Amanda - Understanding Real Poverty

Amanda-audio1173550435.m4a

 

Amanda [00:00:03] Got it. Okay. 

 

Brian [00:00:06] So I have so been looking forward to this. Have you been dreading it? 

 

Amanda [00:00:12] No, I just. I'm not prepared. I just hope it comes out natural, I guess. 

 

Brian [00:00:20] Well, we're talking about you. So what do you need to do to get prepared? 

 

Amanda [00:00:24] You know, I don't know. I like to prepare for things. Yeah. So that's why it's a yeah, but it's the vulnerability thing. Right. 

 

Brian [00:00:34] That's right. Yeah. And so I in preparing a little bit, I was reading some of your bios and stuff online and I was I was getting more and more excited about it because we've chatted quite a bit, usually before an online meeting or at groups or whatever, but we've never really sat down and talked. 

 

Amanda [00:00:57] Right now. No, we haven't. Yeah. I mean, because it's gotten. 

 

Brian [00:01:03] Yeah. So that's the part that I'm really excited about. Normally I jump right into it and I've had a couple of people say, Well, aren't you going to talk about bios or whatever? And I think I'm going to add that at the beginning, after we've talked, I'm going to go back and say, Hey, today I'm talking with so-and-so and we're going to cover these topics. And I don't know what those topics are yet because we haven't kept them where that go. 

 

Amanda [00:01:27] Okay. Okay. 

 

Brian [00:01:28] I thought today I'd start with just a little bit of your background, just because some of that is still new to me. And I want to go way back to your childhood for just a second, if that's all right. 

 

Amanda [00:01:40] Mm hmm. 

 

Brian [00:01:40] So you were you were born and raised in southern Utah? Yes. In a fairly small town. 

 

Amanda [00:01:47] Yes. 

 

Brian [00:01:48] St George and St George, which was much smaller then than it is now. 

 

Amanda [00:01:53] Mhm. 

 

Brian [00:01:53] And you mentioned in one of your bios that you really didn't have any non-Mormon friends until you left for college. 

 

Amanda [00:02:02] Mm hmm. 

 

Brian [00:02:03] So tell me a little bit about your just your youth there and what you did for fun. And tell me a little bit about that girl. 

 

Amanda [00:02:11] Yeah. So I was I was the perfect girl. What I try to do for you when I tell people who I was, I followed every rule. I always got straight A's. I did. I never wanted to to disappoint my parents. I think I had to be the good kid because I guess my older brother was the bad kid, so I had to be the good kid. So I followed all the rules. I, I was I was raised Mormon in a big family. I think something unique also is that we have our family is we have those three, I guess you'd say biological siblings and four adopted siblings. And so it's a multicultural as well. Different. I have two siblings from Haiti and one my brother's African-American. So we were exposed to different ways of thinking early on in comparison to a lot of our you know, if you know, St George, it's very white, very Mormon, very one minded. One thing that I always didn't like about my community was it wasn't the Mormon ness. It was the culture of always having to be perfect. And so not always in the way people acted, but also in the way you look. So one thing that I kind of I didn't like as a young kid was, you know, all the girls had perfectly dyed hair. If, you know, the Mormon hairstyle of like the big, you know, the big hair back here and then perfect makeup and perfect and then the way of talking. And even as a young kid, I didn't like that. So I became I tried to be different while being a good girl. So I became a tomboy. I wouldn't wear makeup. I wouldn't wear my mom like she fought hard to get me to wear makeup. I played I played volleyball, actually, which brought me out, which eventually led me outside of Utah, was a volleyball scholarship. And something funny, I guess, is that my in volleyball you have tight spandex and you're my mom wanted me to wear thongs. You couldn't see the underwear line and I wouldn't I was so tomboy that I would not wear a thong and my mom would buy me underwear, too. I mean, I don't want to cover that, but I just like I wanted to be different but in the the very perfect kind of Mormon community. So I went tomboy. I wouldn't wear makeup. I would I tried to even though I did spend 2 hours a day doing my hair in a perfect ponytail, I still had to be a certain mold, but different in that mold. Everyone tries to find new ways. Yeah, it was a it was a nice community. Yeah, I was I was an avid church girl, sort of leader, speaking a lot. I organ I was very good at organizing things. I always, you know, the leader of each church level group, right? I was in my my high school seminary presidency. I yeah, I was very devout. I was a hard worker. Yeah, but I was tired of the. I was. I was a good girl, but I was tired of the sameness of everyone. And I and I think as a young girl, I was exposed to different cultures because of my family and also because my mom had a job as an international aerobics instructor. Very odd. But she kind of she exposed us to different cultures because she was she had the ability to travel and teach at different places around the world, and she'd bring back items from Malaysia or Brazil. And I went on my first international trip with her when I was 13. I went to Spain for the first time, and so I was exposed to new ways of thinking early on, but still in my my very, you know, small town mindset, I guess. So I was attracted to to seeing something new early on. 

 

Brian [00:06:43] Do do you think your mom regrets the fact that you had such broad exposure and that she doesn't get to see you for years? I mean, you go back and visit quite a bit and you talk with her and everything. I mean, you've lived out of the country more often in the last ten years than not. 

 

Amanda [00:06:59] Yeah, sometimes I think. But she has so many kids to worry about that. I know. I don't know. Like I sometimes I think so because I, I do love being seeing new cultures, learning new ways of thinking, you know, and. And it does take me away from my family, but it also gives them an excuse to see something new and come visit me. So, yes. 

 

Brian [00:07:28] Well, but you've gone further than most people. I mean, a lot of people who claim to like Internet and I love to travel. I love to go new places and different places. You want to be there. You want to live there. You want to grow roots there and become part of that community, not just go through and check the boxes and make your little Instagram account say, yes, I saw that. Went there, did that. You want to be part of this community now? How do you think that came about? 

 

Amanda [00:07:57] I think I can go through a few things, a few influences I could say. One big moment in my life did set me up to, you know, to to want to learn more about the world. One huge moment. So as as I mentioned, I was raised a devout Mormon and believed in all the teachings of the Mormon Church and was a big leader. But I knew, as I said, I wanted to get out. And so when I got a valuable scholarship to go to New York City, to New York, right outside of the city, to play in a division to liberal arts education, small college. But it was just an opportunity to see something new. And I'm right outside of New York City. I snatched it right up and I winced. And in my school I was the only Mormon girl. I was known as the Mormon girl who wore immodest clothing, who talked a little different than everyone who never cursed, who never drank. You know all the rules. But I started to make friends and I started to make friends for the first time in my life with different mindsets. And because before I had this mindset that people who were not Mormon, it was just waiting for their time to become Mormon because they had to. They had to you know, when you're in that that that mindset, that this is duty, this is the truth, this is how you reach these levels in the higher kingdom. When you die, you want everyone you love to reach that to, right? And so that was my mindset, is that I made these beautiful friends who many of them had no religion, maybe they were Christian, maybe they were Muslim, maybe they weren't really religious. And as I got to know them more, I realized they're never going to be Mormon in their lives. It it's not a mindset they'll ever have. They're never going to do that. And so how. Like in my in my very like Mormon brain, I guess. How are they not going to have the same blessings in heaven as me when I know they're great people? But but I know they're never going to accept a mormon lifestyle. I knew it's just who they were. I started to get to deeply know these friends, and I'd go to parties that I'd see them get wasted. And I watched them get wasted and drunk, and I'd have the deepest conversations with them when they were drunk. And I were asking them like, What does it feel like now? 10 minutes later? Like, I was so curious on their mindset with alcohol, but without alcohol and what they thought. And it was it was really a learning, a learning moment of that first freshman year. But the moment didn't happen. Like a strong moment in my life happened when I was. So my first semester ended and I was like, I went to visit in New York City. My friend from Utah came to visit. And we're walking the streets. And there's a lot of these, like street preachers in New York City. And there was this guy preaching. And I remember he was old and dirty and smelly and had. Greasy hair, semi homeless guy. And he had, you know, the signs that say, like, you know, come to God or die. I don't know, like this is this. And he was preaching about something. So my friend and I, because we were Mormon and we were religious and we we wanted to listen to what he said. He was talking and and then he saw that we had interest. So he came to talk to us and he came to me and he goes, Oh, so what? What religion are you? And I was proud. And I go, I'm. I'm Mormon. And then he goes, Oh, the Mormons. And then he goes and gets he has his bag and he pulls out this pamphlet, this horribly printed picture of the LDS temple in Salt Lake City with like these horrible letters that says says something like what? You don't know about the Mormons. You know, there's a lot of these anti-Mormon movements and and I was like, oh, one of these. And I was like, roll my eyes. You know, I look at I'm like, Oh. And then he looks at me and he goes, Don't you roll your eyes at me. And I go, Oh, like he. And he goes, I just want you to tell me. I don't want our I'm not asking anything from you, but I want you to tell me, have you ever questioned the truth of your church that it is actually real? And I looked at him and I go, No. And it was like it was the weirdest moment, because at one point, I finally had the possibility that my whole upbringing couldn't be real, that it could be based on false something that might not be true. Like I believed without a doubt, without any doubt in my mind that when I died, I was going to go to this level of heaven and that I would be with these people and that based on what I did in this current life. So I had everything calculated in my brain exactly what I was going to do. And I never question that, ever not. And so when he told me that, I was like, Oh, now and then and then I don't remember exactly what happened, but I remember it hit my friend the same way she was hit the same way that there's some crazy energy in the air. And we both were hit with this question, like, what if? What if it's true? What if it's fake? What if Joseph Smith made it up? What if? What if? What if? What if? And so the whole what ifs started to come. And I started questioning everything. I started. I bought books. I it was, you know, this was in 2005. And there, you know, you had Internet, you had Facebook just started or something. And it was hard to find groups of people to talk to, to try to, like, see what their, you know, did anyone think like me? I remember I found this website called X one dot net or something, and then I joined an email group. And just to listen just to listen to what people were saying. And it just put me on a questioning, you know, I didn't make any rash decisions. I just started researching and and trying to figure things out. And I, I it but but when your world when you start realizing your world might be not true in in my perspective, you know, who knows the truth is, you know, other things open other ways of thinking other things like if this isn't true, what is true is this the way life should be? Is this the way life should be, just the way life should be? And I went on, I studied behavioral sciences. I did it. I ended up because I wanted to study why people behave a certain way based on. And so I took the sociology courses and I learned, you know, like. Influence comes from so many ways. And I don't know, I, I studied, I researched. I had a really hard time with my family, but I couldn't, I couldn't. I was I was rude to them at that age too. I was angry at my parents for. When I came home one day, they knew I was questioning and I wouldn't tell them everything. I came home for Christmas once, and on the doorstep was our stake president like the president. And they like, oh, he wants to have a conversation about about your questioning of the church and then not without, like, without. Anything like telling me anything. He's just there at the doorstep, this guy to tell me. And I felt at that moment like. They don't know what I'm going through and they just think I'm wrong and trying to push me another way. And I was mad. I was angry. I was I was actually mean to my parents doing this phase of my life because I hated everything to do with Mormons, hated them. And I, I. It was really tough for my family. I think what actually helped me deal with my family, but I'm going to try thinking about this was we we had adopted. To my my brothers there. They're younger than us. They were I'd come home and they were like eight, nine years old. And I loved them so much that even if things are wrong with my family, I had my brothers, you know, they were, again, innocent. And I felt like a mom to them. And so they kept me bothered to my family, even though I went through a lot of this hard time. I remember I remember coming home and my sister Delaney, we had like this this family reunion, like get together. And my brother had other issues too. But I like he had different challenges and I had this challenge of trying to separate from Mormons. And I remember coming home once, and Delaney's just crying. She's five years younger than me, just crying. She goes, the person I look up to most in life, I can't look up to anymore. I specifically remember that, like, I can't look up to her anymore because I've I'm that. And so dealing with this was so hard because I didn't believe in the teachings of the Mormon Church anymore. I didn't. But I love my family so much. So this was really hard. And trying to find that balance has been really hard. I like. And to this day, I respect the Mormons. I think it's a it's a belief pattern. I think it's a you know, it's for some people, it's not for others. I believe a lot of errors in any religion are due to human errors and a lot of a lot of challenges and egos. And and so I've grown a different relationship with the Mormon Church. But I yeah, it was a hard period of my life, but since that moment, everything was new and I had to see and experience and learn everything. So that's what brought me to like an international lifestyle. And, and I from there. I. 

 

Brian [00:18:09] Before we move on. 

 

Amanda [00:18:10] Yeah. Sorry. 

 

Brian [00:18:11] No, no, no. This is great. I want to move on, and I want to talk about that international experience, what that was about. But I have a bunch of questions that came up while I was talking to. They're great questions. So you went from being the good girl that you worked so hard to be. So partially so your brothers and sisters could look up to you and people in the community can respect you and recognize your efforts in this area to having someone that's very close to you. Your own family members say, I can't look up to this person anymore. Yeah. Tell me a little bit more about how that felt. I mean. 

 

Amanda [00:18:51] Yeah, it was. 

 

Brian [00:18:52] A conflict between family and agency and and religion is very common. 

 

Amanda [00:19:03] But one thing about Delaney and I, we were very close. I'm five years older. I was their older sister. I, I would read to her Harry Potter at night. And I like even though I read it five times, you know. So she did look up to me and I felt like like this older sister bond with her. And so and I, I always felt as as an older sister, you know, you have this pressure to be the example, the to be that someone to look up to. And so having that being said, when you're trying so hard to be a good person, but your mindset is changing, that's not in alignment with where their mindset that was so hard. I mean, I didn't when I started saying the Mormon like I like questioning it, I didn't like jump into sex and drugs and alcohol and all this stuff. I didn't jump into all that like that wasn't what drove me to question it, you know, a lot. 

 

Brian [00:20:03] Of the church. So you could sin and because you wanted to drink that. No. 

 

Amanda [00:20:08] No, I didn't. You know, I did start drinking alcohol a few months later, but I was quite I was careful about it. I was still the goody goody girl, you know. But like e it it is so hard because you have such a bond with the family. Since then, Delaney and I are great. No, no. But it took a while. But it it's so it's I don't know. It's a it's a really it's really tough to be that role of the older person to look up to and then not be. And you can't do anything about it because you can't change your mindset back to where it was. 

 

Brian [00:20:46] You can't you can't flip that switch. 

 

Amanda [00:20:49] Can't flip it back. 

 

Brian [00:20:50] Would it be safe to say that you are still the good girl? It's just you're you've defined good just a little differently now. 

 

Amanda [00:20:57] Yeah, I guess so. And I don't. I don't think I define morality as different. Like, what is good is not the same. Good is what I thought before. I value different morals. I mean, certain morals have stayed, but I. But I don't think it's necessary that you you can't have a copy like that. You're a bad person drinking coffee right now or like or I'll. 

 

Brian [00:21:24] I'll beat that out, don't worry. 

 

Amanda [00:21:27] No. Or that you can't curse. I think cursing is a beautiful way to express your your your anger. That's what curse words are made for. I just. I value more of how you treat people, you know, and how they then. Then the. The little things that. Sarah. 

 

Brian [00:21:46] So when you give me a timeframe from when you met that street preacher that said, have you ever questioned your religion to when you got to the point where, like you said, I hated the Mormons? I mean, that that's a pretty quick reversal. 

 

Amanda [00:22:04] Yeah, it took like 3 to 4 months. I it just I just started researching and reading and I tried to hide these books because I was home for visits with my family and I wouldn't let them see what I was reading. The one member one book was called Why Do People Believe and Believe Weird Things? One was called called like it was someone's journey. Like I bought this girl's journey through leaving the Mormon Church, and that one was a big one. I couldn't let people see. I remember. I like would hide it in below books, you know, so my dad wouldn't see what I was reading. And so it took me a few months. It was mainly because I knew their mindset and I knew my parents were thinking, were upset with me and they thought I was bad and and I got in. When you have like I think of teenage kids, like when someone thinks you're doing something bad, you know, one wants to feel like they're the bad person. No one wants to feel like they separate more and more. And you become ruder and ruder. Like I see it with, you know, like kids who want to go out like 15, six year old kids who want to go out and smoke pot and then their parents hate that, you know, and then so it causes this tension, this tension in the relationship so much. And so I start hating them. They start being upset with me, and it just gets worse and worse and worse. And so for a while, it was really tough. Yeah. I was hating. Yeah. Yeah. 

 

Brian [00:23:37] So Mormons. Mormons are typically known as very nice, wonderful people. And you hated them. What what was it that that drew your your anger so much? 

 

Amanda [00:23:53] I think it was that they didn't understand me and they would never understand what I was going through and they just assumed I was wrong, that I was wrong, that I'd come back and that they were praying for me and having someone praying for you was so bad like I was. I remember even like like my cousin said she was making a joke and she was like, oh, grandma says you're the you don't love God anymore. You're the bad one. And like my my grandma said this about me, and I knew people were talking about me, that I was the bad one and that cause, like, like the people think I was bad because I was having this open mindset that, like, hurts so bad. I was so a Jew. This tension that was. And I had like an old and old also an old high school crush was talking to me. He just got back from his mission. And and he was we were chatting on MSN Messenger at that time or whatever was available. And I remember he like he's like a man or are you okay? Like, I heard you're struggling with the church and like and just like pushing these things. And I was just so angry. It's like I'm dealing with my own thing just so. And then he's like, I love you. And he says that I love you because. He was worried about me, not because he authentically because I wasn't following the rules. And so all these little things were really, I don't know, hold me in many directions. And it really I was I was I was a mean person at this time because of this tension. 

 

Brian [00:25:27] So while your mind was opening and you were reevaluating what it meant to be good, you knew how they viewed you. And because you fell off of this very narrow, strict path that you are no longer a good person because you had a coffee. 

 

Amanda [00:25:45] Yeah. 

 

Brian [00:25:46] You stopped going to church. Yeah. I mean, for these simple things that in your mind now you're thinking it's not the end of the world? 

 

Amanda [00:25:55] No. 

 

Brian [00:25:56] And you knew that they weren't going to be able to see that and see through that and say, you're still a good person. 

 

Amanda [00:26:02] Yeah. 

 

Brian [00:26:02] That drinks coffee. 

 

Amanda [00:26:04] Yeah. Oh, yeah. Alcohol. A couple of it. Right. 

 

Brian [00:26:08] Right at that point. So do you want to talk about how the church viewed anti-Mormon literature? I mean, at the time it wasn't very easy to come by, but it's a pretty common theme that anti-Mormon literature is you. Well, what what did you think about that before? I mean, it's pretty bold of you not only to go looking for it, but actually subscribe to something and say, yeah. 

 

Amanda [00:26:30] I tried to hide. I like put my name as someone else. And, you know, I was afraid there wasn't a lot out there and to like look up even Google like and Google back then. But, but anti anti-Mormon stuff or like people who struggling with the church, it was hard to find. Yeah. And I did feel like I was doing something bad. I felt like this is bad. I have to be secret also because my dad knew I was looking for it and I knew he was. He would be so upset with me. But I knew I had I had to connect with someone. I had to. And these stories I found online, when I finally when I grew, I joined this email group. I never contributed to it, ever. I just listened, just listening to what people were going through, like felt like it really helped me. 

 

Brian [00:27:20] Through right. 

 

Amanda [00:27:21] Through it. Yeah. Yeah. 

 

Brian [00:27:21] I'm not the only person that. Yeah. Did you have anything that you questioned about the church before then? I mean, a lot of the common term is you had some pull on your self doubt, your doubts, put it on the shelf before the street preacher came out, said, Have you ever questioned your religion? Was there anything that you were thinking? I don't understand that there's a concept that I've never quite grasped or it doesn't seem right. Did you have any of those that you were aware of at the time? 

 

Amanda [00:27:51] No, none. I was 100% sure that everything that was said to me and everything was given to me was the truth. I didn't question anything. I was I was I didn't like the culture that that like I said, the perfect mix of the girls in the way, you know. But I, I questioned nothing. Maybe that was the reason for my big push, because I didn't question anything. And I, I remember one of my testimony, like bearing your testimony on the on Sunday, I remember going up and saying, like, people say they believe this, they believe this. They believe I don't believe this. I know it. 

 

Brian [00:28:30] I know. 

 

Amanda [00:28:31] And I said that with the fact and I didn't know it at that time in my mindset. So that's why it was like a punching weird like I metaphor that it's like this big bubble that's just full of I'm like my first semester, our first year outside of the US building with information, information, information and getting new friends, learning new ways of thinking. But like, I still knew the Mormon Church to be true. But that guy, he hit me and he burst. It all opened. It was the strangest sensation. 

 

Brian [00:29:04] So was there anything else going on at that time of your life that would have suggested that you were primed for this other than you were you were in New York, you were outside, you had non LDS friends and that you were getting a little bit more open and a little bit more interested into their lives and say this person will never convert. It's a good person and they drink coffee. Mm hmm. 

 

Amanda [00:29:28] Was wasn't I think I think that's mainly it is the the empathy I was feeling for other people. And it was mainly that this person is not going to be in the celestial kingdom with me. Like, that's not fair. That's not fair. Like the fairness. So it was questioning the fairness a little bit, you know, that that it but that didn't happen until I went into to New York and made friends who were not Mormon. So. 

 

Brian [00:29:58] That was. Yeah. I want to ask you about the anger, too, because for me, part of the anger was how? Anger at the people that pretended to know that stood there and said, I know, or which was me. Right, too. But you can't ignore that. So there's some anger at the church. There's some anger at some of the whitewashed history. There's some anger about not being full and open disclosure. But I have a lot of anger at myself. I was because no one forced me to join the church. No one forced me to stay in the church. No one was forcing me, preventing me from leaving. But I was angry at myself for. In all other areas of my life, I am a fairly critical thinker. But for some reason, under the umbrella of religion, it's just everything. Well, it is. And we don't even need to ask. And I think I started getting angry at myself, like, why did you never ask me? I had a couple of things on my shelf that bothered me a little bit, but I never asked. I never thought, Well, I wonder if that's the case or you hear things. It's like, Oh, that's just anti-Mormon literature, is it? Or is it just literature? Is it is it just history? So I was angry at myself for not questioning it earlier. I was also angry at myself for for being that person on the other side of the conversation for so long that when someone had fallen and in my eyes they had fallen and they were going through difficult times and they were moving away from the church, I would show up on their front porch and say, Is everything okay? We love you, we're praying for you, and just totally not getting the picture. So I had all that anger wrapped up in mine and it sounds like I mean, did that does that resonate with any of you as well or. 

 

Amanda [00:31:58] Yeah, for me, I mean, I may have, but I don't I didn't have anger against myself. I don't remember having anger against myself, but I could see how how you can. But I don't think you should put anger on yourself. I think it's a it's it's it's in it's deep in our human beings to want to to to want to know what happens after this life. And so having some sort of answers like what the Mormon Church is provide or any religion provides anything, you know, giving you answers. You get you get pushed into this this vision. And that vision is so perfect and right that it doesn't make sense for someone to not not accept it. You can't even think someone wouldn't accept it. So, I mean, you shouldn't be I don't know. You've probably gotten gotten over that. You shouldn't be angry at yourself for being in that mindset because it's just so natural to be in that mindset. Yes, but. 

 

Brian [00:32:57] It's also very closed minded and not very empathetic of what others are going through. Well, I mean, I was in the bishopric when I kind of made the switch. I was in a bishopric. I wasn't in my freshman year of college. I'm older. I and I've been that person on the other side of those interviews saying, well, we're praying for you and just not getting the fact that. That doesn't that. 

 

Amanda [00:33:20] Doesn't help them. But in your heart at that time, you really thought that that your prayers would help this person and that you really thought that this person needed that. And so that was your perspective at that time? 

 

Brian [00:33:34] I yeah. 

 

Amanda [00:33:36] No, I don't know. 

 

Brian [00:33:38] It's rough. Okay. Anything more you want to say about that chapter? 

 

Amanda [00:33:43] No, I'm just. I know a lot of people go through that that I had, you know, cousin, cousin reach out. I had because they knew I went through the same thing. It's rough, but there is there's many people going through that. And there's another another side is that. Yeah, we could close that to. 

 

Brian [00:34:08] Look at this one question that will close it because I know this, this still affects you in a different way. But people when they leave the LDS Church or maybe any religion for some reason, people think that, well, you want to get everybody else to leave, too. And I found that to be absolutely not the case. I have found in almost every in every instance, actually, not almost in every instance, people are like, hey, if it's working for you, good for you. I am not here to convert to convince that you're wrong. I'm not going to hold up a mirror and ask you the questions. I'm not going to hand you a pamphlet and say, Have you ever questioned the church? However, I also know that there are several people that said I had a cousin reach out to me because I knew I went through this and they were questioning. They were, how do you run that balance of being outside, not wanting to be the cause? I mean, one of my biggest concern is that I would be the reason why someone would leave and they would have to go through all that pain with their family and community and everything else. The last thing I would want for someone, however, if they're there, I would love to have a conversation or a hand or something that says, What can I do to help? And by the way, I know it's probably not praying for you. 

 

Amanda [00:35:22] So yeah, that's exactly how I felt. I did not want to be someone's influence to leave to the dark side, you know, like I never wanted to be that I would never like I'd go up to him and be like, Hey, is the Mormon Church not working for you? Come to me. Come here. I'll always further the stuff to you to get you, you know? No, I never wanted to be that because I never wanted to be viewed as the bad influence, you know? My, my, my. The what I was to my parents. I did not want to be someone who drove someone else from the family with me to the dark side. If they want. If they needed help. Yes, of course I would. I would love to talk to someone and help them out, but I. There is. Yeah, I think I think some these kind of frames frameworks of being part of a church of a collective. It's natural, it's needed. You need to feel together with other people. And so that's why you have community religion. You have you know, you find it in different ways. The thing is, religion has been such a strong way of finding that community. And so I would never want to pull someone from that, if that's. But they their community. Right. Yeah. Okay. 

 

Brian [00:36:44] So let me let me switch gears now. 

 

Amanda [00:36:47] Mm hmm. 

 

Brian [00:36:48] Talking about community, you just moved from Mexico to Argentina. Couple weeks. 

 

Amanda [00:36:54] I know. I've been there a couple of months now. Couple of. 

 

Brian [00:36:55] Months now. You've been there a couple of months. You're in the middle of nowhere. I mean, you're out in the village. 

 

Amanda [00:37:02] I mean, if people watch this video. Oh, we're doing construction. So there's an outhouse there. But I mean. 

 

Brian [00:37:09] Who is your community now? 

 

Amanda [00:37:12] My community now is my husband's Argentinean friends, which have now become my friends. 

 

Brian [00:37:19] Because you're close to his hometown. 

 

Amanda [00:37:21] I'm very close to his hometown. Argentinians, which are a lovely, lovely culture here. Yeah, my community is that right now. Physically, I still keep like I've traveled all over the world and have built such bonding experiences with so many people that I need to stay in touch. So I connect digitally, I go visit them. I, you know, this sort of stuff. But here. Yeah. So Santiago's family, his friends, his high school, his high school, college friends, Argentinians are like they're the Italian Latinos. They they it's it's interesting. They have a very similar I've traveled to different lived in different countries in Latin America and around the world. And I feel like. Argentineans are very similar to the Americans and in in a way that they both left Europe. And so they come kind of with this European base mindset, but to a land where it's been expanded with freedom and ways to go outside of the box and innovation and being a little more like cowboy like and and rustic and and so it's, it's I see a lot of similar features in the cultures. So I do, I feel more closer to the people here than for example, when I was in Mexico is a lot harder. The culture is not as similar as what I'm used to. I mean, I could get into more about that, but yeah. 

 

Brian [00:39:06] So yeah. So while we're talking about deep internal changes, tell me a little bit about about your views and your concerns of being the. The Great White Savior or moving out. And because you want to be out and help and you've lived in a lot of poorer parts of the world and your your work involves a lot of engagement in the community and trying to help others. But I also know that there's a little bit of a guilt there and a role you're conscientious that you don't want to fall into. Let's let's talk about that for a sec. 

 

Amanda [00:39:47] Yeah, I can I can also talk about a few moments that that started that. Go where? 

 

Brian [00:39:52] Go where you want to start there. That's great. 

 

Amanda [00:39:55] So the first place I actually lived for longer than for a long term outside the U.S. was Argentina in 2009. So when I graduated college in New York, 28 perfect. Student There were no jobs in the crisis. I, I tried as hard as I could to get any kind of entry level job. Nothing. The economic crisis. And so I had my best friends reach out to me on Facebook and be like, Hey, let's go teach English and learn Spanish in Latin America. And I said, Yeah, let's do it. I sounded so cool. Also, I had a lot of international friends in college and I get jealous if they spoke Spanish or or Portuguese or something. And I felt like such a stupid American and only speak one language. And so I was like, Yeah. And so we first went to Costa Rica and and then Costa Rica for me was, was American Beach Party land. And I didn't want that. That wasn't how I envisaged my life abroad. I didn't want to be on the beach and speak English with everyone. I wanted to actually learn something. And so I heard about Argentina through a friend in college and he's like, Yeah, if you want to speak Spanish, go to Argentina. They don't speak English there. It's also an urban environment. I was feeling like I need to be more urban instead of beach. So I moved to Buenos Aires and I started dating my now husband, Santiago, which we actually meant. We met in Costa Rica the night I bought my ticket to Argentina. My friend was like, Let's party and find the Argentinians in the hostel and to make friends. And so we found three Argentinians and one of them is the guy I started dating. Anyways, that's another story. But we, so we, we started dating in 2009 in Argentina and here I was, this young, naive American girl who just wanted to have like this. I want I was I wanted to have a fun learning experience on to have my Latino boyfriend. I wanted to learn Spanish. And so I was taking I was teaching Spanish, I mean, teaching English, learning Spanish and dating this guy. But you can't expect to the mindset that changes. You know, for the first time in my life, I just saw poverty. But felt it and was part of it. Like you, you could like a lot of Americans or Western or you know, you you go and you travel to other countries. You spend a few weeks and you see poor people on the streets begging for food and you feel bad. So you give them money, you give them food, and then you go home and you don't think about them again. You felt good because you did that right. That person maybe had a bite to eat, but is still suffering. Right? And so, like but immersing in that culture and also Santiago helped me. He was a very leftist, very like he'd go to a lot of, you know, marches and rallies and like I'd be part of this leftist group to, like, bring this political movements. And I learned a lot through that. I didn't know, I didn't know anything about. I felt so ignorant because they would talk about international relations and, and how the US government is stealing from them and stuff. And I didn't know anything, so I felt so ignorant and so stupid when people would talk about these conversations because I was like, What kind of education did I have? This I didn't know anything. And so I started to read new books about imperialism of the big countries coming in and taking on colonialism. And it was my first time experiencing it and learning about it and and like I had no idea that my government was behind a bunch of, like the killing of thousands during the dictatorship and in Argentina. And no, no idea the CIA. I didn't know any of this stuff. And, and so I started to like read a bunch of books that how bad the US government was involved in this. And then and then I started to learn like all these layers of international history of, of relations and a lot of is pulling resources to make your country richer and this person this. So I read the I mean it's the same book that Hugo Chavez gave to Obama when he came to visit Venezuela. It's called Let's Venezuela, Opposite América Latina The Open Veins of Latin America. It's a perspective of the Latin America continent, the continents from the air that they are the open veins and they're their resources, natural resource rich and the and the Western, the more industrial nations would take from that. And it caused us multi layers of issues and poverty. And so I, my, my mind was open. I started to learn about this stuff. And also I think Santiago helped me like I was like, I don't know anything. So I needed, I needed to study. And I also. 

 

Brian [00:45:07] Experienced that poverty. 

 

Amanda [00:45:08] Yeah, I it was it was such a naive experience, but it was strong. Like I, I had a problem with my bank card because the crisis, my bank was bought by another bank and I didn't have access to my dollars for three weeks or so. And I was making hardly anything. I was teaching English, but they wouldn't give me more hours. And so I for a few weeks I had barely any money to. To buy food. And I was to. I was too stubborn to too. I couldn't ask Santiago for help because he was poor. Like, I'm not going to ask someone from here for help when I'm the white person who has to come and help people. So I felt like I was the one who had the help. And I couldn't ask my parents because asking them for like $100 looked like I was a drug addict, you know? And so I wouldn't I wouldn't ask for help for money when I had no access to my dollars. And so I, I remember I experienced hunger like I never experienced before. I start myself because I wouldn't ask anyone for help. And it was such a strong experience. I remember I when I finally got paid, I know when I was when I was hungry, I was angry. I was rude to people. I was it was it was so strong. And I remember when I when I got paid, I went and bought this massive state. It's called a milanese. That's a it's a cutlet. Huge. I went to a restaurant by myself, ate it, spent almost all my paycheck because I was so starving. And as I'm eating it, like. I watch kids begging for money and I'm like, Should I give it to them? No, I eat it myself, you know. And so then. So I start questioning all this, like. Like I didn't have I barely had enough money. Like, I shouldn't have afforded this, but I was so hungry. I don't know. My mind just went in in so many ways. And I just knew I had to go study. I had to study more because I had no idea what I was doing. And so I, I went I applied to some schools and did a master's program. I left my my love behind. I left Santiago, which is another story to go study international development, to understand more of the relations between these countries and understand more of why. Why are people suffering? Why? Because I'm white and could speak English perfectly. Why are you hiring me for this job of teaching English when I could get paid more than an engineer who'd had eight years of school? Now I see a lot of this kind of questioning started, so I knew I needed to study. 

 

Brian [00:47:56] So when I looked to go back to school, you didn't look for the U.S.? 

 

Amanda [00:48:00] No, I didn't. I wanted to keep learning. I, I wanted to be in Europe. I had some friends in Europe that I made from my college experience. And I, I wanted to live in Europe. So I found the school in Brussels, and I, I studied there. No. 

 

Brian [00:48:21] Okay. So tell us a little bit about what you've done with that sense. I mean, what's what's your focus? What what is the good girl doing now? And and and has it made a difference? And what are the concerns that have come up since? I mean, you've tried to get yourself out of that role and and be very aware of that role. 

 

Amanda [00:48:41] Yeah. So I got my degree. I was lucky to land an internship with the World Food Program, which is part of the United Nations. They have the office in Brussels and as many native English speakers, a lot of the career you find in international institutions is in writing because a lot of them are English based. You know, the U.N. needs English writers. And so I became a communications person, donor relations and communications for first with the World Food Program and then with with UNICEF. So that means that I write about the work they do so that we could communicate it to those who have money to keep funding it. And I first worked I went I went to Honduras. I worked a year in Honduras. I first worked in Brussels for a couple of years, and then Honduras. And then I went to New York. I found a job there with UNICEF, and I worked there for three years. And then I went to Ethiopia. That's a that's a strong story, which was actually the first time I, I saw it's a real poverty like culture so different than your own and people really suffering but suffering in a. I don't know. I've learned a lot over this is that people don't need to have like perfect iPhones or like perfect books or clothes or or whatnot. But. But suffering in the sense that. They they don't have the same opportunities as I do to education. They don't have the same opportunities as I to make a dollar, to make the dollars. They don't have the same opportunity because they're raised in a place where their education system is so shitty that they just don't like. Like, I remember I go in Ethiopia to two schools and because I was writing about a lot of the education work there and they're learning like ABC one, two, three, like ten years old and they'd and they're not. There's, there's an opportunity to like it's gotten a lot better over the years, but there's a there's a I don't know where I'm going with this, but there's an there's a. There's one side to it. If this a country like Ethiopia is going to be able to compete in anything in the world, you have to grow up the education of the sector and they are so far behind. They don't have the ability to do that. And it's not fair. The world is not fair because they don't have the ability to do that because they're not as skilled in these skill sets that are required for for world interactions and and relations and companies. And and it's just they're not they don't have the skill set for it. That's one thing. Another thing is. A lot of a lot of people are happy and fine with not being part of that world dominance and having their own and being able to, like, just eat a good meal and be happy with your family and and not being able to suffer on a, on a basic level. And most of the time, it's fine in countries like and like in across Africa. Most of the time, people that level of people are fine. They eat well. They, they're happy. They have their families. Yeah. May not look as fancy and rich in like a perfect toilet. It is tough, but they're happy. They're fine. You know, the real problems come when there's a. There is a drought or there is a conflict and then there's an emergency hit. And that's when the major, major issues, you see the inequalities quite strong then. Anyway it's I could ramble a lot but I don't have any specific questions about. 

 

Brian [00:53:03] Yeah, so what. 

 

Amanda [00:53:03] Would you. 

 

Brian [00:53:04] Recommend. I mean obviously living in the U.S. and having grown up in the U.S. and in comfort with all the niceties. And your only concern is that your friends got a new iPhone and you didn't have the new one yet. How do you get to that mindset that you were just discussing and while you are still in the U.S.? Or do you have to just go live for a time outside of the U.S. in one of those areas and say, now I get it, because I don't think a visit there does it? It opens your eyes a little bit and you want to leave some spare change and feel like you did a good job. But what can you do to open your eyes a little broader to what the world is experiencing outside of your world? 

 

Amanda [00:53:53] I think living among people and not just and also when when people travel to other countries, they live among people like themselves. So that's just that's a natural thing. 

 

Brian [00:54:03] Day at the Marriott okay. 

 

Amanda [00:54:05] Yeah or like you go and you all your friends are international or all your friend, but that's a natural thing. You want to feel connected to someone who has the same education level as you, the same. You could talk about the same things as you and stuff like that. And I still I don't understand deep poverty. I don't because I never actually lived that. I saw people and I interviewed them and I tried to understand what they went through. But that I don't understand. I don't. But but I've learned that certain things are not important, like the new iPhone, the new the a lot of these we call them first world problems. Right. They're not big love are not major issues. You don't you don't need to have the latest the latest iPhone or that. But it does help you. I don't know. There's this is a difficult thing to go into because for me, I. You know, I when I was in my twenties, I just wanted to help and help and help and help. Right. And I and I didn't know what to do, but I. I wanted to help them mainly to make me feel better, I think. And I learned the poverty and I tried to write about it. So to get more money and and for that and and I still think that's important, but. I also think that. Certain things. I know where I'm going with this. I question a lot. Now I question a lot. 

 

Brian [00:55:41] Like. Like what kind of questions? 

 

Amanda [00:55:47] Like. Like, Do we need to go into Guatemala and make stoves for the people there? Or perhaps we should for the people who don't have stoves, you know? That's one thing that I know the Rotary Club does. They'll go into a place and and help that way or let's go into this community and build schools, you know, or a lot of these things like help. You feel better because you could tangibly see something different. But I think what more needs to happen is really helping a. A government have the capacity to provide for their own citizens and. That's the hardest way thing to change, like really systematic long term changes. And it's so hard and it takes forever. And the UN does try to do it and institutions really try to, but you know, you make so much progress and then and then a stupid president comes in the next term and ruins it all. And I think the change really comes from systemic and but unfortunately, people want to see a change in a couple of years. Right. So they come in and they build a school in one little community. And that community looks great from the outside, but. Is that really going to help them come at an equal equal level ground as as the rest of the world, you know? I don't know. 

 

Brian [00:57:26] Yeah, I can't remember the book that I was reading. There were a couple of them that deal with working in social issues around the world and trying to improve lives. And they say a lot of times when people get involved without understanding the system, they actually make it much worse. And they talk about a system in. It was in Asia where they were donating bikes for girls because the girls didn't have access to education and it was too far away. So they just couldn't get there. So they were donating bikes so they could ride bikes and get an education. On the surface, that sounds great, but these girls were getting beat up and raped because somebody else wanted their bike. 

 

Amanda [00:58:11] Yeah, a lot of this stuff you have to be super careful about because you're dealing with so many cultural and cultural issues and deep thing, you know, and change takes sometimes forever. I remember when I was in Ethiopia, I, I went to write a story about girls in a community that over half the girls are cut, the female genital mutilation, their cuts, and so they can never feel pleasure from sex in their lives. And they're they're cut. As soon as they're in they're able they have their menstruation, right? They're cut or even earlier. And it's a huge practice in these communities, in many communities around the world. And I remember talking to these girls and the change I saw was through the schools. The schools brought in women teachers to teach them that they they didn't need to be cut and that they could go that well, that they could go to school and have a different life. And that. That cutting is bad and. And they they and I saw the importance of education because a lot of times the women, when they turn 12 or 13, they'll they'll they'll go home and do their whole house duties. And they're not allowed to do, you know, to be to go to school, to get an education, anything like this. And I saw what really made the change was working through the education system in these communities to find women teachers. And so that they can help each generation of girls. And the stories of these girls make that make a difference in changing and then finding leaders in the community to to tell people it's wrong to cut women. And that's where the real change happens when you do it through a system like the school. But there's going to be repercussions. So I heard about, you know, like some of the school teachers were threatened by local, local community members that they shouldn't be teaching this stuff, that their girls need to come home and they shouldn't go to school and it shouldn't be. And these women are married at like 13, 14 years old, right into their cups. And they're married and. But where the real change happened was through the actual system that is going to stay there. The education system will stay there. Right. And so instead of coming in and and bringing telling people it's wrong to cut it, it's wrong to, you know, whatever way you do it, you have to use the system that's already enabled there, that's already set up and try to influence that system to stop these harmful practices from happening. 

 

Brian [01:01:08] Yeah. And you have seen success in that area? Or at least I did. 

 

Amanda [01:01:11] I have. Yeah, I've seen some success, especially when it comes to I guess I was a child marriage for girls. A lot of the you know, you look at the child marriage rates from ten years ago and it's changed so much. Women are going to school. Women are learning that it's that they have an opportunity to do something else, though it's hard sometimes in the community and social pressures to be the house maker, the wife, the stay at home, this sort of stuff. But, you know, I think I see changes happening. I saw. But it takes, you know, has to be systemic and it has to be cultural and has to you have to understand the cultural practices to make the if if if a practice is hard, it is harmful. It has to be systemic change. 

 

Brian [01:02:02] Do you think that people overall are becoming more open minded? 

 

Amanda [01:02:08] Who? 

 

Brian [01:02:11] To people in general. 

 

Amanda [01:02:14] I think sometimes we're we're we're we suffer from information overload like. Open minded for me. I'm always becoming open minded, but I think it's an information overload too, because I sometimes just want to have my way of thinking and and just be happy with my life, you know, and just not have to worry about others pains or other things. Another thing, you know. But you learn about so many issues and so much stuff happening and so many ways of thought. That it's hard for me, but I don't know about others. I don't know if people are becoming more open minded. I think, you know, if I come from personal experience, I think my family has become, for example, a more open minded. With me and my way of life more accepting. I think that's. I don't know. What do you think? 

 

Brian [01:03:20] I don't know. I question that. I mean, you look at on some hand, you mentioned earlier, I think one of the things that changes people's perspectives is the ability to question. And in a safe environment or where they feel like they have a little bit of safety, they have some support. If they do question something, that they're not going to be left on their own. 

 

Amanda [01:03:47] Hmm. 

 

Brian [01:03:47] I think that's part of it. But I think that another big part of it is the idea of putting a face with with a concern that you may not have understood before. A lot of the modern social discussions and social media back in the in the eighties, it was very difficult for anyone with LGBTQ issues to say, I have LG because they would be called names, they would be shunned, they would be everybody thought that it was contagious, that that was just the beginning. It opened a door. It just as did just gets worse from there. And pretty soon you're raping babies and just totally didn't understand it because they never knew anyone or they that they were aware of that that they could relate to. And you mentioned you could put a face to some of these people. Now, as a freshman in New York, it's like, hey, this isn't a member of the church, but they're a good person. And this person drinks coffee and this one drinks alcohol a lot sometimes. And they're still a good person and they're never going to convert and get on the full, straight and narrow path of the LDS church. That is that has told us time and again there is only one way. But we've become, as we meet these other people says, yeah, that's doesn't quite seem right. I don't agree with that statement or that policy because I know someone who's queer and they are not the devil and they're not going to start raping babies and they're not going to it's this is an amazing individual that is only slightly different than the rest of us. And now that I can put a face to it, I have to come to terms with that. Is that true? What I've been taught the whole time and you have the Black Lives Matters that are out there. It's like now we're seeing faces. People know who George Floyd is, unfortunately, but also fortunately, because they're thinking, hey, this is a person, it's not an issue. 

 

Amanda [01:05:58] But I also think at the same time, I'm not very I mean, I follow us issues in politics, but I'm not as absorbed as like in it as as most most people probably listening to this. But I think that but I think that's one thing that's a challenge in our digital modern time is that people have a certain moralities and a certain mindset. And yeah, you could put an image to certain situations. But I think unless you yourself has someone in your lives that you could empathize with that you know, you won't be open minded to their cause unless you have that empathy. Because one thing is that I think in our digital world, what companies, what organizations, what a lot of people use are digital targeting tools. And so if you believe and you like a certain way, you're going to be pushed to keep believing that certain way. Sure. So if you believe that, for example, Mexicans are bad, immigration is bad, I like that they're they're they're all bad. Right. You're you're going to see posts on your Google, on your Facebook, on you're going to see stuff to keep that influence because you are categorized in these platforms as someone who thinks this and this and this, you're categorized as that. So you're going to always see stuff to influence that thought, right? 

 

Brian [01:07:41] Yeah. Even so Griffey that your browser is in. 

 

Amanda [01:07:44] Exactly. So you, you are influenced that way and so like that's sometimes make me question like so I know for example when I browse any digital platform, I see stuff that are about like, I don't know, like I like green climate change stuff and I see like how to plan to make an ecosystem in your backyard, how to do how to plant seeds and reuse your tomato seeds for this. Like, I see a lot of this stuff, right? But it's because I'm categorized as that and I see that and I like that because I actually want to learn more about this. Right. But on the other side, someone's probably seeing something on the anti climate effort that, oh, jobs are being stolen. 

 

Brian [01:08:34] There is no global warming. 

 

Amanda [01:08:36] And so and so like that's that's what's tough is because yeah, we say we have more information and more open minded, but we're seeing what we want to see. And I have and it's sometimes hard because with different mindsets within my own family or a extended family, you know, with all these these issues like abortion, like like health care, like all this, like it's so hard to because even though you could empathize with a family member, you're so pushed through these digital. Like our digital our phones on to to keep a certain mindset. And so that's hard because we may say we're more open minded, but I don't know because we're not receiving the same information. 

 

Brian [01:09:21] Yeah, that's true. And at the same time, when I think that people are becoming a little bit more open minded and I think some of these things, LGBTQ rights are becoming a little bit more vocal and a little bit more accepted. On the other hand, politics are very much. As far apart as they've ever been. Yeah. And and a lot of it, I think, is because of the way they receive their information and their social media is is pushing them further, laughter Further. Right. And yeah, it never pushes everybody towards the middle or rarely. 

 

Amanda [01:09:54] Yeah. 

 

Brian [01:09:56] So. But what does that say about us? That's not good. 

 

Amanda [01:10:01] So maybe we should just say goodbye to social media. 

 

Brian [01:10:06] I think there's too much money. There is the problem. Right. Once you can monetize it, then that becomes a difficult thing. Hopefully through discussions like this with with different people. That's kind of the whole purpose of this podcast is to talk with people you may not have an opportunity to engage with and see their perspective on the world. 

 

Amanda [01:10:26] Yeah. 

 

Brian [01:10:28] What do you think, Sutton? What, if anything, do you miss about the U.S.? I mean, I know you come back and visit everything. Is there anything there you miss or you're like, No, this is so good. Life is beautiful. I am free. I myself, I'm around like I'm around people that are just very open and warm and. 

 

Amanda [01:10:45] I miss sometimes. Okay. So Argentinians like to talk for a long time. Like, they, they don't. They like they'll get together and they'll have dinner and they'll just have dinner and just talk or get together as friends and just sit together and talk. And it's nice to talk about everything. You learn so much about the political system, about the issues of your family, about this. You and I think that's something that we miss in a lot of our culture in the in the US is just sitting and talking about things. But at the same time I, I speak Spanish, I love it, but my brain gets tired and sometimes I miss talking in English a lot. I do. With Santiago, it's fine. But sometimes in that group, you know, I do miss that. That's just a basic thing. Also, I sometimes miss activities because because there's so much just sitting and talking about stuff I miss. Like in for example, my family will play cards or we'll go play a stupid game like catch phrase or whatever. I'll complain about those, but sometimes I do miss them. Like some of these Americans are very much like, Let's do this, let's do this, just do this, this, this, this, this. When here they're more like, Oh, let's just relax and joke and talk and have a good time worrying about it. Yeah, I think a balance is needed and sometimes I miss that, that the activity based fun, but too much of it drives me insane. So yeah that's. 

 

Brian [01:12:17] Well, yeah. When you're taking your kids to soccer four times a week and football three times a week and lacrosse eight times a week, and then you've got to do scouts and young men's and young womens and everything else. I mean, when you have time to sit and enjoy a meal with your family, you don't. 

 

Amanda [01:12:33] Yeah. 

 

Brian [01:12:34] You grab it at a drive through from one location to the next. 

 

Amanda [01:12:36] Right, exactly. 

 

Brian [01:12:37] Definitely over engaged in those things. 

 

Amanda [01:12:40] I think so. But it's nice to have a balance. You need a balance. And and I think that's. Basic message in life is to balance it. 

 

Brian [01:12:50] Yeah. Yeah. Reevaluate and and hopefully question. Right. Say yeah. There's, there's something to be said for asking the right question. I think a lot of education and research is learning how to ask the right question. 

 

Amanda [01:13:05] No, I think so, too. It's good. So. Okay. Yeah. 

 

Brian [01:13:13] Anything else you want to talk about? 

 

Amanda [01:13:15] Um. I mean, there's so many things that I think I've taken up a lot of time. 

 

Brian [01:13:20] Don't worry about that. We can sit and talk forever. I don't have a soccer game today. Lacrosse Saturday. So. 

 

Amanda [01:13:26] Yeah, I think the theme of. Of international relations. It's I know I blabber to lie I didn't get into many details, but it's a tough one because I, I, I don't know how I feel sometimes, you know, like that we should come and be the help or we should step back and let people help themselves. And that's always that's been a thing I've been questioning a lot. A lot of people hate the U.N. They say the U.N. shouldn't be there. The people can just do it themselves. No, but the history of colonialism and for years has caused such inequalities that they do need support to get back on an equal playing field. And that's the truth. But there are certain things that I see that. But sometimes aid is not needed, sometimes it's very much needed. So it's a it's a difficult one. I know I didn't I wasn't very clear on that throughout the interview, but I it's because I question all the time everything. Yeah. 

 

Brian [01:14:35] So well, it sounds like there are so many things with, with the changing politics. I mean, international, it's hard enough to keep a little a city functioning well. But when you have neighboring cities and neighboring states and neighboring countries and all of the leaders are changing every four years or six years or whatever the time frame is, and it takes a year or two to build up a relationship and get introduced, and then it takes a year or two to actually get a program moving even started. Then it takes another ten years to actually implement it and we need results by the next election. Is is it almost impossible? I mean, is it just is there something we can really do to affect our international neighbors in a positive way other than just some media hype? And we took some pictures and isn't this nice? We built a new dam. And that's something I'm going to take credit for before I get ousted from my office next door. 

 

Amanda [01:15:34] So many layers and so much. Yeah, it's a tough one, but but it's it is interesting to work. It's nice to work in the international. I think I'll always work and stuff international or something related just because I like I like being involved and learning about new mindsets and new ways of thinking. And, and one, I think one major thing is like I, I have learned that a lot of times Americans, I guess, other cultures come to think that their mindset is correct and they come with a very like ego. In in traveling terms and a lot of my friends. They they look at Americans who are traveling and be like and look down on him like, why are you so I. So, for example, I had a friend ask me the other day, she goes, Are all Americans so loud and obnoxious in life and want to party all the time and like that's what they they do when they go international. And and I don't know those those people that I think about it is most Americans, when they travel, when they're international, they go to the Bahamas, they go to Costa Rica for a week. And they're they have such stressful life. We just want to go and party. Right. And they keep their mindset and don't think of the others around them like the local culture. And they just come to have a party or to see something and take photos. And I think I've tried to not see that that's been a big goal of mine, is to I don't want to be that person. I want to be someone who understands and tries to see how you're seeing. And that's why I've spent so long in other other countries, too. It's because I want to understand what these people, other mindsets. I don't want to bring my mindset and push it on someone else. I want to be part of of something new, something different. Yeah. 

 

Brian [01:17:52] Well, I think I think you want to you want to blend in and learn what they have to offer and get a real feel for what it's like to live here. Instead of saying, I'm going to take my iPod and all my electronics, I'm going to go for a week and I'm going to pretend like I'm in the U.S., but I want to experience Argentina. It's like you're not experience Argentina, you're experiencing the Marriott and. 

 

Amanda [01:18:18] Yeah. 

 

Brian [01:18:18] You've seen some pictures, but you could have bought postcards and could have seen any of those on Google Earth and stay at home. 

 

Amanda [01:18:25] Yeah, but. 

 

Brian [01:18:26] It takes more than a week. I mean, like you said, the traveling Americans, they have a lot of stress and they they go on vacation to relax and to let off some steam. But they also have like two or three weeks of vacation a year and not exactly. 

 

Amanda [01:18:39] So it's like. 

 

Brian [01:18:40] Once, right? It's like so. 

 

Amanda [01:18:43] Yeah. 

 

Brian [01:18:44] Which is something that needs to be dealt with. I don't know if that's. 

 

Amanda [01:18:47] Another thing that. 

 

Brian [01:18:48] Improving life, I mean. 

 

Amanda [01:18:51] Yeah. So many things. So, anyway, it's. 

 

Brian [01:18:53] Do you? I know, I know. Budget's a little concern, but do you travel a lot just to travel, or do you just like, hey, I'm going to live here for six months and I'm going to move there for two months and I'm going to stop there for a month. On the way over here. 

 

Amanda [01:19:06] I travel just to travel to sometimes within a country or just to travel to another country. I do. Like when I was in Mexico, we went to Guatemala for a couple of days, five days to see Guatemala. 

 

Brian [01:19:22] So when you set up where you were going and what you were going to do and where you were going to stay, you weren't on TripAdvisor. You weren't. How did you figure out where you were going to stay and what you were going to see when you got there? How did you handle that? 

 

Amanda [01:19:34] I sometimes TripAdvisor yeah, like you do, but like, yeah, Airbnb friends who've been there before, you look up on Google, you look like a lot of the ways that a lot of people do it. But I think I look for something different than maybe most most American travelers. What the travelers what I try to go to a place where I know the language too. That helps so much. So going to the Spanish speaking countries is nice because you can look up things in another language and things understand things in in another language like I would love to. One thing, one concept I like is it's called slow traveling instead of fast travel. And I go to a place for at least a month and I'd love to start doing that. That's a concept like I want to I want to go to Japan, for example. I don't want to just go there. 

 

Brian [01:20:33] Plans to go to Asia where nothing. Yeah. Failure. 

 

Amanda [01:20:37] Yeah. And but I don't want to just I want to live for at least a month or two to, to, to, to, to, to understand and be there and like, maybe learn a few phrases and speak a little bit of Japanese. Um, I'd love to do some slow traveling. I think traveling is amazing to get to know other other mindsets and stuff, but try and not everyone has opportunity to do the type of traveling I've done where I've lived in other countries. That's that's not for everyone. 

 

Brian [01:21:09] Well, yeah, but that didn't fall in your lap either. That was kind of a decent choice and have a plan to, to create those things for yourself. And yeah, and I know when you travel, you go visit people, you know, that are scattered all over the place because you work together in countries all over the place. 

 

Amanda [01:21:26] So yeah, yeah. For example, the next countries I want to go to our countries that I have friends and who can actually show me and get to know if I'm from Lebanon. I want to go to Lebanon and spend a month there and I feel like he'll host me for a month. But that's a that's another thing. Yeah. Ah yeah. Like there's. Another I want to go to. I know things aren't great right now, but I do want to go to Russia when I was friends that my best friend friends from Russia and you know, we got to wait for things to go. I know they're beautiful people and mindset there to see. Not thinking of current politics right now and what leaders are doing and the decisions they're making. But but the people and the way people act and the culture, I'd love to, you know, these sort of things, but because I have a friend there who could actually help me and show me where and and and understand something more authentic to what it is and not what's planned. And a tour guide. Yeah. 

 

Brian [01:22:25] I don't need to do the top three things the trip advisor says to do. Show me what's actually Russian. Now take me to the places that you would go if you are visiting, you know, for the first time. Yeah. 

 

Amanda [01:22:35] Yeah, yeah. 

 

Brian [01:22:37] So one more question. 

 

Amanda [01:22:39] Okay. 

 

Brian [01:22:40] What or who or what force? Higher power or internal power. Otherwise, what guides your life right now? Is it? Is it. Karma is a kismet. Is there a God? Is it? 

 

Amanda [01:22:58] That's a good. That's a deep question. Yeah, I. What guides my life? I. I think. I read a phrase in a book I was reading the other day. It was about you may you did you recommended to me. Maybe it didn't is it's about building a cathedral in in Europe. It's Ken Follett and Follett. Yes, Ken Follett. And I read books and I read the first book. And there was it's about this builder, Tom Builder. 

 

Brian [01:23:38] On builder. 

 

Amanda [01:23:39] Who wants to do is build this cathedral and build this, you know, build this great huge building that his only goal in life, you know, and he was going through the plans with the with the bishop. And, you know, the bishop asked why, why? Why do you want to do this? And he goes, because it will be beautiful like and like a beauty is different to many people. But I think life has to be beautiful and you find beauty in so many ways. And I try now to live in moments of beauty and little plans of beauty like now where we're we're reforming a house. And I and I love the ideas of trying to make little peace beautiful. And how do I make this design better? Or like, you know, I'm writing a book, I'm trying to make this beautiful. I'm trying to make little things. Beauty, you define beauty is something that brings you. I don't I don't know how you define it, but something that that causes an elevation of of awe and wonder of, I don't know. But but I think that I live to so that it will be beautiful. I don't know what's going to happen when I die. I don't know. And I don't think I'm supposed to know. I hope there is some other life form. I don't believe in death. I think that death that that death is the end all that there's I don't think there's such thing as end. I think life is about circulation and movement and transformation. And I don't I'm not saying I believe in reincarnation or anything like that, but I believe that that things need to continue to be movement and created and stagnant. Is is where. Ugly happens when you're stagnant and you're not growing and you're not created creating. And so I live my life by continuingly trying to create and to find beauty. And I think that that's a huge part of life. I think maybe, maybe when we die, we become a different form of something. Maybe. Maybe there's our energy becomes something different. Maybe, you know, like, I don't I don't think we're supposed to know that our consciousness is not that's a block there. That's not allowing us to know that. And I think that's meant to be there for some reason. But I don't believe that there are. If anyone has the perfect answer for that. They live my life by creating beauty, I guess. I try to. 

 

Brian [01:26:28] Tell me give me an example of something that's very simple that brings you pure joy. 

 

Amanda [01:26:34] Watching the office at night with somebody for the pure joy of cuddling with my kitty cat. Watching her like I don't know. I think. Seeing my being with my family, with laughing, joking with people and doing stupid things to have a good time of. I think playing tennis makes me happy where I'm learning tennis now that it's fun. I think eating chocolate makes me feel good. 

 

Brian [01:27:24] Dark chocolate milk. Chocolate. Dark dark chocolate. Real chocolate. 

 

Amanda [01:27:28] Dark with nuts. A little bit of salt and. Yeah. What else? I. You find your little things that bring joy, right? Yeah. 

 

Brian [01:27:47] I've got another question I tried before. I don't know how it works, but if you could have the answer to any one question right now that you knew for a certain what what would that question be? 

 

Amanda [01:28:00] If I can have the answer to anything. 

 

Brian [01:28:02] To anything. 

 

Amanda [01:28:10] That's a hard one because I don't I don't really want to too I don't I don't think I want to know what happens when I die. Okay. I don't I don't want to know. So it's not a question I want I don't want to know when I die. I don't think that's. Yeah, I don't want to know when a loved one dies. I don't want to know. I think that there's beauty in not knowing sometimes certain things and living in a state of wonder and something to look forward to. So I don't know what one question that would be because it's a hard one to ask. Sometimes I want to know, you know, you know, you have your your your identity and what people think of me. Did I do that well? Did I. Did. Do people think I was too selfish for that? Did I was I. You know, sometimes those kind of mindsets hit you, but in the end, that doesn't matter. Yeah. I can't answer that right now. 

 

Brian [01:29:15] Okay, that's fine. How about what books have had the biggest impact on your life, or what books will you think of the books? Yeah, books. Because, you know, you read and write and. 

 

Amanda [01:29:29] I am writing. Books. 

 

Brian [01:29:36] Or authors or. I mean. 

 

Amanda [01:29:40] Yeah. I read. Um, I always recommend this book to everyone is the God of small things. Forget her name. She's Indian. It is. A book about poverty in India and finding beauty in small things in life. And I just I read it twice, but it's been a while since I read it took a while. But I remember this really. Like, it's beautiful. Mike It's a, it's a harder read because it's not like a fast moving story. It's more deep about the beauty of small things, the god of small things that, that, that was. That's a good one. I also live by I like reading about motivational characters because it gets me motivational like like reading Harry Potter when I was little is huge. Everyone has this Harry Potter thing, you know, and I really, you know, made me want to. Do so much and and think mystically and the wonders what if, what if, what if? That sort of stuff. Like when I was reading the, you know, the recent ones, Cassie recommended the The Storm Lights Archive series. You know, some of those characters, you're like, yes, I could fight and become this that, you know, and or like or like the characters in the Game of Thrones. I'm a big I like reading some like fantasy stuff because because it's good they write like fantasy writers. They create a world that doesn't exist with these crazy characters that because their mind could just go in this crazy way to find, like, insane motivation and strength. And I think I like that because I want to be motivated to to be something great sometimes. And so that's why I sometimes these, these, this fantasy books, because it's someone's fantasy of achieving greatness, right? Yeah. That's fun. 

 

Brian [01:31:50] So I'm not going to ask you what what Hogwarts House you are in, but I do want to ask you what character you would be in Game of Thrones. 

 

Amanda [01:31:58] Game of Thrones. I mean, I actually never watched the last ones because I'm waiting for them to finish the book, so I don't even know what happens at the end of the game. The HBO series, I don't know. No one tell me. But that probably hurts. Good, but that's good. 

 

Brian [01:32:15] Yeah, I don't. I don't think you'll finish the book, though. I mean, I don't think he's. 

 

Amanda [01:32:19] I don't know then. Oh, and then also the that is another book when it was. Who would I be? I mean, I'm a strong woman. I got to be generous. Right. 

 

Brian [01:32:30] Okay. Okay. 

 

Amanda [01:32:32] With the dragons. Mother of dragons. Exactly. 

 

Brian [01:32:37] The unburnt. 

 

Amanda [01:32:39] Yeah. 

 

Brian [01:32:39] I love all the titles they get. 

 

Amanda [01:32:41] Yeah, it's a little dramatic. 

 

Brian [01:32:43] But it's awesome, right? I mean, we want to be that person, right? That's. That's the whole point of telling stories. And I know you're a huge storyteller at heart. I know you understand and recognize the power of of of story and in life as well as books. But. 

 

Amanda [01:33:00] Yeah. Yeah, I'm good. And I'm taking up time. All right, I will. 

 

Brian [01:33:08] This has been awesome. Thank you so much. Thanks. And I guess I'll talk with you tomorrow. 

 

Amanda [01:33:14] Okay? Okay. All right. Cool. Thanks, then. 

 

Brian [01:33:18] One more thing. I was going to stop. One more thing.