
Her.Truth [00:30:32] But oh, gosh, guilt and shame. That's just the story of my life. The church's way of turning the issue on you. It's where, when, like you said, when I go to my dad and I needed help, it was, you look inward and then, have God take care of it. And I guess I was wanting to speak to that a little bit, but I'm sorry, that was where my mind was going.
Brian [00:31:10] Go. That's fine.
Her.Truth [00:31:12] But yes, because, when it happened was like my, that conversation you're talking about is I was going for a run and I just, I stopped and I said, this needs to stop, I'm not doing okay, like, I was not okay. I mean, I would run and I would be like, if the road ended, I'd be fine. I didn't want to hurt myself. I just was like, I'm so tired. And he told me, he said, I'm going to give your mom a piece of blessing and I think you should ask your husband to give you one. And I was like, what? That's not going to help.
I had remembered my sister was going through what she did before she took her life. I did all of those things. I said, have you prayed? And I even guilted her. If we talk about guilt and shame, this is 2006, there wasn't much said even in the church about suicide. And I was under the understanding that it was a sin to kill yourself. And I remember sitting on my couch and talking to her after she had already attempted one time. And I said, we don't do that. We’re an eternal family. You don't do that. You won't be one of us, in so many words. And rather than sitting with her and listening to her, I was too worried about her eternal salvation and the things that she was doing that the church said to do or what was wrong. I didn't sit with her and I didn't attend to her physical needs.
I told my dad that. I said, no, that's not going to help. My spiritual self is fine. My physical self is not. I remember telling him that. I got no response. Nothing.
Her.Truth [00:33:26] “I needed a hug. I needed somebody to sit with me and validate and not turn it on me again and again, like, you're not faithful enough.”
This is you. Look for the mote in your eye or whatever the scriptures say. No, I'm telling you what happened. I'm telling you. But you're telling me it's my fault. And was that my whole life. I reflected inward. Okay, what am I doing wrong? What can I do better? I'll read my scriptures. I'll go pay more tithing. And that was always an answer to with as many kids as I have, struggling to keep food on the table. And the answer is always like, pay more fast offerings. I don't even have money for- how?
Brian [00:34:16] Give more, do more, be more.
Her.Truth [00:34:19] Yes, give more, be more, serve more. And I was so tired.
Brian [00:34:23] If it's not working, do it, double it, triple it. But it's not working.
Her.Truth [00:34:28] Yes. Sorry, I [unintelligible 00:34:30] a little bit.
Brian [00:34:31] No. It’s wonderful. That's what I want to go on. Let's go where you want to go.
Her.Truth [00:34:34] Yes.
Brian [00:34:35] You also mentioned you brought up something that’s about the tithing and you mentioned this in your writings. And I encourage everyone to go on and look at these and read these because she does a fantastic job. It's beautifully written.
Her.Truth [00:34:49] Thank you.
Brian [00:34:50] Very painful to read. How many people said, I thought I was the only one. And thank you for sharing your story. This makes me feel better. That's why I do these conversations. It's why I have people come in and make them cry, sit in that chair, and ask them about how awful things are. Hopefully we talk about good things too.
But you talked about tithing and you said now that you are out of the church, you're more generous to those around you that you know who are in need. I have found lessons like that in so many different areas.
When I was in the church, I had the answer. I knew all about the afterlife and the celestial kingdom and what you had to do to get there. And I wasn't worried about death. And when I left, coming to terms with death is a different issue. It's like, well, what if it's just the end? What if it's just over? What if you just turn back into dust and the universe rebuild something else with you? And I found that I was actually more at peace with that concept than with, we know the answer and it's going to be this. Never would have guessed that when I was in the church, I would look at people that were outside of the church and say, how were they teaching their children values and morals and everything if they don't have primary and they don't have the indoctrination of the primary songs.
Brian [00:36:19] Outside of the church, you find out that there are amazing people with amazing kids and they don't go to any church. And it was just so eye-opening. And not only that, but their kids are also better than a lot of the people that are the true believing families and have been there for generations. And it's just the paradox of that just really hit me. Have you noticed any other things like that?
Her.Truth [00:36:39] So much. And here's the thing where I can move into even though my past is so hard to heal from. The future I see with my kids, I just love it because it has open conversations. I think each one, my older kids especially, because my oldest is almost 18 and then I go all the way down to three. But like I've got I've had some incredible conversations with my teenagers. And the thing is, like, to be able to say I don't know is so much more powerful to say than saying I know. And then let's learn together or let's not find out, and you learn, and you find your path.
My oldest, his deconstruction was a lot of mythology. He was very big in Norse mythology. And he's like, these stories have been told for a very long time and different versions. And he talks about that and I let him talk about that. And then my 15-year-old, he's fine. He's probably more of an atheist, which is awesome because you believe what you believe or not believe, and it doesn't have to be that now, it can change. But removing a lot of those things has opened up conversations even with sex.
Brian [00:38:14] You talk about sex? Oh, my goodness.
Her.Truth [00:38:15] We actually do. We talk about it.
Brian [00:38:20] I mean, more than just keep your shoulders covered and then on your wedding night, everything will be fine?
Her.Truth [00:38:25] Oh my goodness. I mean, the conversations. And the thing is, it opens up with my boys and they're so open about, and it's just I think that…and one of my teenagers just got a girlfriend. And it's so funny. It wasn't that long ago like he wanted to leave school with her. This is a funny story, but he like he texted me and he's like, I don't have to be to this class and can I just come home with this girlfriend? And I said, no, I'm not going to excuse a slack. He’s like, well, I'll either come home or we'll go somewhere else. I’m like, come home. So, it's like now, now that I'm not afraid of keeping an image, I'm just like, okay, we talk and we just talk. Where in the church before, you didn't talk, you just had to be this perfect image and religion is I found it has never been a proven way to keep people from having premarital sex or doing drugs. It just teaches them to lie about it.
Brian [00:39:29] Or they don't know what they're doing and they get themselves into a lot of trouble.
Her.Truth [00:39:32] Yes.
Brian [00:39:33] Or they just don't find what they need to find from it because it's like, whatever, all the weird stuff that's going on down at BYU, it's like, just come on, this is ridiculous.
Her.Truth [00:39:44] Yes, that has been good. That's the light. My children are just so fun.
Brian [00:39:50] So you mentioned about being put outside the gates for the church and your family, but look at the relationships that are blossoming, not only with individuals. I'm assuming you've reached out to the individuals. Well, I know you respond to a lot of the comments on Instagram, I'm assuming have had conversations beyond that. Have you met with some of them, become friends, just pen pals and stuff for now?
Brian [00:40:11] “But the relationships you're having with your family, with your individual family, with your own kids, it's a beautiful thing. And that wouldn't have been there.”
Her.Truth [00:40:19] Oh, not at all. It wouldn't have been like that.
Brian [00:40:23] That mom was the mom that was yelling at the family to, you had another quote that, there was yelling at the family to get out. You got to get to church. And by the time you got there, you were the perfect family. You were all there. You had so many kids and they were all dressed in their ties and their- and you were so miserable, you're sick to your stomach, you couldn't even stay there.
Her.Truth [00:40:39] Yes, that was the last Sunday we went. I remember like we decided to go as a family. We're going to do this because we go in spurts because of the pandemic. And it was just like even justifying it, like, cause we're like, okay, well, just if some of us go, or if some of us do this and we finally say we're all going to go. And some we're not having any of it. And I have a 14-year-old at the time, I remember just guilty of shaming him. And we talk about like, why don't you want to go to church? You should want to go to church. This is where we need to be. What is wrong with you? And I heard myself saying all of these things and they went, we all went in. They all because they know they're conditioned to know how to act in church. So, they acted really well in church except for like the little ones.
And I walked in and I just remember feeling closed in like I can't be here. I can't be here. I took my youngest out and actually my youngest two and I met my husband in the hallway. He had another child. He wasn't doing so well, just the younger ones. And I took them to a park and I was like, I just cried. I sat on the bench. And I watched my three younger boys just going on the monkey bars and just having a good time. And we didn't go back.
Brian [00:42:07] When did you make the decision to not go back? Was it right then? Was it the next week? Was at some point in between? Was it a discussion?
Her.Truth [00:42:13] Well, this all happened in the space of a month. Lost my faith, my family, in the space of a month, if not a week. It all came down like basically the week, maybe two weeks, Mother's Day. And it was just it all just came down and I was like, I don't need this. We don't need this. And I read all of the essays.
Brian [00:42:44] Before then, you had read them?
Her.Truth [00:42:45] No. It was in that week span. Some people describe it as slow burn or getting hit by Mack truck.
Brian [00:42:55] That’s me, I'm a slow burn.
Her.Truth [00:42:56] I get hit by a Mack truck. I got hit. I was like, and thankfully, my husband, I mean, he's just so great because if anything, I indoctrinated him. He didn't serve a mission, which was the end of the world.
Brian [00:43:14] Yes, well, that's why he fell away from the church as he didn't have a testimony because your husband wasn’t a missionary?
Her.Truth [00:43:18] Yes, we didn't have the priesthood in our home. And so, I'm sure that's a narrative that is being told, which, to be completely honest, is like true but not bad. So, it's like one of those things like, yes, he didn't hold the priesthood over our heads. He didn't force our children to go to church. He was the one like when I would do is like, I mean, you're just going to make, I'm sorry, you're going to make them not want to go if you do this. And he was more or less the nuance guy which has been such a blessing because they didn't have full-on indoctrination, both parents.
So, when I decided it was done, they're like, yes! They were so happy. But my husband has his own trying to because he wasn't indoctrinated. He doesn't feel as betrayed by the church as I do.
Brian [00:44:18] So, you mentioned anger a couple of times. I don’t want to talk about that because you mentioned it like it's a bad thing. And I always used to think it was as well. But I've heard a couple of quotes lately that made me start thinking. Anger is a gift because it shows you where your boundaries are.
Her.Truth [00:44:36] Yes. Well, I do. I mean, I understand anger and I do get angry but I honestly don't like that side of me. I suppress anger as that's the most the biggest emotion that I suppress. But I don't think it's a bad thing at all. I don't know.
Brian [00:45:01] I'm not a therapist. I'm not trying to convince you or…
Her.Truth [00:45:03] And here's the thing. My dad is.
Brian [00:45:06] My wife is too.
Her.Truth [00:45:08] I grew up in- we were told we don't show anger. And so, I think when I do, I mean, I'm a runner and when I feel anger, I just run away. I get my running shoes and I run up the hill and I just hammer it out.
Brian [00:45:27] Sometimes you have to call from Wyoming and say, I'm not angry anymore. Come get me.
Her.Truth [00:45:30] I know. I'll run. I'll tell my husband I'm running that way and I'll call you when I'm done. But I really just have to run. I have to feel the physical. I have to do it until I can’t anymore. And then I do, I mean, get angry. I scream in my head, and I don’t want to scream on my kids.
Brian [00:45:51] No, for sure. You don't have to act on the anger.
Her.Truth [00:45:54] Yes, but that's something I have to work on because I think it's important for them to see that people can get angry.
Brian [00:46:01] Yes. “You can be angry and you can sit with anger and try to learn from it. Also, without anger it's hard to make many changes. Anger is usually what pushes into saying, I'm not going back there anymore.”
Her.Truth [00:46:11] Oh that's it. I was angry. I'll tell you; I was angry when I found out the lies that my mom had told me about my older brother specifically that he has stolen lots of money and all of this. And I called her and I was angry. I was very angry and I said, I will not be lied to. I basically said, you, and this is in the middle of a smear campaign, I said, you took my dad for me. He took my siblings from me. You do not get to have my children.
It wasn't that she was hurting them. It's just what the church does. They kill people of kindness. Yes. Look at all the good we do. This love bombing. It's all of that and all these nice people and then they get you and then they can manipulate you. They can manipulate your mind. And I knew that if she got my children, she could turn my children against me. Because she turned my dad, she turned my siblings, and I was not going to allow that. And I got angry. Then she started saying things that I never did. And that's when I know, I'm like, this is not my problem.
Brian [00:47:25] So that's where that was the end of your relationship with your mom?
Her.Truth [00:47:29] It was the last time I spoke to her.
Brian [00:47:31] Be grateful for that anger because it saved your relationship with your kids.
Her.Truth [00:47:36] Yes.
Brian [00:47:37] And it ended a toxic environment that you needed to end. And you wouldn't have ended if you weren't angry. It would have just continued.
Her.Truth [00:47:45] I was so angry. I am very grateful for that conversation, as traumatic as it was. And she just she said that I didn't have the spirit with me. And so it was, again, like, I can't talk to you, you don't have the spirit with you. And I remember thinking, the spirit, whatever that is to you, you can kill people. You can murder somebody silently. It's not a decibel thing. It's the fact that I was yelling at her. I mean, I wasn't even yelling. I was talking sternly to her. But I think as I dissected that spirit part, I didn't I wasn't mirroring back to her what she was saying. She was calm and collected. And I think when we say that person doesn't have the spirit, it's just, I don't have your spirit with me. I'm not mirroring you. I'm not, but I am angry and I have emotions. And I think when people say that when people who leave the church, they don't have the spirit. I don’t think that's that, I think it's we are different. We are now different. And we're not reflecting back what you're putting out into the world.
Brian [00:49:00] Yes, but she's going to come up with a reason why you're wrong.
Her.Truth [00:49:03] Oh, my gosh. Yes.
Brian [00:49:04] Right? It's the spirit. It's you don't have all the information. It's you don't even know. It's whatever. Oh, another one that you mentioned was those of us that have been on missions understand the Old Testament. Let's talk a little bit about them putting you outside.
Brian [00:49:26] There was a topic I wanted to talk about with that. Where was that? Oh, it was under indoctrination and how they turn a lot of this into, well, the reason her child died, the reason they're not able to have children, the reason your career choices. Talk about those subtle digs of indoctrination that you've experienced or you've become aware of that, looking back on it is like, that is nothing short of brainwashing.
Her.Truth [00:49:58] Well, gosh, all of it.
Brian [00:49:59] I saw three of them that you put in your posts, but…
Her.Truth [00:50:02] Sure, like, what would you want me to focus on?
Brian [00:50:05] Just not one specific, but if you had other things like, well, so let's talk about indoctrination. How does the church get you into this place where everything we say is right, don't look at anything outside of the church or even the stuff that's on the website that you shouldn't be reading because you're not going to understand it because you didn't serve a mission, and so you don't understand the Old Testament and it's over your head, you don't have the priesthood so that's going to be a challenge for you. Well just rely on us. And if there's ever a problem with any of this, you should probably get a blessing from a priesthood holder, or you should pray, or spend more time in the temple or, I mean, I've mentioned 500 of them. Maybe I should stop and let you talk about.
Her.Truth [00:50:49] I think the general thing I'm getting there is the indoctrination is just always, they’re the only source for information. And it starts from a young age. And your primary and all of those things line up, precept upon precepts. All of those things, they indoctrinate you and they always turn you back into the source. And my family's big thing was the source. You go to the source for information and so on.
But when you're told that the church is the only source, you have no other sources you're seeing that it's the source. And that's if you I remember even telling my children this. I remember saying, if you wanted to know the answers, if you want to know about the church, who would you ask? The church leaders. And it's just like that. It's like, wait a second, no. I was telling my husband about this.
Even with my mom, my dad always redirects me to my mom. She was there. She knows more. She's this. And the thing is, it’s sending you back to a poisoned, stagnant pond to drink water over and over and over again. There are sources like that, may be a source for water, but that's going to kill you. There are plenty of sources that are not good sources.
Her.Truth [00:52:24] “The indoctrination is just that we're told that this is the only source and not to go anywhere else. It just keeps you in, just redirects you in. Then the love bombing and all of these wonderful things light the world and look, we're good and we're a good source of information. We're good. We're not like them. So why would I want to go anywhere else?”
And you're just brainwashed and brainwashed back into how the church changes when it wants to. And you just like go with it, and just follow it. You got me started.
Brian [00:53:00] No, that’s what I wanted to do, though. That's exactly what we're here for. So, who is your source now or what is your source now? You've given up that source. I think when we open our eyes, we realize, okay, that's not only the only source, but it's probably not even a source. And then later you realize that's completely the wrong source.
Her.Truth [00:53:17] Yes.
Brian [00:53:18] What has that been replaced with? What is your source now?
Her.Truth [00:53:22] Well, it's myself. The thing is, like when you leave a situation like the church where you are looking to an outside source for information constantly, it's easy to fall into something else that has a similar process. And I found myself doing that for a second because I remember finding a man on Instagram that I just I thought he just he had everything that I was not I mean, an older man, not somebody I like.
Brian [00:53:55] You didn't find a man on Instagram. That sounded wrong.
Her.Truth [00:53:58] So that sounded really wrong. But this is a wise man, let's just say, He just posted things that resonated with me and he had some ties to the church. And so, I felt like he was safe because he had ties to the church and everything. And I knew his kids. And that's what I loved his relationship with his kids because his kids were different. His kids, he had kids that had tattoos. He had kids who had different religions and all of these things and he loved them. I'm like, that does not exist in my family. I wanted to talk to this man like, how were you making this fit? Because there's no differentiation in the Mormon Church. There's no differentiation in my family. How was it? Because I never even understood nuances. It’s black and white. So, I messaged him and,
Her.Truth [00:54:56] “He basically, gave me no advice other than he redirected me inward and he said, you have everything that you need.”
And he said he lived by the 11th and 13th Articles of Faith. You know that we claim the privileges and worship the Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience and the other one just being anything which is lovely and good report and all those things. He said, I live strictly by those two things. And he said that you have everything that you need. And I just remember just being like, oh my gosh, I went to a wise man and he directed me back to myself.
Brian [00:55:33] A wise man.
Her.Truth [00:55:33] Yes. And he had me at a vulnerable place. If he was a man who had an agenda and he even said this to me, he said, I have no agenda. I had no agenda. He's like, people leave for their own reasons and they stay for their own reasons. And he was just like, I couldn't have been directed to a more perfect person to just, you know. And he said, if anybody comes to you, you tell them to see me.
I'm sending my oldest son off to college soon. And, if a year ago, if we had continued on the same path, I probably would have been like, okay, we've got to find your bishop. We've got to find, you're going to take institute, and I would have packed his scriptures, made sure those things were in his, and make sure he even though he's leaving this bubble, he's going to go into the other bubble that's sustainable. Right.
Her.Truth [00:56:33] “Now, I think I want to pack him a bunch of pictures of himself. I want to give him the gift of himself. I want him to trust himself.”
And so that's a long way to answer.
Brian [00:56:49] It’s fantastic. It's great. “He's going to make some mistakes and he's going to cause some problems for himself. But the world is not going to end and he's going to learn from those and he's going to get over them. He'll struggle and he'll have some hard times. But that's not going to be the end of the world.”
Her.Truth [00:57:03] Then I'll be here for him. I don't want my kids to go looking for another wise man. I want them to know I’ll always be here to support them. But I don't want them looking for another wise man.
Brian [00:57:19] But the church does not allow that. It's not a buffet-style religion. You don't get to pick and choose. You have all of it crammed down your throat until you leave. Then you realize, oh, that wasn't very, very good at all.
Her.Truth [00:57:33] Yes. And there aren't nuances. And that's the really hard thing for me is you have all these nuance people and if yes, okay, I can show my shoulders I'm nuance. Okay. And [unintelligible 00:57:7], I'm nuance. Okay. But still, you still believe that it's the only way to heaven. And if you don't, what is it then? What does the church operate on? Because that's what it says, that if you're not part of this, you won't have your family with you. And so, it is black and white, even though it looks like it's not. It is.
Brian [00:58:13] Right. And the Lord says, I wish you were hot or cold and not lukewarm because I will spew you out of my mouth. There's no nuance.
Her.Truth [00:58:20] Yes. There isn’t.
Brian [00:58:21] There’s hot or there's cold. There's warm. And there's all kinds of different temperatures. There are all kinds of- See it right there. But until you can see it, you can't.
Her.Truth [00:58:30] Yes. I never made it quite to the nuance phase.
Brian [00:58:34] Well, you didn’t serve a mission, so you don't know the Old Testament. That would have solved so many problems.
Her.Truth [00:58:38] It know it would have.
Brian [00:58:41] So, one of my crowning moments is all four of my kids graduated from seminary.
Her.Truth [00:58:46] Oh, wow.
Brian [00:58:49] None of them wanted to do that. One of them was clearly out of the church for years before she even started seminary, and she went out of respect for us.
Her.Truth [00:58:59] Oh.
Brian [00:59:01] And I did that to her.
Her.Truth [00:59:02] Yes, it's hard. It's hard.
Brian [00:59:05] And you look back at people, and when I first started to unravel, I was in the bishopric, first counselor in the bishopric.
Her.Truth [00:59:14] Wow.
Brian [00:59:15] And I was struggling. I actually got to the point where I had to ask to be released. Because I'm not very quick thinker. I'm pretty slow thinker and a very deep thinker either. But I was just pretty slow coming around to it, but it was a painful process.
Her.Truth [00:59:35] Yes. I've heard, I mean there's no not painful way out of it.
Brian [00:59:43] There isn't. and I'm writing for it as well. I'm actually writing a book about it. It's a novel. So, I'm putting all kinds of different stories in there. It's about a bishop that becomes unraveled and sits down in an interview with a 12-year-old boy and says Who's confessed to masturbating and says, Justin, boys masturbate.
Her.Truth [01:00:03] Yes.
Brian [01:00:04] And he's like, where did that come from? I can't say that. I mean, that's where that was the beginning for him as he started to think, why was it my role to make him feel so bad? Because he was a shell of a person sitting there. And he mentioned that. And the kid changed. And by the time the kid walked out of the office, you could tell he was almost human again. But that wasn't a human that crawled in there just feeling like the weight of everything. And the kid ended up being okay with it and ended up coming around. And that boy's mother was not. He wasn't allowed. He shouldn't have been allowed to pass the priesthood, pass the sacrament. He should have. And she wanted to make sure and she wanted her pound of flesh. And so anyway, that's how that story all started. But. I digressed a little bit there.
Her.Truth [01:00:45] No, you're fine. I didn't want any of my kids to ever be in a compassion situation. Ever. And so. And they haven't been. Because before we left. And I mean, we are just. And but they have come to me, like even before all of this, my son had come to me and told me about things. And I, I don't think I guilt and shamed him. I just said, oh, well, things really like I didn't make him feel bad. I never wanted to make my kids feel bad, ever. And so now they just kind of…
Brian [01:01:22] But. But how wonderful is it that they feel comfortable enough they can come to you?
Her.Truth [01:01:25] Yes. I am so grateful for that because I couldn't. So, I guess even with me even in the church, I was like, my kids are going to feel comfortable talking to me. They're not going to. I'm not going to guilt and shame them. I won't. I wanted to be safe. And so that I think that was just one of those things. I didn't want them to go to a man they didn't know and tell things. I wanted to be the person to help them.
Brian [01:01:57] Where do you come off?
Her.Truth [01:01:58] I know.
Brian [01:01:59] Helping your own children. Not relying on. Yes, that's. That's crazy. There are so many things. Yes, I have a couple more questions, but I wanted to ask you before we moved on. Are you doing okay? You want to take a little break here?
Her.Truth [01:02:13] I’m fine.
Brian [01:02:15] Is there something that's come up that you want to talk about that we haven't discussed yet?
Her.Truth [01:02:20] I don't know.
Brian [01:02:22] Do you feel grilled or exhausted.
Her.Truth [01:02:23] No, I feel good. I don’t feel exhausted. I'm good. Okay.
Brian [01:02:30] I want to talk a little bit about that person that you left behind.
Her.Truth [01:02:34] Mm hmm.
Brian [01:02:34] What part of you did get left behind besides some of your family relationships that we talked? But what? And maybe you want to talk about some of your beliefs or personalities or one of the things that you shed yourself off say, I don't need that anymore.
Her.Truth [01:02:48] Well, just the stressed-out mom. I don't think that’ll ever be gone, but the mom that has to keep the image. The mom that has to, my kids are doing this thing like, and just even the wife. My husband's even he like even a month after, he's like, I am more drawn to, than I was before. Because the thing is, like, you're just so scared. You're so scared because there's so many rules and I'm a lot freer with my family. I guess it's just I don't, I really don't care what people think. I don't. Which is I do in some areas than in this area. It's not my world anymore. And leaving that, I just- I'm not answering your question because I don’t remember what it was.
Brian [01:03:54] No, that is fantastic. The person you left behind.
Her.Truth [01:03:54] I tell my husband; I want to be myself. I've always wanted to be myself. There are things that, I'm a little bit of an earthy hippie. I've been I've always like those types of that's just been myself. I think I've always let myself leak out. I've always tried, but the self I left behind is really just the I know everything and don't look. This is the true self and that was so much of myself. Now that it's gone, I want more of that. I'm glad that part is gone.
Brian [01:04:44] Find your true self. Shed that parts that wasn’t. Like the sculptor say, you find what you want in the stone and you just chip away the parts that aren't it.
Her.Truth [01:04:53] Right. Right.
Brian [01:04:54] That's what you're doing is just finding your true self and saying not who you told you were and or who you should be or be like me or them or be this way.
Her.Truth [01:05:04] Yes. And being a young woman in the church, you're told who you are. We are daughters of our Heavenly Father, [unintelligible 01:05:10], witness of God it will be, in all of the things. It's so long. I’m glad that we [overlapping sound 01:05:18]
Brian [01:05:19] Good job. Good job. [overlapping sound 01:05:18]
Her.Truth [01:05:20] I stood and I said it. I just said it. And you told who you are. You're told that you're a daughter of God and you’re told who you are and who your allegiances are to. It doesn't matter what you look like. The things that you like to do outside as long as word of wisdom, all of those things you do all of that. But it's just you're told who you are, who and who your allegiances are to and where you're going and your path is for you. It doesn't matter how different you try to be, you're never going to be different. You're always going to be that.
Her.Truth [01:05:58] “I have shed that and have my own authority and I don't have allegiance to an authority. I want to be myself. I want to live my life.”
Brian [01:06:15] As Glennon Doyle says, you're a cheetah. Yes, I don't know if you've read her book but we can talk about that after.
Her.Truth [01:06:21] I would love to.
Brian [01:06:23] Yes, that indoctrination again comes up. I know who I am. I know God's plan. I'll follow him in faith. I mean, how many times do you hear that? Repeated, repeated. That's who I am. That's what I am.
Her.Truth [01:06:30] I belong to the church of Jesus.
Brian [01:06:32] I think, to be fair, I'm like you. I don't want to throw rocks at people. I think they're most of the people in the church believe they're helping and they don't know any better. And a lot of the works they're doing are very, very good. They're very helpful. They are. They're there for a lot of people. And they give a sense of purpose and direction. Whether that's the right direction or purpose for everyone. Highly questionable. It just flat out isn't.
Brian [01:07:06] “But I think the people in the church, for the most part, are trying to do good things and that's the painful part of it.”
Brian [01:07:14] You've used the C word a couple of times to talk about the church. C-U-L-T.
Her.Truth [01:07:22] In my post? Oh, yes.
Brian [01:07:26] How do you feel about that? Is that what this is?
Her.Truth [01:07:29] Well, for me, yes, I think it is. I know it's like it's one of those things that it's such a terrible word, because I know I would take personal offense to that. People would see that because it's like now I can I'm not because for me, cults were so different. you see the extreme ones, Heaven's Gate. I grew up with that.
Brian [01:07:59] Banners of heaven. Is that a cult?
Her.Truth [01:08:00] Absolutely.
Brian [01:08:01] It shows right there.
Her.Truth [01:08:02] It is.
Brian [01:08:04] But you don't see it in that perspective when you're inside.
Her.Truth [01:08:07] you don't see it. I think because, it's even the wolves in sheep's clothing, we're told, that's exactly what it is. The cult is some is something that doesn't let you ask questions outside of it. When you start to talk about it and when you're, you have somebody who's giving you direction, then you follow this leader and all of those things in and you can't leave without your dignity intact. When you leave, you lose. I grew up in a cult within a cult. My family was that way. You are redirected. It's enmeshed. You don't talk to other people who are saying bad things about our family because they're lying. Those are outsiders.
I grew up with that mentality. It is and it's not to say that they're bad people. They're like you said, they're good people in it. It's just people trying to do it is right. But the church lays claim to goodness and it just is like, look at all of the good things that we are doing. We are good people. We serve. We do all of the in that that happens outside of the church. When you're inside the church because you're in such a bubble, you don't see that other people are doing those same things in the church is not laying claim to everything that is good.
Brian [01:09:43] “I don't think anybody inside a cult can see it as a cult. I think everybody who leaves it immediately recognizes it.”
Her.Truth [01:09:53] Yes.
Brian [01:09:55] By however you want to define.
Her.Truth [01:09:57] Yes.
Brian [01:09:59] What have you read or listened to or studied that has helped with your deconstruction?
Her.Truth [01:10:09] Well I haven't read a lot because to be completely honest, reading was one of the things that was really hard for me. Because the church, the Scriptures were like. The church, my family was like, if you don't have time to read your scriptures, you shouldn't have time to read other things. And so, I just didn’t read.
Brian [01:10:35] Have you read Harry Potter?
Her.Truth [01:10:36] But I have started and I educated. And there was a book by Terry Westover. And that wasn't even in my deconstruction. That was in my family deconstruction. She also grew up in a very fundamentalist type of Mormon. We say fundamentalists, lot of people think polygamous, but fundamentalist is like going back to the fundamentals of the church. Meaning just very more extreme, very strict, following a lot of the original doctrine, all the original rules, and a lot of people who don't like change. That's what I grew up with a lot too. And so, reading that helps me to realize that it was a thing.
Also, I'm halfway through, “No Man Knows My History”. And that's a big giant of a book to come down to. But, my goodness, it's like it's really reading the beginnings of a cult leader. And I honest, I know Joseph Smith was my mother. And the thing is, I can see him through human eyes. And but he did some really terrible things in trying to perpetuate his own ego. And he hurt a lot of people along the way. And in the whitewashing of it, like, oh my gosh, I grew up with the Joseph Smith story of him, that movie, the animated.
Brian [01:12:19] Oh, right, right.
Her.Truth [01:12:20] The living scriptures. Okay. So how he wouldn't even drink alcohol. And up until a year ago, that was my Joseph Smith. And as I read, no one man knows my history, it takes the other angle.
Brian [01:12:34] There's another angle?
Her.Truth [01:12:35] Oh, my goodness. There's another angle-
Brian [01:12:37] There’s the approved version and then nothing else.
Her.Truth [01:12:39] But it's actually real. That's critical thinking.
Brian [01:12:45] Not allowed in a cult.
Her.Truth [01:12:46] No. So, he's like, he's this, I don't know, ten years old maybe when he has this part of his leg that needs to be cut out. And in the video that kids are given, he’s like, I'm well enough off or whatever. I won't take the alcohol or whatever and in “No Man Knows My History”, basically says that he was so in pain, I don't want to use the word crazy, but he was a kid, okay? And he was like, no, don't give me anything. They couldn't give him anything. And then I was like, when I read that, I was like, no, it wasn't that he was saying no to alcohol.
Because here's the thing. I have an eight-year-old who has some major dental issues and he wouldn't even drink Kool-Aid. Okay. And so that was the thing where I was like, I could have very well like gone years down the road and be like, yes, my eight-year-old, he knew how bad Kool-Aid was for you. Even at eight years old. We had to tie him down. We had to mummy him just to numb him. He wasn't even in pain yet. It was just too numb him. To put that eight-year-old in the context of that, that's very age appropriate for a ten-year-old to refuse anything when they're in pain. And to say he wouldn't take alcohol is just trying to, it's just not true. And so, it was just-
Brian [01:14:16] It’s a good story though, you have to admit.
Her.Truth [01:14:18] Oh, my goodness. I mean, maybe I should tell my son's children that, your dad didn't like, he knew that Kool-Aid was so bad for you, even at the age of eight. So now just let it go. Yes. Okay. Now, instead of saying no, your dad was so terrible, he thought [unintelligible 01:14:37] It makes you just think in a different way and not a bad way. You're just like, oh, my goodness, that makes so much more sense. Yes.
Brian [01:14:52] So when you actually put on, and realize and consider it logically and use critical thought, oh yes, there's an explanation that makes much more sense.
Her.Truth [01:15:00] Yes.
Brian [01:15:02] I don't want this to be well, how many times growing up and how many different ways as a young woman and a woman in the church were you told you're not good enough? Or less than?
Her.Truth [01:15:16] Well, gosh, it was really just. A lot of things to deal with dating. I think there's a lot of that just the chewed gum. If you had kissed a boy…
Brian [01:15:31] The purity culture.
Her.Truth [01:15:32] Purity culture was hard because I dated. I was a good girl, but kissing was a thing like…
Brian [01:15:46] Did you ever feel like you needed to repent for kissing?
Her.Truth [01:15:48] Oh my goodness, I went to the bishop to tell him about it. I felt I didn't take the sacrament. Because I kissed a boy. I mean, not just kiss. Kiss a little longer than 10 seconds. And I held on to that. Tt was so crazy because it was my freshman year in high school, and I had a couple boyfriends, but I like went on a huge dry spell because I had been like I was friends with kids in the seminary group or whatever and I was called chewed gum.
A boy, I remember at a football game said, I know what you've done. What did I do? And so, I felt so terrible. In my junior year, it took my whole junior year, I went and talked to my bishop about it and he was, I got some really good bishops. He was good. He said, you're okay. I think you've suffered enough. It's okay.
I did, I suffered. I had a seminary teacher. I think it was a joke that he said that he didn't kiss his wife until over the altar. And a lot of kids took that literally. But as I found out later, he was a jerk because she wasn't his wife till after. But he didn't explain that. He just let it ride.
Brian [01:17:18] And people took that to heart because he's a seminary teacher.
Her.Truth [01:17:21] Absolutely, they took it to heart. And a lot of boys that age, they wouldn't kiss girls. They're like, I'm not going to kiss anybody because Brother Smith didn't. But as a young woman, it was just, the purity culture…and I was going to be a mom and I wanted to be a mom, but my job was to multiply and replenish the earth and to stay home with my children. And that was really when I knew I had to be.
Brian [01:17:53] Both of which are very excellent choices, very worthy choices if it's a choice.
Her.Truth [01:17:58] Yes. And I loved it. I've been home with my children. “But to know that you can't explore yourself, you lose yourself, you just do.” It's not a bad thing. It's not a bad thing for sure. We don't have a choice.
Brian [01:18:17] So I asked you that question and we talked about the person you left behind. Tell me about the person now and who she is and why she is good enough. Brag a little bit. Be bold here. Tell us how you've learned.
Her.Truth [01:18:40] Well, that's just a hard thing, cause I'm still very broken in a lot of ways.
Her.Truth [01:18:48] “I guess the person I am now is, I'm hopeful. I don't think I'm anything. That's really hard for me because I’m still not confident in a lot of my ability to do a lot of things, and I'm still healing from the conditioning that I'm not good enough.”
The conditioning that because not only do the church teach you that you're never going to be enough. I was taught that in my own family. I was given the characteristic, portrayed as somebody that I wasn’t by my mom. I kissed boys. So, it was easy. There’s a lot of things I'm healing from. I'm hopeful for myself, but I'm more hopeful for my kids. And I guess I'm healing myself as I'm trying to be a good mom. I know that I answered the question, but I'm not there yet.
Brian [01:20:10] Nobody's there yet. But you're working there.
Her.Truth [01:20:13] I'm working there in myself, I guess. I don't know. I don't know. I'm trying to find myself. How about that?
Brian [01:20:21] So you're a seeker?
Her.Truth [01:20:22] I'm a seeker.
Brian [01:20:23] You're a healer?
Her.Truth [01:20:24] Yes. I think I'm still healing. I know who I am, but still in Mormon country. It’s too hard and I work in a job but I still just can't.
Brian [01:20:39] We didn't even talk about that aspect of it. You got your family, church, and now the job thing is the triple whammy. That’s a triple whammy for sure.
Her.Truth [01:20:48] “I just have to find a place where I can be myself or just learn to be myself in those places that I don't think I can be myself.” And I think I just brought it with me.
Brian [01:21:00] Well, you got, what, four decades worth of experience telling you otherwise. So now you're trying to correct. You don't turn around a ship like that that's been going. That's a lot of momentum to carry you for a long time and it fights you on it.
I want to just to tell our listeners, I want to just go through some of the hashtags that you put on some of your posts. Can I tell them the listener, your podcast name?
Her.Truth [01:21:26] Oh, sure. Okay.
Brian [01:21:27] If you're interested, you can find her on Instagram at Her Truth Be Told. It’s her dot truth dot be told. And some of the hashtags that she uses are ex-Mormon, Ex-Mormon women, post-Mormon, I got out, Mormon stories, Ex-Mormon wife, Narcissistic abuse, Mormon cult, NPD abuse, NPD abuse survivor, childhood abuse, Ex-LDS mom. That’s a lot.
Her.Truth [01:22:02] Yes, it's hard. I don't know. It's hard to call yourself an ex-Mormon. Because that brings with it like a lot of the X-[unintelligible 01:22:10] stuff. It’s one of those negative things but it's that's how you find your people. And the NPD, that's narcissistic personality disorder and so, I don't even like to call them a platform, my account is geared really toward surviving religious trauma and narcissistic abuse. I think those two things are a lot of the same. For me, it's about the same. And I have some followers, followers who are like, I'm not an ex-Mormon, but I understand this narcissistic abuse. My mother was the same way. And it all just goes hand in hand, so.
Brian [01:23:00] Well, it's very beautifully written, very deep, and meaningful and personal. And you're very bold in sharing it. My comments, I read them all again just to prepare for this. But my thoughts were heartbreaking, raw, relatable, devastating, inspiring human condition and courageous. I think that's who you are and I think it shows through. Thank you so much for sharing your story with me and for whoever else is out there that needs to hear this. This has been very healing. I wish you well on your journey and I hope we keep in touch. Anything else you want to say before we sign up?
Her.Truth [01:23:44] No. Thank you for the opportunity. I hope it helps somebody else. That's my goal, I guess. I needed a safe place to land and I'm still not there. But hearing other people's stories and knowing you're not alone…so I hope somebody else-
Her.Truth [01:23:44] “I don't want anybody else to go through this. If you have, just want you to know that there's others. There are others.”
Brian [01:24:12] Thank you. And you can do it. As hard as it is and as painful as it is, you can do it.
Her.Truth [01:24:17] Yep.
Brian [01:24:18] Thank you so much. That was fantastic. You are amazing.
Her.Truth [01:24:28] Thank you.
