Comparing vs. Cheering: Our Expectations - Their Self-Worth

SYK 127 Jaynee - Part 2 Final.mp3

Jaynee [00:00:04] I am going to love them free. And whole and as is. And maybe that's where I'm more understanding with my parents because they didn't know that these are things in your life that you get to choose.

Brian [00:00:20] What goals do we set for ourselves to be remarkable, and what do those milestones say about who we are and what we value? In the second part of Janey's three part series, we talk about how the goals and values we aspire to have a direct impact on our closest relationships, especially in communicating what we believe is important to our children. Consider this as you listen to today's conversation. How do our choice of heroes and goals impact those around us who may have different aspirations or values? How well do we help those around us discover their own values and set their own independent course? This is one of the many areas where I did not do a good job as a parent. At the time, I was stuck in the binary thinking of one true path. I was beating myself up for falling short and wore blinders of exact obedience to the singular prescribed way. I certainly worked hard at instilling the same system in my kids in spite of my unskilled parenting, my kids eventually found their own beautiful path. I regret the many battles where I tried forcing them onto someone else's foreign path. Even more, I feel that I rob them of the wonderful gifts they could have given the world if I had been more supportive of helping them find their genuine path much sooner. Enjoy today's episode and we'll see you again next week for part three. So do you know your topics you want to talk about on this next part?

Jaynee [00:01:31] We were saying about the having.

[00:01:33] The choice and the need and the church, you know, Big.

Jaynee [00:01:37] C church in the culture is different. Like I just think there's so I remember going to the airport with.

Jaynee [00:01:44] My daughter and we were picking my son and there were it was a missionary day and then.

Jaynee [00:01:50] We're coming home and I am just like, I'm the person that I watch.

Jaynee [00:01:54] Like the golden buzzer, like auditions.

Jaynee [00:01:57] Right? And just because I am enough of an empath that, like, I feel that positive excitement, I'm so happy for them. And I just love and in my kids old joke, like, are you watching your golden buzzers? And like, I just put that loop on. I'm just happiness.

Jaynee [00:02:12] And joy and I'm so.

Jaynee [00:02:15] Like, that feels really good to me. And that same feeling you feel there for the moms right now and the family has signs. And I just love that energy of, like, returning home.

Jaynee [00:02:25] Yeah.

Jaynee [00:02:25] And I said, oh, let's wait here and watch a couple of these before we go.

Jaynee [00:02:30] And, and.

Jaynee [00:02:30] We watched this boy come and.

Jaynee [00:02:32] The mom ran over and my daughter leaned over and said, I'm so sorry, Mom, that you're never going to have that.

Jaynee [00:02:38] And it hit me so odd because I it's like this again, light bulb moment for me where I realize.

Jaynee [00:02:45] That my children are associating like my love for them with with resumés and me being able to bare my, you know, all.

Jaynee [00:02:52] My kids got married in the temple, all my kids on a mission like right. And I just stopped.

Jaynee [00:02:57] In that moment and was like, I.

Jaynee [00:02:59] Love you free as is whole who you are. I love you and you don't ever like this like a that's not about me. Between that missionary and God like his mother is happy to see him, but to be like it's her accomplishment. Like that's what you kids think. But like, they robbed me of some mother award, and I just was so, like.

Jaynee [00:03:21] Done with that where I was like, I am going to love them free and whole and as.

Jaynee [00:03:26] Is. And maybe that's where I'm.

Jaynee [00:03:28] More understanding with my parents because I if they didn't know that.

Jaynee [00:03:32] That you don't these aren't these are things in your life that you get to choose. Just like I chose to join. They get to make their own.

Jaynee [00:03:39] Choice and I get to love them. Right.

Brian [00:03:41] I know. Honestly, I can think of very few families that put that pressure on their kids and say, I will only love you if you check all these boxes for whatever, whatever background, whatever those boxes are. But it's human nature for the kids to feel that that's the case. And I'm not sure that the church does that any better or worse than anybody else. But the kids definitely feel that. And I'm wondering, what is it about parenting that makes them feel like that's conditional when most of the parents and I know that doesn't matter. Yeah, I mean, it does matter, but they don't want that to be be the thing that matters. Right? No, it means something to them that you get your young women's medallion and that you graduate seminary. And those are important things. But then you didn't climb the highest rung and ring the bell and do all of these other things that, you know you, don't you? We love you a little less. Mm hmm. I don't know many people where that's the case.

Jaynee [00:04:33] Sure, but. Right. I definitely think that message is.

Brian [00:04:35] But the kids, the kids.

Jaynee [00:04:36] The kids feel it. Okay, I see what I'm saying. Yeah, I'm.

Brian [00:04:38] Not saying the parents say that or the church says that or they're taught that. It's just there's something about that that is just always there with a heaviness when I don't think anybody that's involved wants that to be the thing. I think that even your young women's leaders, that meant so much to you at the time, if you told them you were leaving the church or you're not getting married in the temple or whatever, they would have still been there for you, right? That wasn't what it was about. I think a lot of people feel that that's what it is and they feel that pressure and that guilt. And I'm not sure what it is that creates that.

Jaynee [00:05:10] Yeah, well, my my oldest son.

Jaynee [00:05:13] He had basketball.

Jaynee [00:05:14] And was.

Jaynee [00:05:15] You know, scholarships and wanted to go on and play and in college.

Jaynee [00:05:19] And and and so.

Jaynee [00:05:21] There was.

Jaynee [00:05:21] There was this shot that he made.

Jaynee [00:05:23] Right. And he's going to kill me even. He's going to be like, really? You brought up the shot again. You brought that up. Exactly. But here's the point. It was this. I called it like a Rudy moment, like it just half, you know, a couple steps from half court, last seconds, rival team this they rushed the court and carry him back in on shoulders, chanting as it was that moment in time. Right. And I remember thinking later, if I to cheer for him and be.

Jaynee [00:05:50] The mom in that moment, then.

Jaynee [00:05:51] I get to cheer for him in every other moment. Cool. Like you don't get to pick and choose, right? He's my son. Like, so if not, when he came off that airport, I was so happy to see him and cheer for him and be his mom in that moment because he's my child, just like when he made the shot, or if he would have missed it. And it just really hit me that that idea of like, I only want to be his mom then when he makes the shot, but I can't be his.

Jaynee [00:06:17] Mom when he chooses not to go on a mission like. Right, right, right.

Jaynee [00:06:19] No, I'm going to cheer for you. Right. With whatever is going to in your life that makes you happy.

Brian [00:06:24] Like, but I would. I would suggest that maybe he'd. Doesn't feel that way. He felt felt really good when everybody was cheering for them. But if he's not going to walk off the plane from a return mission, he's going to say, I'm sorry, ma'am. You don't get that moment. He's going to feel like he let you down. Yeah. And that's not the case. You've just admitted that is the case. And I believe that you believe that that's the case, but that's not how they're going to feel.

Jaynee [00:06:44] Yeah. No. And that was the.

Jaynee [00:06:45] Conversation with them where they were like, we have this religious trauma, like where they don't feel and.

Jaynee [00:06:50] These are two kids that like champion school record breaking like they did so many things. But to them, to feel like they're still lacking.

Jaynee [00:06:59] Like they're not enough. Like they're not.

Jaynee [00:07:00] Ever going to be good enough.

Brian [00:07:02] To have won the Super Bowl yet. So, yes, mom is sitting on the sideline waiting for that to happen.

Jaynee [00:07:06] Yeah. So it perfect thing to bring up though because it's me. It's it's that pattern continuing.

Jaynee [00:07:12] If I don't try.

Jaynee [00:07:13] To figure out how to.

Jaynee [00:07:14] Love them whole and free of.

Jaynee [00:07:16] Those.

Jaynee [00:07:16] Expectations, just.

Jaynee [00:07:18] Like I felt like I was never going to live.

Jaynee [00:07:20] Up to what my brother could accomplish. I was never going to be good enough to.

Jaynee [00:07:24] Earn and achieve this love that I had to work for.

Jaynee [00:07:27] I don't want them to feel that way because of the church. Right. I want I want it to be a positive in their lives, not something that holds them back from loving themselves and feeling my love. Yeah.

Brian [00:07:37] You know, maybe we do too good of a job of saying that is a positive in your life to go off and serve the Lord for two years. And we do do such a good job of promoting that. Say what a wonderful thing that is to do. And if you think about it is, that's a wonderful thing to do. But if you don't do it, then that's all a negative. It's like, no, if you don't do it, that's fine. Go do something else. Yeah, right. That that's okay too. That's just as good, right? But I think you get the message if this is a really good thing than not doing it as just is equally as a bad thing. And it's like a no, it's just different. But I don't know. There's something that I might have to think on that a little bit more because I'm not quite sure why that's the case, because I think they really do feel that.

Jaynee [00:08:15] Oh, yeah.

Brian [00:08:15] And they feel shamed for not giving you that opportunity and giving whatever reward that you get from having or being a mother of return missionary or father of or missionary or of winning the super of a parent of a Super Bowl champion or not. Right.

Jaynee [00:08:30] But aren't we kind of robbing them of.

Jaynee [00:08:32] Their own achievement.

Jaynee [00:08:33] When we do that? That makes sense. Like, you still have to think about it, but it's almost like taking credit for it. I just remember thinking when she said that to me at the airport, like the mom didn't. I mean, you raise a child or you help with their mission like all of that, but ultimately that those choices like winning the Super Bowl, my mom didn't go to I mean, she may have driven him to practice two days, but like my brother, his talent, his effort.

Brian [00:08:56] He was there every season. Yes, he was there off season.

Jaynee [00:08:59] Yes. But yet, as a mom, it was like you couldn't have a conversation with that with my mom without her telling you about my brother. You could not. And she's proud. So which is a good thing? So proud. She was so like a mate. She was.

Jaynee [00:09:13] A champion. Yeah.

Jaynee [00:09:14] And and so but within the church context and you can see where it could develop to be.

Jaynee [00:09:20] This like, well if I don't these boxes, then I let down my parents and I just remember thinking that I don't want to continue, I don't want to continue the cycle of them questioning their value.

Brian [00:09:32] But how much of a spotlight is on the Super Bowl champion versus the sixth grade or the second grade teacher? Hmm. Right. It's like that's they don't feel like they've accomplished something yet. Like every day. I mean, I know several teachers and that's it's it's a Super Bowl and going through.

Jaynee [00:09:48] The last no loss really.

Brian [00:09:50] But they don't buy any of that because there are so many of them and it's not a big deal or whatever. And because the Super Bowl, you build up this giant pyramid, it's really easy to point the spotlight at the top. And the person that gets there clearly deserved it when you know, there's questions whether they did or not. Right. I mean, maybe the second place team was actually the better team, but they. Anyway.

Jaynee [00:10:08] Those are fighting words. I know.

Brian [00:10:09] I know. I know. I know.

Jaynee [00:10:10] I'm here to dial that back.

Brian [00:10:12] I'm not I'm not afraid. I'm not afraid to get myself into trouble.

Jaynee [00:10:15] No, I see your point.

Jaynee [00:10:17] When I was we haven't I was a.

Jaynee [00:10:20] Remarkable woman of the year.

Jaynee [00:10:22] 2020. And I'm so honored and it's such an amazing thing. But I remember in one of the interviews saying there are so many women that do.

Jaynee [00:10:31] So what I do, plus their.

Jaynee [00:10:33] Husbands just didn't nominate them. Yeah, like you just don't know about them yet. And that.

Jaynee [00:10:37] Was one of the.

Jaynee [00:10:38] Things, you know, I.

Jaynee [00:10:40] Put together like a.

Jaynee [00:10:41] Conference for. There's one in every state, right? Remarkable women. And we went to New York and then we went to Chicago. Next year, we're going to New Orleans. And and I.

Jaynee [00:10:48] I feel so strongly because.

Jaynee [00:10:50] About keeping this connection with these women that have been.

Jaynee [00:10:52] Chosen for their service.

Jaynee [00:10:54] And the.

Jaynee [00:10:54] Things they do in their community.

Jaynee [00:10:56] But more than that, just women in general.

Jaynee [00:10:59] You're remarkable, too. Like, let's recognize you. Bake bread. That's an art. Yes, that is a skill. I do not. I buy everything like that is an art and a skill and a talent. And that is remarkable. Yeah, there are so many remarkable women.

Jaynee [00:11:12] And doing amazing things that aren't being recognized. And it's.

Jaynee [00:11:15] There's a continuum that I just feel so.

Jaynee [00:11:18] Like I don't want women to compare and compete and I want them to lift and build each other. And comparison is like the death of. Self-worth.

Jaynee [00:11:27] Like it just is really.

Jaynee [00:11:29] Something I see so often where it's tragic and that, you know, I was comparing myself to my brother, which was completely unfair and not not what I believe. If you asked my mom, she would even say exactly like she wouldn't fully understand. I think for someone that doesn't say I love you to be so.

Jaynee [00:11:46] Overjoyed.

Jaynee [00:11:47] In that moment for him to.

Jaynee [00:11:49] Let it slip. Yeah, that's how it came out. And I can.

Jaynee [00:11:53] See that now, but at the time, I took it in a different way. Right.

Brian [00:11:58] So. Or you just had a realization that had been laying under the surface for a long time. Yeah. That it just took an extreme, you know, circumstance to to bring it to forefront. Yeah.

Jaynee [00:12:07] And and the remarkable.

Jaynee [00:12:09] Woman thing taught me a lot in those same, you know, obviously it's not a Super Bowl, but it.

Jaynee [00:12:14] It definitely.

Jaynee [00:12:15] Made it so that I had to deal with some of the the negative that came from that. And I remember thinking like, I'm being recognized.

Jaynee [00:12:24] For service.

Jaynee [00:12:25] And for overcoming something and.

Jaynee [00:12:27] And I really appreciated.

Jaynee [00:12:28] It. But I also realized that it it kind of sets you up for to be judged and to.

Jaynee [00:12:33] Be, you know, if you put you're on a pedestal, there's a.

Jaynee [00:12:35] Long way to fall. And and it looks like you're looking down at everybody.

Jaynee [00:12:39] So, yeah, it just.

Jaynee [00:12:41] It just makes me want to work harder to be the kind of woman that that supports, that's genuinely happy for other women success and not them. I you know, I always say to young girls like, no amount of calling someone ugly makes you pretty. That's another one of.

Jaynee [00:12:56] Those, like and that's.

Jaynee [00:12:58] How I felt about this, where I was shocked at like the negative from it when I really like sincerely my heart was in this place of like I felt so grateful that I was recognized. But I immediately tried to make it about something to help organize other women and to encourage other women to to understand how they're remarkable and to put their passion forward and and to love themselves for what they do not. And as you.

Jaynee [00:13:23] Said, you're my highlight reel to your first day, your blooper reel.

Jaynee [00:13:28] Like, no, it's not compare at all and just and see the best in each other. And, and so that was a really hard realization for me. Yeah. Yeah. And I, there was a, someone had made a video of watching me when the Yeah. And they were videoing themselves watching it and pretending like they were like gagging like and that got sent to people and got sent to me.

Jaynee [00:13:51] And I remember thinking like I had a lot.

Jaynee [00:13:54] Of thoughts about it, but the.

Jaynee [00:13:55] Hardest part was.

Jaynee [00:13:56] Just that, that like the effort that went into kind of mocking something and trying, you know, crabs in a barrel, like tearing someone down, like, yeah, I don't want to be that for women now and.

Brian [00:14:07] Pulling someone down doesn't necessarily mean you're calling.

Jaynee [00:14:09] Out. Nope. And I just think to the.

Jaynee [00:14:11] Amount of like internal, like, hurt people. Hurt people.

Jaynee [00:14:14] Yes.

Jaynee [00:14:15] You really have some things that.

Jaynee [00:14:17] Yeah, I just don't feel that way.

Jaynee [00:14:19] I feel the hurt in my life. Like I want it. I want to use it for good. I want to figure out my passion and have a purpose, make a plan.

Jaynee [00:14:27] And like I just that's how I am.

Jaynee [00:14:29] And so it was really hard for me to kind of see the negativity and it I'm not on social like Facebook or Instagram, Twitter and and it's thought of going back to that. I always think about video or I'm like, Oh, that opens me up to the negativity.

Jaynee [00:14:46] Even when.

Jaynee [00:14:46] You're doing something good for women, right? The negative.

Brian [00:14:49] Right? Yeah. Okay. So that brings you back to an earlier thought that I had. So you're going you're joining young women's when you're 12 or 14 and you're getting these amazing young women leaders that are putting on aprons and helping you bake cookies. But instead you get the advice Chanel would give, which is people don't think about you ever.

Jaynee [00:15:08] Well, which.

Brian [00:15:09] One of those realities wins out? And so there's just a little discrepancy between those two, right? Both are realities and both are amazing. But they both do mean, mean two different things. And I know part of your talk was a lot on pain. Life is pain was not necessarily what a 12 year old wants to hear when she wants to bake cookies. Yeah. When she just needs someone to, you know. Yeah. But are we hiding it by putting frosting over the top and sprinkles or.

Jaynee [00:15:37] I think there was some of that when you were talking a great question.

Jaynee [00:15:41] When you were talking earlier and you said like, where are we getting this from? Like this? The family and I wanted to say The Cosby Show, because I like how videos of my family, you know, dressing the kids up in costumes and doing these like so and we still.

Brian [00:15:56] Okay, I remember that episode. Absolutely great episode.

Jaynee [00:16:00] That's what I got it from because I.

Jaynee [00:16:01] Didn't see my family hanging out together.

Jaynee [00:16:04] We didn't have game night like we didn't do that stuff right. But I saw that on TV.

Jaynee [00:16:09] And thought, Oh, that's how families are supposed.

Jaynee [00:16:11] To be.

Brian [00:16:11] Oh yeah.

Jaynee [00:16:12] And so my kids, they crack up because, you know, the service projects.

Jaynee [00:16:16] We did the the skits.

Jaynee [00:16:17] And the those silly things Christmas Eve talent show, one year lip sync the next year like this is about where they aren't we're. Realizing that it was.

Jaynee [00:16:26] Me going for that need of like, oh, I don't know what this is supposed to look like. Here's an example.

Jaynee [00:16:33] I'll do that even though that was like the most extreme. That's what I see that.

Jaynee [00:16:39] A lot in myself. Like when I look at as a parent or as a person that like, I'm I'm pull it. Dr. Manson, Susan Manson is this incredible leadership for women. You know, I remember when I first graduated with my Ph.D. and I was, you know, looking to do this new career. I was looking at, okay, what am I going to do out here? Print it out. And I.

Jaynee [00:17:00] Still have.

Jaynee [00:17:01] It.

Jaynee [00:17:01] And I talk to her about this. I printed out her CV, which at the time was like 20 pages.

Jaynee [00:17:06] It's now probably 150, right? She is so constantly putting out research.

Jaynee [00:17:10] And doing amazing things for women, but I printed out her CV and I copied.

Jaynee [00:17:14] It as much as I could. And then I looked and was like, I need to fill.

Jaynee [00:17:18] What she has here. Like it was a pathway.

Jaynee [00:17:20] Yeah, yeah. It was something to go on. And I.

Jaynee [00:17:23] Think that we do this can.

Jaynee [00:17:24] Do the same thing with parenting, figuring out like.

Jaynee [00:17:27] Hey, here's what I.

Jaynee [00:17:28] Want this to look like in the end and work our way back to like, how did they get there?

Jaynee [00:17:32] And I copied her CV and, you know, met her.

Jaynee [00:17:35] Many years later and told her.

Jaynee [00:17:37] And shared with her. And it was like she just think that's another.

Jaynee [00:17:40] Form of picking the mothering that you need. Like I needed that in my career and I needed a guide and I found that and I think I found.

Jaynee [00:17:49] The Cosby Show like that. You, you kind of fill.

Jaynee [00:17:52] In these empty spaces. And so.

Jaynee [00:17:55] Maybe it's a little bit of.

Jaynee [00:17:56] Both. Thing I don't like.

Jaynee [00:17:58] Is I before would try to please the.

Jaynee [00:18:01] Person to to be loved. And the Coco Chanel quote for me is that I'm not I wasn't about Dr. Madsen. It wasn't.

Jaynee [00:18:08] To try to.

Jaynee [00:18:09] Win.

Jaynee [00:18:09] Over achiever or her. I wasn't I had never met her. It was me being.

Jaynee [00:18:14] The best person that I wanted to be and not you can't be what you can't.

Jaynee [00:18:18] See. I couldn't see it yet. And so I followed a guide.

Jaynee [00:18:22] I used that as a guide it. Right. I didn't care what she thought about me. I didn't know her. But I wanted to think well of myself. Like I wanted to be someone that I looked up to someday. Yeah. And that was following that guide.

Jaynee [00:18:35] So I don't know if that, if I'll have to like ponder that more, but to.

Jaynee [00:18:39] Me I, there's like a healthy dose of both and maybe that it's on a continuum of like, you know, wanting and needing love connection. I, I needed that and I, that I, I found it in different places. Not all good, some bad. But I also got to a place where I could fill the void myself, like I loved myself. And that when I met my husband. We're a second. We're. Yeah, we're a blended family. The Brady Bunch, three each had three kids and it's just craziness. But I, I wrote all these things down that I wanted in somebody, and it was a long list.

Brian [00:19:12] 20 page.

Jaynee [00:19:13] Oh, gosh, you.

Brian [00:19:14] Need to fill this out.

Jaynee [00:19:15] Yes, I just had all these like, you know, and I just thought, I'm going to just put everything. But what he didn't what people didn't realize before.

Jaynee [00:19:22] That was I had gone I was going to this I'm going to the temple with women that were single once a month, the different temples, so that we could all, you know, have go together like a whole other episode.

Jaynee [00:19:32] But but after.

Jaynee [00:19:34] One time we were like at IHOP or something and, and we were eating and the women were talking about dating and it was like, Oh, I really want someone that's educated and he needs to be. And she hadn't finished school and another woman was like, he.

Jaynee [00:19:47] Needs to have six.

Jaynee [00:19:48] Pack and abs and I'm exaggerating the whole thing. But she was £300.

Jaynee [00:19:52] Yeah, everybody wanted.

Jaynee [00:19:54] What they weren't. I want.

Jaynee [00:19:55] Him to be.

Jaynee [00:19:55] Debt free and she's, you know, getting help.

Jaynee [00:19:58] From the church or whatever it was, like this big contradiction. And I was sitting there thinking, hold on. Like they're filling the holes with people.

Jaynee [00:20:06] Yeah.

Jaynee [00:20:07] Of what they're.

Jaynee [00:20:07] Missing. And I think that's what changed for me is I made this list and I was like, if this is what I want, then I need to be this and we'll recognize each other. Will will match up because I am going to be everything I'm asking for.

Jaynee [00:20:21] So I did the whole I got debt free I which was huge for me at the time.

Jaynee [00:20:26] And you know, being.

Jaynee [00:20:28] I just for a year, like I was like getting myself healthy and happy. I was going to the temple with women and not focused on that. I finally got to this place where I was like, I don't really care if I ever meet somebody. And I remember the shock of my girlfriend being like, Don't say that. That's what needed to happen for me. Because I think that one of the.

Jaynee [00:20:45] Worst lines in movie history is that you complete me.

Jaynee [00:20:49] Because how about you're a complete.

Jaynee [00:20:50] Person and a whole person.

Jaynee [00:20:52] And then they're a whole person and then you take on the world together. Yeah, but to expect somebody to fill in your gaps.

Jaynee [00:20:59] And holes and make you right.

Jaynee [00:21:01] Right. It seems very unfair and very much.

Jaynee [00:21:04] Setting yourself up for things we've been talking about.

Brian [00:21:06] Yeah, yeah. So we've talked about three different things there that I've seen that all pieces, I think one is filling your own gaps. You're filling the needs, right, that you never had met. Right. That needs to happen. One is emulating someone else that you think is successful, whether it's The Cosby Show or somebody 20. HCV and then the other one is finding out who you are and being that person. I think there's just kind of an interesting blend of all three of those, and I don't think you can go full tilt in any one of those directions. And B, I'm not sure if that would be a successful approach. I think you kind of need to address all three of those. To your last point, my wife has this interesting analogy that she says, you need to you need to keep your own boat. Too often when you go out to the beach and you see somebody come by and they've got this great boat and they've got these great abs, and you want to go with them and you get on their boat and you get out there and they decide they don't want you on your boat anymore. Now what do you have?

Jaynee [00:22:00] Oh, wow.

Brian [00:22:01] And off the side, you go and they're fine. They still have their boat. They're still going. And her thing is, you need to keep your own boat. And if you want to go someplace together with them, that's great. Go do that. Have a good time or whatever. But don't ever give up your boat. Your boat needs to be your boat. Otherwise you find yourself out there with all of these needs that you could have taken along your way. But it was just whatever, for whatever reason, you just you got in somebody else's bone, thought that was going to be okay.

Jaynee [00:22:28] I love it. You know, I taught at Weber State for or we had talked about that earlier, like for four years. And one of the quotes on my syllabus, it said, you know, don't never grow a never grow wishbone child where your backbone should be. And I think that's that, you know, oh, I'm.

Jaynee [00:22:46] Going to sail away into the sunset. Right? And it's like, wait, you.

Jaynee [00:22:49] Need to you need to think about the what ifs that that you know, and how many times I had to talk to girls about.

Jaynee [00:22:55] I'm not saying you're not you 19 year old that's getting married to your return missionary like and they're just so excited to sail away into the sunset cause so romantic. Yes. And but I learned.

Jaynee [00:23:07] That, you know, Davis County and Utah County are the number one and number two places in the country for women that start their education and never finish. And it's that they're sailing away. And the reality is something very different. And so I just for me, when I was teaching, I wasn't telling them what to think. I was telling them to think.

Brian [00:23:26] Yeah.

Jaynee [00:23:26] You know, for yourself.

Jaynee [00:23:28] And and.

Jaynee [00:23:29] And they think that goes back to the Coco Chanel thing that like it's not about what everybody else.

Jaynee [00:23:33] Wants. It's finding your own, meeting your own needs.

Jaynee [00:23:37] And how attractive that can be.

Brian [00:23:39] And when you build your own boat and you were in it and you were comfortable and you were complete, if somebody came along, you might go with them for a little bit or not. Yeah, it's totally your option and you get to make the call. Maybe they'll get in your boat.

Jaynee [00:23:52] Yeah, and.

Jaynee [00:23:52] I love the idea.

Jaynee [00:23:54] I my husband and I talk about this. It's ten years now and I'm like, it didn't need him. I wanted him. Yeah. And there's such a difference and needing and wanting and what that all looks like. And I just that's my hope with, with my daughter and my stepdaughters, like, just wanting them to be able to care for themselves in every way and love themselves and know that they're going to be just fine and then choose to be with somebody that, yes, they're happy with. That really is a hope for each of them.

Brian [00:24:23] Okay. We've gone over a couple of topics, but I know you had a few more that you were thinking of. There's there something you want to switch the topic to something else and do I?

Jaynee [00:24:32] It's interesting because I think that the the topics.

Jaynee [00:24:35] Of being a mom, a stepmom and and being in this culture I came from California has just been so different. And so any time I those topics are always most difficult for me to, to just.

Jaynee [00:24:48] Be.

Jaynee [00:24:48] So forthright with because I don't want to offend or hurt my family or not be grateful or any of those things. Like that's not what I want to be. But I also acknowledge that like there is this perfectionism here and this idea of creating the slide show of, you know, that.

Jaynee [00:25:07] Creates FOMO for other people and just all this.

Jaynee [00:25:09] Cultural stuff that we get caught up in that I, I think is doing a real disservice to women. And so it's been something that it's hard to see. The young girls.

Jaynee [00:25:19] Just hate themselves.

Jaynee [00:25:20] Essentially just hating themselves and wanting to project so much online and then and then their moms taking part in that as well.

Jaynee [00:25:29] And I don't know that that's.

Jaynee [00:25:31] Something that's just been disappointing in wanting to God isn't Santa Claus. And if you are a good girl and you check these boxes, you don't get everything you want at the end. So how are you going to learn to be happy? Yeah. Not getting everything you thought you you deserved and you wanted. It's not going to look like. And I just that's something that entitlement.

Jaynee [00:25:49] Or I don't even know. What do you.

Jaynee [00:25:51] Think about that? Like what is your experience with that? Because it's not that I have the answer for it. It's the question for me of how do I just seen so many people unhappy and feeling like they they signed up for something and they did some they thought it was going to equal happiness. Right. And then yeah.

Brian [00:26:08] I think it kind of goes along the same lines of building your own boat. You, you build you to the point where you don't know if you need anybody because you are complete and you may or may not find the right person. Either way, you'll be okay. But if you're expecting this other person to come in and fill all of the holes and all the gaps that you have in your life and that. That's that's how you complete someone. And I think there's a lot of disappointment there because they have a lot of holes that they need to fill of their own. And it's not going to be a fairy tale ending. You end up with a lot of holes because neither one of you came complete. If you both come complete, it's a little different. And honestly, who's complete at such an early age, right? When your brains are still developing? And I've got I had another friend on the show that she's a relationship expert and she talks about, you know, the first six months of any relationship is all hormones.

Jaynee [00:26:54] It's the cocaine high.

Brian [00:26:55] Yeah, exactly. It's it's wonderful. You don't even know the other person. You haven't even met them yet. Give it six months and you'll barely get to know them. And then you're still at such a young age where your brain hasn't developed. There's not that there's anything wrong with that. But as she puts it, those are high risk factors and a high risk factor on top of a high risk factor on her. She's not saying she's not saying don't do it. She is saying be aware that that is very high risk. It's your own boat. Figure out what you want and then look what you want. Instead of thinking that someone's going to bring you everything you need, pass that right. It's kind of again, you just build your boat and realize it's going to happen. But again, in this in this community, there's a lot of pressure on very early, very soon after a return mission or graduation or during or or you're too old, which is you laugh. It is. It's silly, it's laughable. But the idea of being 30 and single is just normal everywhere except here.

Jaynee [00:27:54] Yeah.

Brian [00:27:55] And there's so much pressure on that.

Jaynee [00:27:57] That's like, yeah, that is, that is absolutely the, the pressure point. The same as checking off the boxes of like did you go on Eagle Scout you go your mission to do.

Brian [00:28:07] Again this checklist. If I do all these things in the right order, then magic happens.

Jaynee [00:28:12] Mm hmm. But I don't think that that line of thinking allows for for people to grow and change and to become their best self and give them what you said earlier. That point is that if they're choosing that, this is what their need is and they choose it. My husband is just adore him. And I think that I used to make jokes he hates. I used to make jokes and say like.

Jaynee [00:28:33] It's like when he walks in the room, I hear like how the choir in the background in my head, you know, like I just I think that and all brag about stuff about him that is like so stupid. He gets so annoying and like, he's scored six goals and he's like teeny knowing state championship, like hockey. And I'm like, you know, I just.

Brian [00:28:49] Think, hey, six goals in a championship game is a big deal.

Jaynee [00:28:52] Pick. That's right.

Brian [00:28:53] Don't underplay that, you. I'm on his side. You get.

Jaynee [00:28:56] That? Well, he kind of rolls is on.

Brian [00:28:57] Your side with that because it is a big it.

Jaynee [00:28:59] Is but even like things like AP of his mission like I think you know I he's like please do not say and I say but I'm a convert like you know how many times I did talk to the missionaries over my life.

Jaynee [00:29:10] My parents went baptized. I was 18 till I went away to college and my grandmother passed.

Jaynee [00:29:16] And so I went to church, but I didn't fully go to church.

Jaynee [00:29:19] Right? Like there's always this push and pull in my house.

Jaynee [00:29:22] And so for me that the thought.

Jaynee [00:29:24] Of my husband going on a mission to Detroit eight mile getting.

Jaynee [00:29:28] Bullet holes in their car, like just these stories, like I just in awe of him. And so like he gave up two years of his life to go do this and yeah. And I so it's that feeling of and I want to say proud, but like because it's not for me to be proud of, but I'm just so like, thank you for doing that. Like, that's a sacrifice. And I and because he's just so is such a great leader and he does all these things and, and he's one of those people that is like just lucky. Like, I don't think I've ever.

Jaynee [00:29:53] Been somewhere where he hasn't, like, won a drawing or.

Jaynee [00:29:56] Like, you know, whatever happens, like, he just kind of is that. I love it. That's not me. I like trip over myself in the in a parking lot and I'm like, what did I fall over myself? Like, I just am clumsy and and just not the best luck. I can't find my way out of a paper bag. He like is just glides at a room and he is kind of saying the summer he was like.

Jaynee [00:30:18] I don't know about church. Like he's having questions and thoughts and feeling like it's, it's not for him in the same way. And I don't want to speak for him. Sure. Sure. You know, it's not about that.

Jaynee [00:30:31] But what happened for me.

Jaynee [00:30:33] Was all those, you know, where we're this couple and and we have these blessings. And then if your husband says, I don't I'm not going to.

Jaynee [00:30:42] Yeah. And he's he's still.

Jaynee [00:30:45] You know, he has very active family and like, he's still, you know.

Jaynee [00:30:49] He's like, I'm going to pay tithing. I'm going to go and I'm like, oh, well, okay, you know, I'm still going to go. But like, just I think there's a name for it.

Jaynee [00:30:58] Actually, I looked it up. I was looking at to read stuff online and there was like a name where it was like physically in, but mentally.

Jaynee [00:31:04] Oh, I had never heard that. And I was like, That's what it is. And again, his story part that I wanted to relate back is I talked to.

Jaynee [00:31:14] A friend of mine who had two sisters that had their husbands kind of go through this, and they got divorced.

Jaynee [00:31:19] They divorce.

Jaynee [00:31:20] Them. They basically gave them like an ultimatum and were like, Either.

Jaynee [00:31:23] This is.

Jaynee [00:31:24] What I signed up for.

Jaynee [00:31:25] This is the boxes that I'm checking.

Jaynee [00:31:27] For my happiness. And if you don't do that and they got divorced. And when he told me, like, I remember where we were on, we were on a train and this summer and I remember just being like partners and.

Jaynee [00:31:39] Like you're I'm rider like everything every I meant every word of those.

Jaynee [00:31:44] Things.

Jaynee [00:31:44] And if this is where you're like where you go, I go like, I love you and that. There wasn't. But it just I love you and I'm going to be here. And I and he says, you know, it really brought us closer, actually, because I.

Jaynee [00:31:57] Didn't respond in the way he thought, like he thought I was going to do that.

Jaynee [00:32:00] But you're Elder's Quorum president return was like, you know, I was just like, I love you and I will support you.

Jaynee [00:32:07] Like, I'm going to go.

Jaynee [00:32:08] I am going to be.

Jaynee [00:32:09] Your wife and love you. And and it's not going to change if you don't go.

Jaynee [00:32:13] Right. And that's just been this really I mean, it's brand new, but I.

Jaynee [00:32:17] Just want to say that I think that fits in to that, where I had a choice of like making him feel less valued and like he failed me and, you know, our.

Jaynee [00:32:28] Marriage was going to struggle or we had come.

Jaynee [00:32:31] Together and I could just love him. Yeah.

Jaynee [00:32:33] And it it's been interesting because I literally have had friends that are just like, how are you?

Jaynee [00:32:38] You know.

Jaynee [00:32:39] As if it's me. Like, it's on me, right? Like, how are you handling this? And I'm like, Yeah.

Brian [00:32:45] I mean, it's such a tricky thing because on the one hand, you married him and you love him. No buts. Right on the on the other hand, it was for all eternity in the temple.

Jaynee [00:32:59] It was.

Brian [00:32:59] And he can't step out of that and let you continue on in that. So it puts you in a really it puts him in a really hard situation. It puts you both in a very so I think the question of how are you handling that is a very legitimate one because we talked about values at the very beginning of of the last episode and most conflicts that I see in in politics and understanding and people that really go head to head on different things isn't a sign of intelligence or anything else. It's a sign of values. Somebody that values love. Over, over. What's the word I'm thinking of? Over fairness or freedom on any issue. Consider if you love was your common, your your highest value or our personal freedom was your highest value, you would see the issue differently and you wouldn't be wrong in either case, but you'd definitely be on opposite sides. So here you are. You're faced with the same thing, right? And it's kind of what where you put your values, where he puts his values. And if you come down on different sides of that, there's not say this value is better than that value. I don't know many people that would argue that personally. They would argue. But in general, I think people can see the merits in any one of those values. But the question is, which value do you uphold at that time? Right. That that's that's very difficult. And what if your values change? Yeah, for whatever reason, which happens, people change. Right. So now you're having conversations. You never thought you would.

Jaynee [00:34:32] Have never thought it. Yeah, our conversations are very different and very. Yeah. Just it's an odd thing. Yeah.

Jaynee [00:34:40] Go ahead. Sorry.

Brian [00:34:41] No, I.

Jaynee [00:34:41] Yeah. And it, you.

Jaynee [00:34:43] Know, I, I people have the like coming out of the church and like need to tell everybody and I even, I feel a little bit like all I talk in it because.

Jaynee [00:34:52] It's his.

Jaynee [00:34:53] Story and not mine. So I want to focus on like, you know, my feelings about being the the wife in this because I imagine that other women are dealing with this and it's the instinct is to to immediately.

Brian [00:35:07] And other men, by the way.

Jaynee [00:35:08] Yes. To say hashtag feminism. I just feel like that this.

Jaynee [00:35:14] Is something that I.

Jaynee [00:35:16] Mean, I started reading all these things and was trying to.

Jaynee [00:35:18] Like, understand and like wanted to handle it well. And and it's just, I guess, coming from a place of being a convert and making that choice and leaving my family and going, What you raised me and how are your values? I'm choosing something else, but wanting the expectation to be that I'm still lovable. That yeah, because you don't value what I do, I'm still valuable to you. And I think that I am just having a different approach because if I wanted to choose to join, then why can't I respect someone that chooses to leave? And I think, you know, I love the rosary and arguments that that it's the ability to look at someone else's point and not agree with them, but to understand them come to some reckoning of like, oh, I see why they think that way and respect that.

Brian [00:36:05] The whole point of this podcast, right, is to put yourself in someone else's situation and think I totally see where they're coming from and why that's so difficult and why they're reacting and believing and have the values that they do and they're not wrong. Yeah, that doesn't mean I have I'm going to adopt all of those, but yeah, definitely gives you something to think about.

Jaynee [00:36:23] And I would imagine. I'm sure people would have things to say about where it gets harder or more difficult or, you know, we're not. It was interesting to have like a friend go, well, what did he do? Like they kind of this like, well, is it porn? Is it a fair?

Jaynee [00:36:38] Like, it had to be something, right?

Brian [00:36:40] Right.

Jaynee [00:36:41] And so I we went on a walk and I shared that with him, that like, that's what people are thinking. That was so unfortunate to me. Like, that just was heartbreaking because I why couldn't it just be a choice, like we said, that you're respecting a choice and someone's this is what's best for me now. And it and so I'm grappling with all of it. I just know that I'm I love this man and I'm going to be with him. And and I just I'm not the thing that's going to waver like we have.

Jaynee [00:37:09] We've had our.

Jaynee [00:37:10] Problems and we will have problems. But I'm not leaving him because he's choosing something that he needs for himself to be whole and have his vote, you know? Yeah, yeah. But like, I, I have mine and we can row towards the horizon together, but I'm not going to. Yeah, I just. I'm not leaving.

Brian [00:37:27] Okay. So when you, when you pick that horizon, is it I mean, what, what is that spot that you're aiming for in the horizon. Yeah. Right. That's a that's a big question you've got to come to grapple with. Is it is it wherever, is it with him, is it just alongside his boat and where he's going, or do you pick that other spot in the horizon? Right. That's a big question. I don't mean to.

Jaynee [00:37:45] Know for sure, but it's fine. And I think that that's the for me, being.

Jaynee [00:37:50] A convert and like you don't ever feel like you're totally in like you least that's a variance of a lot of converts. Like it's like you're not fully, you know, one of everybody and you're always trying to kind of and I mean, I remember not knowing all the songs or like, not, you know, there's that feeling. But it just when I look at my husband and loving him heard so many times when people when I had questions about the church, it was like, we'll put.

Jaynee [00:38:17] It on a shelf or like figure that out later, especially when you're.

Jaynee [00:38:20] Divorced, you know, and both of us still to other people. Originally, there were there's questions and it's always like.

Jaynee [00:38:27] Well, just put that aside.

Jaynee [00:38:29] And he's going, No, I want answers now. Like I'm not putting it to the side. And I think because I didn't come from like believing something my whole life, like I choose what I want to believe and choose to join and choose because the good outweighs the bad like I different for me than him going his whole life believing it. He believed in Santa.

Jaynee [00:38:50] And then you have new information.

Jaynee [00:38:52] And you don't believe that anymore. Yeah, like, I don't know.

Jaynee [00:38:55] If that's a good way to look at it.

Jaynee [00:38:57] You can tell me, but, like.

Jaynee [00:38:58] I just feel like he's he's.

Jaynee [00:39:01] Exploring that and he's been so kind and respectful about it. Like, it's not like this. Like, you know, I can him going.

Jaynee [00:39:07] With me to sit.

Jaynee [00:39:08] With me and like, you know, we're trying to kind of figure this out right now, but I imagine people go through it in the, you know, in our ostracized and lose friends and family. And now it's heartbreaking. Yeah. And it goes back to the first things we talked about. Like I, I just if you're going to be with me in this moment and love me right, then.

Jaynee [00:39:28] Good and.

Jaynee [00:39:29] Bad, right? Better or worse.

Brian [00:39:30] And so does he share his thinking on it? Does he share his problems with it? And how much of that does that now spill over and become your problem? Right. Because I had an earlier guest say when she started kicking things off of herself and looking at him to try to find some answers, she found out all kinds of things that she had never heard of before and was sharing them with her mom. And she says, I didn't realize that the walls I were carrying down weren't my walls. Oh, wow. And so she felt like the one person she had to rely on her whole life. Her mom, they talked about everything. Now all of a sudden, she has to be careful about what she shares with her because she may not want to hear this and she may not be ready for this. And you need to be a little bit more careful with that. So that topic always comes up with with a couple as well. Is it still open an honest communication or.

Jaynee [00:40:16] Yeah, no, totally honest.

Brian [00:40:18] How much does that spill?

Jaynee [00:40:19] Like the letter. Like there was this letter that was like.

Jaynee [00:40:23] Mind.

Jaynee [00:40:24] Blown, like my like just and we had all these discussions.

Jaynee [00:40:29] About it and like, really talk openly. Like, I don't want to lose that. Like, that's that's where it does feel like you're going well, what.

Jaynee [00:40:37] He has this other.

Jaynee [00:40:38] Life and then this, you know, so.

Jaynee [00:40:40] We, we had discussions about that and there were things that I didn't.

Jaynee [00:40:43] Know, but.

Brian [00:40:44] So now that's on your shelf and they wouldn't have been.

Jaynee [00:40:46] Total. And that's where I am.

Brian [00:40:48] And you also have a shared shelf, right? So that's part of the whole marriage arrangement. Mm hmm. Right. Their shelf is my shelf and to some extent. But I mean, that's that's one of my big questions for you is how much of that is spilling over now is causing collateral damage on your side that you're thinking, wow, I've never even heard of this before. Who is this? This person, the letter.

Jaynee [00:41:08] Yeah. And, and there was a lot of things like that, but that's been a.

Jaynee [00:41:12] Really interesting and I, you know, the the idea that it's true and you have to believe everything and do everything perfectly and be this person like that just didn't apply to me. And I'll give you an example we talked about. My brother and the Super Bowl and those.

Jaynee [00:41:26] Games are all on Sunday. And I can remember having this.

Jaynee [00:41:30] Lesson where it was like our.

Jaynee [00:41:32] Daughter, bless her heart, it was like our daughter was a soccer player and she chose not to play in the championship. It was something to that effect. Right. And clearly their line.

Jaynee [00:41:42] And and me, I.

Jaynee [00:41:44] Remember, you know, this lesson in me raising my hand and being like, you know, my husband calls it my.

Jaynee [00:41:48] Colombo, like where I'm like, have you.

Jaynee [00:41:50] Ever considered and have you thought about this? Like, I pretend like but me posing the question and Relief Society going if I didn't go on Sunday to Sunday.

Jaynee [00:42:00] Brunch at noon at at the Burkes house, where our family went every.

Jaynee [00:42:04] Sunday or, you know, to my brother's games on Sunday, I wouldn't have a relationship at all with.

Jaynee [00:42:09] My family.

Jaynee [00:42:10] Like it would look like what? Like if our church is about family, I'm trying to still have a relationship.

Jaynee [00:42:16] With mine and.

Jaynee [00:42:17] It includes these things. And for me, whether it's, you know, watching horse races with my brother's like whatever it was like, I don't I didn't partake in it directly but in my around the gambling and alcohol or Sunday. Absolutely. And and to ask me not to be to deny the family that I have that I love, like that's not okay. And I guess that's the framework.

Jaynee [00:42:41] I'm coming from where I'm like.

Jaynee [00:42:43] It. I already was like, break. Just, I just had my temple interview and I told the bishop, I love that word striving. Striving to keep this every day holy. Like I'm striving bishop. But I've got some other things that I'm dealing with. Yeah. And, and that's kind of how I've always looked.

Jaynee [00:42:59] At it and, and now it's just kind of come full circle back in my husband kind of having those same things where he's like, this is, this is where I'm coming from. And I am willing to to.

Jaynee [00:43:10] See like respect him.

Jaynee [00:43:11] And love him and, and see his points and have those discussions and then still evaluate like where where I'm at and like what my needs.

Jaynee [00:43:20] Are. Yeah. Any advice for.

Brian [00:43:22] You know, my wife is the therapist. I am not. Mm. No. But you said the church is all about family, but it's also about obedience. Exact obedience. It's also about and again, it comes back to values, right? Depending on what your number one value is, how you teach that lesson about Sabbath Day observance could be completely different and could be taken completely different. And which one is the right one for everybody? Who knows? Right. So one of the questions that I had for you was if you if this had been your first marriage and your kids were all still younger and they were all in church, how would this be different? That's a.

Jaynee [00:43:57] Good.

Brian [00:43:58] Lots of different pressures. And I know that's, you know, what a lot of what if analysis, but I know people that go through this at all different ages. Right. They're both families are very much in the church. I know people that haven't spoken with their families because they left the church. And I know people that haven't spoken with their act because they stayed in the church. And I know it's just there are so many nuances to it that I have. One of my biggest things was everything was black and white, and I was always told it's exact obedience. And I bought into that and I and I preach that. And then I'm like and so the issues of that created for me, other people now are like, Oh, that was never an issue for me. I'm like, Oh, so was I making an issue out of something that wasn't an issue? Or but for me that was a concern. It wasn't just obedience, it was exact obedience. It wasn't striving. It's being perfect on the Sabbath day. And and I can't remember who put those ideas in my head or somebody else that was drawing a line, say, no, this is the way it has to be. I didn't have that. Yeah, I think I know. So. People do change over time and their situations change and they change. Their values change in the way they see their perspective on things change.

Jaynee [00:45:05] He I think if our kids.

Jaynee [00:45:07] Were younger, it would, it would have been different. And for me to when you say that, like I'm like, oh, that would have been a lot harder because I relied so much on the structure to help me as a parent.

Brian [00:45:17] Yes.

Jaynee [00:45:17] Yeah, I needed that. And I think so. You know, my my mom was like I.

Jaynee [00:45:22] Was a hitter physically. You know, that was.

Jaynee [00:45:25] Her way of handling anger and hurt and frustration and and not communicating. So myself, as a parent, I chose to not spank my children because I was afraid that I wouldn't know where that line was, because my experience was not great. And I share that in that, you know, I was breaking a cycle and going, I'm going to do this differently, like, but I don't know how. So it, you know.

Jaynee [00:45:47] Looking at the books and time out and then, you know, love and logic, parent like I did it all right, because I was trying to like reprogram.

Jaynee [00:45:55] Myself from this childhood experience that I didn't want to continue on. And I think that that's something that kids were younger. I needed that. And it's now that they're older and that they're not none of them are active that if anything, I feel like my husband wants to be closer to them and doesn't want to be that same presence that he's been. And it's because, you know, for other people that that have left the church, they they relate to.

Jaynee [00:46:20] Better and they can talk to you. But he has this.

Jaynee [00:46:23] Pedestal of like. We don't want to add to, though, because he's you know, he's.

Jaynee [00:46:27] He's perfect.

Brian [00:46:28] Right?

Jaynee [00:46:28] Right. And he hates that. And I feel like he's he's letting go of that and going, no, like I want a relationship with with our kids. Right. Without that contingent, those contingencies and checkboxes and it just. And that's a big part of it.

Jaynee [00:46:43] Absolutely.

Jaynee [00:46:44] I would, again, not be working for him, but I could see where had when our children were younger. It was like I don't think he would have read the C. Yes, I think.

Jaynee [00:46:53] But I don't even think he would have read that. Right.

Jaynee [00:46:55] Like it's just you're, you're focused on being an example and, and what that looks like instead of, you know, now where he's having those hardcovers, having conversations with them that are so different than what it would have been. Right. Yeah. Yeah, that that's really a good point. And I will say to people are like full disclosure because it's awful.

Jaynee [00:47:14] I mean, like don't.

Brian [00:47:15] Have what are we holding back?

Jaynee [00:47:16] Exactly. So the hardest part for me is.

Jaynee [00:47:19] The temple, because it's something that like we were you worked for, we wanted to get married in the temple. You know, we we waited, got married in the temple. And it it means something to me. He even, you know, was unsealed to his first wife and like went through that process.

Jaynee [00:47:34] Which it was quite a.

Jaynee [00:47:36] Process and is just sealed to me and and I him and and that that's something that I think no matter what happens, I would have a hard time letting go of. Like that's something that I because of my family and, and I just I want him forever. And in the thought of that not being the case like that, that's a hard one for me. Yeah.

Brian [00:47:56] Yeah. And I have a lot of people that say, okay, so what are your values now? And it's like, well, they're the same as they were before. It didn't change anything, you know?

Jaynee [00:48:04] Yeah.

Brian [00:48:05] Which is is true and isn't true. I mean, again, we come back to are you are we all on the Lord's boat or are we keeping our boat and paddling alongside the Lord's boat? Right. That that's that's another I hadn't even thought about that as as an analogy. I've thought about that with couples before, but I haven't thought about it with religion. Is it can you just go out and just row your own boat wherever you want? That wasn't an option for me before.

Jaynee [00:48:29] I think that's what people what I.

Jaynee [00:48:31] You know, I've been like looking at blogs and trying to, like, you know, handle this all well.

Jaynee [00:48:36] And it seems like that's.

Jaynee [00:48:39] A lot of the stuff is like nature is, you know, God is in the nature. And like you have your.

Jaynee [00:48:45] Direct.

Jaynee [00:48:45] Relationship with him. You don't need a priest or a bishop or someone to have conversations with you at young ages to figure, yeah, like it's like, no, you can have develop a relationship with God. And I certainly I don't know, those are a lot of the things that I, I want to process and, and talk about how I want to live my life and what's this going to look like. But I have always known with a surety, perfection is not what we as a culture believe it to mean. Hopefully that it's.

Jaynee [00:49:13] A word from the Greek. It's in Hebrew and in any other.

Jaynee [00:49:16] It's not perfect. Without sin, it's.

Jaynee [00:49:19] Perfect means whole. It's right one with Christ, it's.

Jaynee [00:49:23] One ness, it's completion. And that changes the entire conversation. And living.

Brian [00:49:27] With integrity.

Jaynee [00:49:28] Yes. So to to think that.

Jaynee [00:49:30] My husband, whom I love and committed to, can't do.

Jaynee [00:49:33] That, can't be perfect because.

Jaynee [00:49:35] He's not. No, he can be whole and and have a relationship with Christ and I but I believe. Yeah.

Brian [00:49:41] So tell me your surrounding this particular topic, what are your big emotions that that come through? What are the ones that you just keep going back to? I'm I'm started to pay a little more attention to my to my feelings and trying to understand the emotion that I'm feeling. And I'm just kind of curious as to what your core emotions are, if you've even thought about it or.

Jaynee [00:50:01] I'm much more of a.

Jaynee [00:50:01] Head than a heart person case.

Jaynee [00:50:04] Okay, I have to like, okay, cause me a minute to like get into.

Jaynee [00:50:08] It's funny because my with my stepdaughter's like I had to explain, like, I'm.

Jaynee [00:50:12] Not a hugger, like, I have.

Jaynee [00:50:13] To make an effort for those things or saying I let you know when you're not familiar with them like it's again, breaking cycles and yeah. And so I, I know that I can stay in all of this in my TED talk. I'm like, I.

Jaynee [00:50:26] Was the head griever, not a griever.

Jaynee [00:50:30] But I think that that insecurity like feeling that you have I have security and that like the gratitude and the blessings and like feeling like I've never felt like I checked other boxes and I, I'm in the club. I don't that's never been the case. Like I don't ever feel like that.

Brian [00:50:46] In the club as far as the church goes.

Jaynee [00:50:48] Yeah.

Brian [00:50:49] Do you think that's because you were a convert? Is that part of it or it was.

Jaynee [00:50:54] You want that list in alphabetical order? No. I mean, I teach feminism at the school and people think it's like in a rub off.

Jaynee [00:51:00] On them or something like that.

Brian [00:51:02] Hope it does.

Jaynee [00:51:03] I just think you. But it's just this fear of different.

Jaynee [00:51:07] I'm also you know, I just I've I think we talked about the here racist comments or the N-word and I'm like.

Jaynee [00:51:15] And it shouldn't matter that it because.

Jaynee [00:51:17] I'm a mixed race that it bothered it should bother everybody in the room. And it bothers me even more that it doesn't and that I'm the only one that says something like. I don't like that. Yeah, they were so wanting. Too worried about what other people think that we're willing to like our values change in those moments. And. And I don't want mine to. Yeah. I want to to be clear on like I don't agree with forms of racism and.

Jaynee [00:51:41] And that's a continuum.

Jaynee [00:51:42] That it was always interesting to see where I would say, you know, people in my class could agree that this was wrong.

Jaynee [00:51:47] Slavery or treating people racism's.

Jaynee [00:51:50] Wrong.

Jaynee [00:51:50] When you apply.

Jaynee [00:51:51] Those same actions to the LGBTQ questioning.

Jaynee [00:51:54] Community, suddenly it's okay.

Jaynee [00:51:57] To do all those things. And that was that's hard for me. Yeah. And that's where I feel like maybe my, you know, I, my daughter and I did this thing. And in a world where we, you know, had this little card that we made that was like, come.

Jaynee [00:52:10] Sit by us. Like your parents are just how we like we got to like you, you know, just this idea of.

Jaynee [00:52:16] To think parents being their.

Jaynee [00:52:17] Child's first bully is just heartbreaking.

Jaynee [00:52:21] To me and I just don't want any part of that. So I definitely feel like I've always kind of been more radical within the church as far as like wanting changes and hoping that we're going to, you know, be our best selves as a culture. Because I think those two things are very, you know, how.

Jaynee [00:52:37] People behave within the church. And the culture of the church is.

Jaynee [00:52:39] Very different than the church. So big C, little C or whatever. Yeah, I don't know. I don't I just have always been the one in Relief Society that raises my hand.

Jaynee [00:52:50] And people are like anybody else.

Brian [00:52:52] But not anybody have too much time to ponder. There's too much time left in this lesson. We're going to derail right here.

Jaynee [00:53:00] Pretty much. I there was a lesson not long ago where they.

Jaynee [00:53:03] Were saying, like, oh.

Jaynee [00:53:04] You know, there are women in the scripture that.

Jaynee [00:53:06] Are here, you know, or what women are heroes or something like that. And the women.

Jaynee [00:53:10] Were talking about, Oh, well, so-and-so brings food and she's the hero and this woman and and it was all.

Jaynee [00:53:15] Fine.

Jaynee [00:53:16] But I was just like, really, no one can. And I raised my hand. I was like, okay. So I just started going off on different women in Scripture. In the Old Testament, we were studying, right? And I was just like this. And what about that? Like this woman? And and to me, I'm like, and then I ended up they asked me to.

Jaynee [00:53:32] It for our Relief Society birthday to come and teach a lesson on all these women. Because I would teach at the institute. I didn't devotional at Weber and.

Jaynee [00:53:40] That's the step I talk.

Jaynee [00:53:41] About is like empowering women through it should be empowering not make you feel less you should feel more like I think that and so I did I do this whole thing like ten ways that Christ was the first feminist and like.

Jaynee [00:53:55] How scripturally I can prove that this is this is the fact. And if you say you.

Jaynee [00:54:00] Want to be like him and walking, right.

Jaynee [00:54:03] Well what he actually did and who he was. Yeah, but that doesn't go over well all the time.

Jaynee [00:54:09] That's not always been like that's why I'm not going to ever be the. Yeah. I'm not going to be in the club.

Brian [00:54:15] Yeah. Yeah. So what do you think is going on in for those that it that doesn't go over well for what values are going on in their head where that is a red flag for them.

Jaynee [00:54:26] I think questioning in general.

Jaynee [00:54:27] Okay. Right. Okay. I mean, I don't want to I don't really think about that so much.

Jaynee [00:54:32] But I remember.

Jaynee [00:54:33] Feeling, though, when I was asked to give the devotional that we were like, Your name's on the marquee, right? Like I remember being like wanting.

Jaynee [00:54:39] To like share that with.

Jaynee [00:54:40] The women from my hometown. Like, I.

Jaynee [00:54:42] Had, you know, look, I'm I'm good enough like that. I remember.

Jaynee [00:54:47] Recognizing.

Brian [00:54:47] This isn't a Super Bowl. I get it.

Jaynee [00:54:49] But but no. And it felt like.

Jaynee [00:54:51] Wow, like I I'm getting, you know, and it was packed. And I was so grateful for that opportunity. And it did feel but it wasn't because I was doing everything right. It's my willingness to be vulnerable and share what I've done wrong and how that, you know, the truest moments for me is as a woman that has faith, is is those.

Jaynee [00:55:12] Opportunities to truly live your.

Jaynee [00:55:14] Religion. It's not the checkboxes. It's when you do the really hard stuff that's beyond that.

Brian [00:55:19] I'm thinking I have this question. I'm not sure if I if it's.

Jaynee [00:55:24] Oh, come on now. It's you were 2 hours in.

Brian [00:55:27] You know, I was just thinking I'm not sure if it's formulated correctly. I don't want this to come off the wrong way.

Jaynee [00:55:34] So I'm a walking contradiction and I'm aware of that. Like it's always been the case. Like, I don't know if it's the mixed race thing or the even in politics or in I just the rosary. I try to see both sides of something. Yeah. And, and not people won't know where I actually stand on it. Yeah. Because I'm trying to, to be respectful of either or and not but like I really do try to do that. So I do recognize that I am a contradiction and that I, I, but I feel like it's something that I actually like about myself. I can bridge different environments and walk in different situations, be respectful of both.

Brian [00:56:12] Yeah. And that's been a relatively new recent learning for me. And I'm, it's not, it hasn't become become common or I'm not comfortable with it. But holding two disparate truths at the same time they. I would have, you know, five, ten years ago, I would have said, that's not possible. There's the truth and there isn't the truth. Which one are you holding?

Jaynee [00:56:30] Wow.

Brian [00:56:31] And now it's like, no, there are so many things that are just seem so contrary. And there's still a part of me and my voice, my my inner critic just says that will can't be quit being wishy washy. Pick one or the other, you know, and go with it. But yeah, I like life is there are a lot of contradictions out there. Right. And I'm not sure I'm trying to be open to all truth and claims that contradicts and it really messes up.

Jaynee [00:56:53] Mm hmm. And I. But isn't that, like, the huge growth I imagine, like to be able to sit with? Yeah.

Brian [00:57:00] I think so. To me, it feels like growth.

Jaynee [00:57:02] I think so.

Brian [00:57:03] To me, it feels like growth.

Jaynee [00:57:04] Yeah, I would.

Jaynee [00:57:05] Agree with that because anything.

Jaynee [00:57:06] So rigid in.

Jaynee [00:57:07] One belief and and an unwillingness to consider alternatives goes back to what you were saying, right? Yeah. I don't know. I want to. I want to.

Jaynee [00:57:15] And maybe that's naive or I'm not.

Jaynee [00:57:18] Like I said, it's it's new experiences for me. But where I'm at right now, like I'm able to hold his truth and mine together and come and be respectful of that. Yeah. Like, I don't. I'm not. That's where I'm. That's where I'm at. And that's where I'd like to stay right now. And I don't we haven't had situations that I, you know, have been brought up like I he didn't get his Templar recommend again and we have a wedding coming up so it's an it's a.

Jaynee [00:57:43] First needs to get married.

Jaynee [00:57:45] And that's a big deal in the temple and what what's.

Jaynee [00:57:47] That going to look like. And I think that'll be the first time that he'll have to.

Jaynee [00:57:51] My sister in law is won't listen to this. I'm sorry.

Jaynee [00:57:54] That's okay. I was like thinking, well, maybe they'll hear this, but no, they won't. They won't hear this. But I think that'll be the first.

Jaynee [00:58:01] Time that we'll be faced with the situation. We'll hear he'll be confronted and have to respond. Yeah. And what's that going to look like?

Jaynee [00:58:08] Yeah. So. And how do.

Brian [00:58:09] You feel about that?

Jaynee [00:58:09] Like, I'm going to protect my husband. Honestly, that's the first thing I think of is like, I don't he's not less because of this. Like, if anything, it I mean, it obviously takes a lot of courage to do something different that you've always I don't know. I just I that's my first instinct, actually, is find him. Protect him from. Yeah. I don't it in it hurts me to think of them looking down on him or thinking less of him or something. That is hard for me to think of. Not that I'm saying they were.

Jaynee [00:58:36] Not sure, but the thought of.

Jaynee [00:58:38] That is difficult for.

Brian [00:58:39] Me. But it's it's hard to for again, this is just me like yesterday. Right? Being able to understand two truths, that conflict, especially when you've been what I've been conditioned to think it's the one true church and the one true. And so all the other ones were what then, you know. And so that's taken a while to wrap my head around that. But from that mindset, I still remember thinking, you need to explain it when a good person like your husband doesn't renew his temple recommend isn't in the temple. Something. In order for that to sit with you, you have to come up with a story or something that makes it make sense, right? It that it's kind of human nature.

Jaynee [00:59:22] And that's where my my girlfriend, I was just like, is it porn? Just tell me, Janie, is it porn?

Jaynee [00:59:28] I'm like, No, it's not like this.

Jaynee [00:59:30] She could not process it. She could not. It was like, did it? Did you check it? Did he have an affair? Like, what did he do? Like what?

Brian [00:59:36] There is something.

Jaynee [00:59:37] It had to be something. And that makes me sad because to. To rob him of his virtue and his values. Yeah. Because he's got new information and now wants to make a different choice. That's how I see it.

Brian [00:59:50] Yeah. And to from their perspective to see that him doing this is actually helping him become what he believes is a better person. That that doesn't that that that's not the way this story ends. It has to end something else. There has to be something else, right?

Jaynee [01:00:04] Yeah. And I, I, I'm curious what you think about this, but I was telling him that and again, a lot of it for me is questions, not answers yet. Like I'm still a man, but, you know, he's someone that when he got divorced, he was Elder's Quorum president and it was like shock scandal, right. That his wife left him was just wait, wait.

Jaynee [01:00:23] And he he handled it. He tried to just be the good person, the whole, you know, whatever.

Jaynee [01:00:28] Happened, happened. But since then, in those ten years we've been together, there's probably been four or five of his friends that have now got divorced. And he took them to lunch.

Jaynee [01:00:39] And he's that guy that was the four, you know, that they held on their pedestal.

Jaynee [01:00:43] And then now could say.

Jaynee [01:00:44] Okay, well, this.

Jaynee [01:00:45] Happened this like, you know, make sure.

Jaynee [01:00:47] You get 5050, like be the dad, like all these things.

Jaynee [01:00:50] That he learned from that journey. And I was telling him, just believe in my heart that whatever is happening, you're going to help with this. And I and I want to make sure that I'm when he retells that story, that that my role is one of support and love and and acceptance. So that's that's again, it's not an answer. But like, I feel that inside where I'm like, this will be just, you know, he's going through something and it's going to help.

Jaynee [01:01:16] He's he is that person.

Jaynee [01:01:17] It doesn't change like he's going to be a leader in a new way. Yeah. And and I know he'll be there for other people struggling. That's true. He is. Yeah. So I don't.

Brian [01:01:26] Know. And I think I think it's incidents like that that is helping take a lot of stigma off of things before that word. There is just such a huge stigma on getting divorced or leaving the church. And I think it's I think it's becoming a little bit more like first of all, you don't know all the reasons and you don't get to know. You don't need to know. It's none of your business. Just be there to support that person. Yeah, right. And know that they're doing what's right for them. Yeah. Right. And whether they're having kids or not having kids or whether. I mean, there are so many issues that people used to say, well, gee, what's going on? Why don't you? It's none of your business. And it's not the end of the world, which we had, I think, had kind of been taught that that was the worst thing. And it's like can be very difficult, but so can the opposite. So can not getting divorced, so can be having kids can be a bigger challenge than not having kids.

Jaynee [01:02:16] And your wife as a therapist can tell you that it's it's not the divorce that does it.

Jaynee [01:02:20] It's the amount of insight and stress and what they witness within whatever relationship. So healthy parents are going to a far better option.

Jaynee [01:02:30] Yeah.

Jaynee [01:02:30] Then loveless marriage with high conflict. Yes.

Jaynee [01:02:33] Right.

Jaynee [01:02:33] Like and that's what it. But I think it's you know, and they they say like the if your sins if all of our sins smell like if you smoke.

Jaynee [01:02:40] That people know. Right. I think it's that though.

Jaynee [01:02:43] It's it's that people don't have to know what's happening inside the home. And you can still stay married for the you know.

Brian [01:02:49] And as long as you stay married and keep your temple recommend, then it doesn't really matter. You know what people out there that are married, that have a temple recommend, they're some of the worst people that I ever met. And there are people that have never been inside a church, that have never had a temple recommend, that are great people, that doesn't say anything about either organization it just ah assumptions on one is probably not accurate on either is probably not accurate. Right. Yeah. We just assume that one thing means that everything is on the up and up and it's like has nothing to do with it.

Jaynee [01:03:16] Yeah. And I, I, I think one of the things that I, I was again talking to him and asked saying like, how are you going to feel? This gives other people like in the same with divorce, a family member gets divorced and then other people feel like, oh, they, they.

Jaynee [01:03:31] Broke the, you know, this is possible. Like, I could survive this and then other siblings get divorced.

Jaynee [01:03:35] And I was.

Jaynee [01:03:36] Like, How are you going to.

Jaynee [01:03:37] Feel if I'll go with you? If you know you the conversations, like you said, conversations. You have the six letter.

Jaynee [01:03:44] That's right. Yes. Yeah. Okay. Or that you.

Jaynee [01:03:48] Telling them your process is going to ignite their process. And like that is something that like we've been talking about, like what that's going to I'm the anomaly in all of it because I just have such a different where I come to it and I don't I didn't have the like it's the only and absolute and you have to 100% believe like always because to do that would deny like this other part of me that people that I love, that I know or are equally good, right? Saved. Like I'm not going to take that from them like I. So I don't think I had that experience as a member my whole life believing this. Right. Yeah. So, but I, he, it's not that he has a response. I'm just saying those are the kind of questions that we talk about like what's this going to look like for you?

Jaynee [01:04:30] Because he is he is.

Jaynee [01:04:31] A leader and he's someone that lives a life that I think you know, where I do think.

Jaynee [01:04:35] There's this idea.

Jaynee [01:04:36] Of like.

Jaynee [01:04:36] Where you do.

Jaynee [01:04:37] These things and then you get these blessings. Well, we have all those blessings that people want. So does that mean that then we're going to we.

Jaynee [01:04:44] Need to lose them for this to make sense to people?

Brian [01:04:47] Yes. Or they need to come up with a story in their head. And I think a lot of times people stay in situations that are unhealthy for them because they think that doing something else would be damaging and they would lose those blessings and that they need those blessings. And by staying here in this, then that's going to be good over the long term. And what I'm starting to see is a lot of people are asking the question. Glennon Doyle has a great question. Where was she? She was in a marriage that she was questioning leaving. And she said if your daughter was in this marriage, would you want her to stay or would you want her to leave? And she was like, that's that's stupid. Of course I would want her to leave. Wow. Right. And so but there's so much stigma. There's like, well, the world's going to end if you leave, and it's like the world doesn't end. Mm hmm. You have to put yourself in the right position and get your own boat and make sure you're taking care of yourself and all of those other things we attach stigma to. You'll ride that storm out much easier if you're in your own boat.

Jaynee [01:05:45] Yeah. And you know, being in a blended family, like it's really hard.

Brian [01:05:49] It's definitely challenges for sure.

Jaynee [01:05:51] Lots of challenges. And I feel like I don't necessarily get along with his his ex.

Jaynee [01:05:57] Like it's not like we're friends. I would like to be, but we're it's like another one of those relationships where it's like, I've tried this different ways and it doesn't work out for either of us. Right. So it's better with some distance. And but that being said, I have so much respect and gratitude for her for what she did. And I.

Jaynee [01:06:18] Always you know, any time there's been an issue, I'm always like I.

Jaynee [01:06:21] Will always be grateful that she had the. Courage to leave him because that's my is that's who I am, my person. Right. And if it wasn't for that strength in her to do that right, then we couldn't have the life we have. And I see that is just something I'll always admire her for, like taking that step because I can't even fathom having.

Jaynee [01:06:40] Yeah, I, I.

Jaynee [01:06:41] Mean, I, I don't know if that makes sense or if I'm not doing.

Jaynee [01:06:44] It right, but.

Brian [01:06:45] Actually it's a beautiful thought and I hope it's one that we're all getting closer to as a society, is to have love and respect for him and for her. Mm hmm. Without feeling like you need to know all of the situations or whatever, you can be an advocate for both of them and feel that they both did what was right for them. And they both end best out of every situation.

Jaynee [01:07:07] Yeah, but I. I think I say that because he was the.

Jaynee [01:07:10] Person that would have stayed in the, you know, fought for it, fought for her, for them.

Brian [01:07:15] There's such a stigma, not.

Jaynee [01:07:16] Because he was like, I'm this guy like this. I'm and he he wouldn't have done.

Jaynee [01:07:21] It despite all the negative. He the church and the state. This.

Jaynee [01:07:26] Yeah. He wouldn't have left. So I completely credit.

Jaynee [01:07:29] Her with the ability that she did that and yeah. And the courage to do that and.

Jaynee [01:07:35] To and what that must have been like to have the priesthood holder that this person that is on a pedestal. Right. To say no.

Jaynee [01:07:42] I don't I don't want that.

Brian [01:07:44] This doesn't work.

Jaynee [01:07:44] This isn't working for me.

Jaynee [01:07:45] My happiness is elsewhere. And I just I that yeah. Forever be grateful that she had the strength to do that at the time. And, and.

Jaynee [01:07:54] Regardless of whatever has.

Jaynee [01:07:55] Happened, I feel like I always go back to that, that if it wasn't for her they wouldn't have him. So. Yeah. I'm yeah. He would have stayed in that marriage forever miserable. Wouldn't have had all of them.

Brian [01:08:05] Yeah, I would have been miserable, you know?

Jaynee [01:08:07] Mm hmm. And so I. If without her courage and. And strength in that situation. But in the end.

Jaynee [01:08:13] For him to be happy, for her to be.

Jaynee [01:08:15] Happy and live their best life. So and I think, you know, maybe that's a lesson for me, too, is I want him to do the courageous thing, like what's in his heart and what's best for him and and take those steps.

Brian [01:08:25] You know, there's part of us trying to answer everybody else's story to fill in the gaps, to try to make sense of their lives. When we don't have the information right, why can't we just assume that they are doing what's best for them and that they had all the information that we're not going to have and that they did the right thing as they saw it at the time, dealing with their traumas and their needs and everything else that they just did. And why can't we just be there to support them? I think that's the direction society is going a little bit. Yeah, there's still a lot of maturity that needs to go on and accepting that we don't understand all things, but that's okay because they're making their best thing. And what if it's a mistake? Well, then it's their mistake and they'll make the best decision after that mistake.

Jaynee [01:09:05] And and that's hard. It's hard for I think.

Jaynee [01:09:08] I've gotten there in different ways. But I know as a parent, I, I was that person like I joke about it and I said it, but I'm like.

Jaynee [01:09:16] I kind of like.

Jaynee [01:09:17] The devil's plan.

Jaynee [01:09:17] Like, I think that's a better plan.

Brian [01:09:20] Just if you got something valuable from this episode, please subscribe. Give us a five star rating and share it with a friend to support the show and help keep it ad free. Please contribute on Patreon by clicking the link in the show notes or visiting Patrick CNN.com slash strangers. You know today's take. At what point did you recognize your child's path or values became different than your own, and how did you encourage them? Please share your thoughts on our Facebook community page or send an email and join the conversation. Thanks for listening to Strangers You Know.