Aliyah - Positivity & Parenting

SYK Episode 110 - Aliyah

 

Brian [00:00:00] Today's conversation is the 10th episode of Strangers, You Know, podcast. Seven weeks ago, when I released my first conversation with Jackson, I was nervous, scared, and had no idea what to expect. Now we are approaching over 1000 downloads, including visitors from two dozen countries for the most part. Response has been very positive, especially from my many amazing guests who appreciated the opportunity to share their stories and the cathartic release of talking through so many dark experiences and deconstruction on a variety of issues. With this milestone, I am also working on adding new features to the website at WW W Strangers, You Know Podcast XCOM. You will soon be able to access Shownotes providing more information on my guests as well as topics we discuss in their conversations. I also have plans for releasing several special episodes exclusively for registered members of the website, so make sure you sign up for members only episodes and even an upcoming special live, in-person meet and greet, including many of my guests. Please be sure to share this podcast with your friends because once we hit 2500 downloads, I've got even more surprises. As always, I'd love to hear your feedback on our website and thank you for your support. 

 

Aliyah [00:01:18] There are like a few big things where I was and it all hit me at once. Okay. A big one was I was praying and if my answers were not exactly in line with what the Prophet said when I would read about that, it would say that my answer was from Satan or the adversary or not from God. And I was like, Well, I feel like I'm doing everything I'm supposed to be doing. I'm paying my tithing, and I was doing all of the things and that was really confusing for me. So at what point do we say that the prophet is guiding us in the wrong direction? At what point do we because everyone would always say, well, the prophet is human, he's going to make mistakes. But also his decisions affect our eternal salvation. So we kind of have to hold him to a higher standard. 

 

Brian [00:02:09] And he'll never lead you astray. Yeah, but he kind of. 

 

Aliyah [00:02:12] But he has it. Unless, like, everything that happened with the priesthood ban was was what God wanted. But then that was confusing for me because as God races is like, is he a racist God? Why won't anyone ever say that the priesthood ban was racist? 

 

Brian [00:02:35] Today's guest, Julia, talks about her doubts, cognitive dissonance and deconstruction of her faith, as well as the difficulty and cost of vocalizing her process and why that is so important for herself and others. She shares her concerns on parenting her daughter, managing mixed faith relationships with friends and family, and the importance of positivity. It has been a truly remarkable experience being able to share these conversations with you and to meet my many amazing guests. I thank each of them for their honesty, vulnerability and bold conversations, and I look forward to sharing many, many more in the upcoming episodes. Let's start with what is typically an easy question but can be a difficult one. How are you feeling? 

 

Aliyah [00:03:19] Oh man. You know, I thought it. A mix of emotions, the loss. I would say 24 hours. 

 

Brian [00:03:30] Okay. 

 

Aliyah [00:03:31] And there. So for the most part, the last few months, I've felt really good. Just really at peace with my life right now. I had really. Bad postpartum depression after I had my daughter and just feeling like I lost who I was and. I was in kind of a really hard place. For a while. And recently I started investing in myself more just investing time and. Energy and really asking myself what I need. I got a life coach and she's been amazing just helping me work on like I'm doing this 40 day mindset shift work where I just evaluate every single night. I write down and evaluate my emotions that day and. Limiting beliefs that popped into my head or different things. And it's been really, really good. Even like she's taught me how to do some inner child work. And it's been really honestly, I felt. More at peace than I have in a really, really long time. 

 

Brian [00:04:45] Good for you. 

 

Aliyah [00:04:46] And there's this and this. It sounds so trivial. There's this little what's what's the trend on social media right now? And I like to share a lot about the process of leaving the LDS Church on my social media. A lot. And I try to stay pretty. I stay pretty neutral. I try my best. And yesterday I was answering some questions from people, questions and comments. And I saw that some actually. Yeah. And someone said that I was spreading. It seemed like I was spreading hate and that I don't respect the people that are still in the church. And at the end they said, we love you, we love you either way. But we we would we ask for the same thing back. And that last part was really the kicker for me, like, we love you, but here's you need to be better at this kind of thing. And I if it hurt because I don't want to be seen as someone who spreads hate. Yeah. 

 

Brian [00:06:02] I don't think you come across that way at all. 

 

Aliyah [00:06:06] Thank you. Yeah. 

 

Brian [00:06:08] But I can see how. I think some people I mean, especially when you ask for anonymous feedback. 

 

Aliyah [00:06:14] Mm hmm. 

 

Brian [00:06:15] I think it's pretty easy to hide behind that. And I know you reached out to them and said, hey, you know, I'd love to talk about it if you want to let me know who you are and whatever. Yeah. But. 

 

Aliyah [00:06:27] You know. 

 

Brian [00:06:28] It's hard for people to take criticism, I think, and it's hard for people to see others leave the church that they know and love and then say, yeah, I didn't think about this or it made me feel this way or whatever. Even though you're talking about your story and your idea and your feelings, they take it personally. 

 

Aliyah [00:06:47] Yeah. 

 

Brian [00:06:48] And I think that's not just true with the LDS Church. I think that's true with a lot of different things. I mean, you can leave sports that you've been in for a long time or any community group and say, well, you know, if you're talking, well, I didn't really like the way they did this, they'll take that as criticism. So I wouldn't take that too much to heart. You know, yeah, I think you're full of positive positivity and light and energy, and I think that's what draws people to you. 

 

Aliyah [00:07:12] Thank you. 

 

Brian [00:07:13] So I think you're just talking about something that was a change in your life and was difficult and. 

 

Aliyah [00:07:18] Mm hmm. And I oftentimes, I have to remind myself, there was a point when I was all in. In the church, all in. And I if someone would share anything that was anti and I'm not an air quotes anything that was anti or just any sort of criticism about the church, I was like, well, I would think, wow, they're just they're in a dark place right now, you know? And I feel so guilty that I used to think that way, but I actually used to think that way. And so I have to put myself back in that place. Like, Okay, there was once a time when I thought this about people who left, and maybe they're in that place right now and then and then and and I had to do that yesterday. And by the end of the day, I was like, okay, they have a story that they've created about me. I have no control over that. That's their reality now. And the best thing I can do is just. Control my reaction to it and move on. Yeah. 

 

Brian [00:08:23] Yeah, that's right. So that's been the last 24 hours for you. You've been that's that's been weighing on you. 

 

Aliyah [00:08:29] Yeah, that was weighing on me. 

 

Brian [00:08:31] But you had another response to that said, hey, I've never felt like you've been negative towards the church or you know so. 

 

Aliyah [00:08:37] Mhm. Yeah. I got so I got those, I got those comments anonymously but also other people that like that showed up in my DMS and were just so kind and were like, hey, I've never felt that you spread hate. And they, and they even said, like, I'm still a member of the church and I feel like you're doing a lot of good. And, and I really appreciated that. But I'm so I and it's something I'm trying to work on, but I'm so I always focus on like the bad critique. I'm like, okay, yeah, all these people are saying good things, but I hyper focus on that bad critique like, okay, but maybe I'm doing something wrong, maybe I am being hateful, maybe I'm not. Maybe I should just stop sharing, you know? And I have to remind myself, I've gotten messages from people saying that I've helped them. And that's kind of what helps me keep sharing. Yeah, I do. Yeah. 

 

Brian [00:09:35] Because it is a struggle and it's very painful. And if you feel like you're alone, it makes it so much worse. But to have someone you know and respect and and admire and love say those things, it's like, okay, so it's not just me. Mhm. Right. It's, there's something else here and, and maybe it even gives them someone to talk to. 

 

Aliyah [00:09:59] Mhm. Did you have someone that you could talk to. 

 

Brian [00:10:05] Yeah. So my wife kind of exited just a little bit before me and all four of my kids. 

 

Aliyah [00:10:12] Yeah. 

 

Brian [00:10:13] So I was kind of the last one out, which really softened to my landing. Right. It's I know a lot of people situations where one spouse leaves and the other one's not going to leave. 

 

Aliyah [00:10:25] Yeah. 

 

Brian [00:10:26] And they're mad at each other. It's like, well, this isn't what we agreed to. And they both say that, and they're both right. We were both married in the temple. We were both going to do this. We're both going to do this. And the other one said, Yeah, but you said you'd be loyal to me. You'd stand by my side to love and to cherish. And and now this is happening. And I just can't imagine how difficult that situation must be for them. And some of them go on for years. That's so. Yeah. You and your husband both left about the same time or at some time together, hand in hand kind of thing. 

 

Aliyah [00:11:03] I had I have the same situation as you and your wife, so I left a little bit before my husband did okay. But it wasn't really shocking to him because we I always. I look back now and I realize I was deconstructing at a young age, and so I vocalize questions a lot. And so there were times when I was still active in the church, but I would say to my husband, What if I don't believe this? And. Two years from now or something. What if I left? How would that how would that go for you? How would you feel about that? And so it really wasn't. A shock for him because. Yeah, it was I had talked about it so much and we had did a lot of it. We just went through a lot of hypotheticals and. I married again. He's he's really he's awesome. Very understanding guy very non-judgmental. He's just just awesome. And so he not that anyone who's spouse is still like if there's a mixed race marriage or anything but he just really helped me feel like it's going to be okay. Like this doesn't put a wedge between us. And he reassured me of that a lot. And I reassured him a lot and. It worked out. And then later on he ended up leaving as well. But he would consider himself more Christian still. So we still have differing beliefs, but really it's not very understanding of each other's differences. 

 

Brian [00:12:47] So when you were asking those hypotheticals, were you kind of like looking back on it? Did you really like have one foot out the door or was this truly just a hypothetical situation? Or you're like, I'm headed a kind of different way here. I'm wondering how you would feel if something like this were to happen. 

 

Aliyah [00:13:04] Oh, that's actually, you know, I. That's a good question. I. 

 

Brian [00:13:10] And take your time. You and think about it. I mean, I can cut out dead silence and. 

 

Aliyah [00:13:15] Yeah. I think. In the very beginning, I don't think that I had one foot in and one foot out. Like when I was deconstructing at a young age, it was just I just had a lot of questions and there's a lot of cognitive dissonance. But I it wasn't until maybe like two in, in 2020, I was like. This is getting increasingly harder for me to follow along with. That's when I had one foot in, one foot out. But before that it was more just when I was talking to my husband. It was more just hypotheticals like, okay, say down the road. My beliefs are way different. What is that going to look like for our relationship? What is that going to mean for our kids? Our future? Our kids? Because it was. It was scary. But I also. I know myself and I. I knew that I would probably if I was questioning, then I was probably going to continue questioning down the road. So I. I knew I had to bring those conversations up with Kevin, whether or not I actually decided to leave or would decide to be a more nuanced member of the church. 

 

Brian [00:14:34] Thank you. You said when when questions came up and then 2020, that became a serious question. What are we taught as church members to do when we have questions that we can't answer? What? What, what? 

 

Aliyah [00:14:50] You should pray more. 

 

Brian [00:14:52] Pray more. 

 

Aliyah [00:14:52] You should fast. You should probably fast. On another day other than fast day, you should go to the temple. So yeah. 

 

Brian [00:15:02] So it's kind of up to you to get answers, right? It's kind of. And if you don't get answers, put it on a shelf and just in due time. Right. We get all questions to all things, but at some point you had enough on your shelf. And it sounds like in 2020, was there one or two specific issues that really kind of. Stood out to you or was there just the just the overall weight of that shelf, just kind of like. 

 

Aliyah [00:15:26] Oh, there was. Okay. So. There are a few big things where I was and it all hit me at once. Okay. A big one was. I was. Praying. And if my answers. We're not exactly in line with what the Prophet said. When I would read about that, it would say that my answer was from Satan or the adversary or not from God. And I was like, Well, I feel like I'm doing everything I'm supposed to be doing. I'm paying my tithing. I'm going like, Well, in 2020 we can go to the temple. But I was doing all of the things. And that was really confusing for me because I was like, Well. And then that got the ball rolling. I was like, Well, in the past, prophets have. Guided people in the wrong direction. At what point do we say, okay, I should? That's a really general in my view. The profits have guided people in the wrong direction in the past. So at what point do we say that the profit is being is is is guiding us in the wrong direction? At what point do we. Because everyone would always say, well, the profit is human. He's going to make mistakes. But also his decisions affect our internal salvation. So we kind of have to hold them to a higher standard. 

 

Brian [00:17:09] And he'll never lead you astray. Yeah, but he kind of. 

 

Aliyah [00:17:12] But he has it unless, like, everything that happened with the priesthood ban was. Was what God wanted. But then that was confusing for me because is God racist? Is like, is he a racist God? And why won't anyone ever say that the priesthood ban was racist? They just say, oh, we don't know what it was. It was it was just a confusing time. And they were a product of their time. But no one will ever say that they were just racist. Why won't anyone ever say that? And that was really. Oh, there you are. Sorry. Okay. Sorry about that. Okay. There we go. Okay. Can you hear me now? 

 

Brian [00:18:01] Yeah, I can still hear you. 

 

Aliyah [00:18:02] Okay. So that was really confusing for me, especially in 2020, because that was when everything with BLM was going on. And there was a lot of talk about how the church never fully apologized for what they did to. And like said, all in the past, like there's never they've never fully apologized for that. It's just been like now it's just not really talked about it and move on. And then they part and then that whole video with the church partnering with the ACP. It was like everyone was like, see, we're not racist. We're not racist anymore. We're not like, everything's fine. Everything's better now because we partnered with them, like, look at that. And it just felt it just felt gross to me. It didn't feel right. And it was. And do I think that the church is racist? Now. No, I don't think that like I don't I actually don't. I think that they're moving in a better direction. But I do think that there are some. There are some ignorant people in the way, but I do I do believe that they're trying to move in a better direction. A. So yeah, there is just there is a lot of cognitive dissonance in that sense, like, okay. I've seen we clearly see that profits have not been have been very human. Why are we allowing them to to guide every aspect of our lives? And when I would vocalize those question or to friends and I'm honestly trying to figure it out because I want to stay in the church. I wanted to work. A lot of times my response was, or the response that I would get from people was, You're thinking about this too. Like you're asking way too many questions. We humans can't know the answers to everything, and that's life. But that's not enough for me. That's not enough. Especially when. We're talking about a religion that I. We'll be raising my daughter and I want to be able to give her. A better answer than that? Yeah. 

 

Brian [00:20:31] Yeah. I can't pass on the answers you're giving me to my daughter in good conscience. That it's not an answer. 

 

Aliyah [00:20:39] It's not good enough for me. Yeah, she. 

 

Brian [00:20:41] She deserves to have an answer. And. And you claim to be a living prophet that has direct communication with God. I have a question that needs answered. She's not answering to me. And he's not answering to you. That's that's not that's not good. I know I should be patient, but all my doubts on the shelf and just follow the profit. But it's really hard to do. Really hard to keep doing that. 

 

Aliyah [00:21:08] Yes. Yeah. And. And then when. Elder Holland. I called out Matt Easton for coming out in his valedictorian speech. Yeah. Yeah. And it was a very. It was. It was yes. It wasn't at General Conference. It wasn't meant for all of the members of the church to hear. It was just for the faculty at BYU, but it was broadcasted so everyone had access to it and it was really alarming to me that he would use his time. To call out. Very. You knew exactly who he was talking about. Sold out Madison and said that he commandeered. The graduation. And I was like, that is I'm not okay with that. I'm not following leaders that feel okay with that. 

 

Brian [00:22:04] And not okay with using a well you weren't supposed to hear that as an excuse. 

 

Aliyah [00:22:09] Mhm. Yeah. That wasn't for it. That wasn't. 

 

Brian [00:22:12] For. Yeah. 

 

Aliyah [00:22:12] You know that wo uh huh. But no apology, there was nothing, there was just crickets from them after and it caused an uproar among so many, so many people because rightfully so it was wrong. And then there's just crickets from the church. And then that's just with everything I've noticed is if they if they offend or if they if they say something like so hurtful like that. There's usually just crickets and then. No. And then everyone just moves on like life time and. 

 

Brian [00:22:51] Well, church leadership have even said the church does not apologize. And I'm like, Well, that doesn't sound very Christ. Like. 

 

Aliyah [00:23:00] Aren't we supposed to apologize, right? 

 

Brian [00:23:02] We have to, but not you. 

 

Aliyah [00:23:03] Because you know. Yeah. 

 

Brian [00:23:07] Okay. 

 

Aliyah [00:23:09] It was it was a lot of. So at that point with elder Hollins his. I don't even know what it was. It was a. 

 

Brian [00:23:21] BYU fact. 

 

Aliyah [00:23:22] It wasn't a. 

 

Brian [00:23:22] Toss or something like that. Yeah. 

 

Aliyah [00:23:24] Or this address. At that point, it was pretty it was pretty clear cut for me because I was still I was still praying at that time. I was still trying to get answers. And then that happened. I was like, well, if God is real and God is like. And that was the most. Clear answer for me. Okay. I watched it. I watched. I watched Elder Hall and thought I felt gross inside watching it. Yeah, I felt sick. I felt sad for Matt that he had to go through that. And I it was just very apparent for me. This religion's not for me. This organization, it doesn't align. 

 

Brian [00:24:07] So did you ever consider I mean, you said that was an answer for you, but did you ever consider that was actually the answer to your prayer? 

 

Aliyah [00:24:15] Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And now I don't even know how I feel about God or anything. Okay. 

 

Brian [00:24:23] So now you're like, I don't know if I got an answer at all. Yeah, but I got the information I needed. 

 

Aliyah [00:24:29] Yes. So at that. But at that time, I was like, for sure that was God. At that time, I was like, That was God. That is my answer to my prayers. 

 

Brian [00:24:38] Really? 

 

Aliyah [00:24:38] You thought I've been praying. Yeah, because I think that was it was so clear because I had been really because my daughter was getting older. She was in the nursery and. I. I had to make a conscious effort to bring her to church every Sunday. And. My husband was working a lot, so it was really on me and I so it was like, okay, if I'm going to make this conscious effort to bring her to church, like, why am I doing it? And so I went through this massive just deconstruction, like I call it my rabbit hole phase where I just consumed all the information I possibly could on the church website, the gospel topics, essays. And then as soon as I felt like I had exhausted that, then I went to everything outside of that that I could find or get my hands on and read about and learn about just history of the church, all of it. It was very much a radical phase. 

 

Brian [00:25:38] But that's your nature to dig into those topics and to research, right? You get a hold of a little thread and you follow that. You you do that. So that's that that's kind of your nature. But didn't you already feel like you had the answer right at the beginning? And if so, why did you continue to dig? I'm just kind of curious, is what still drove that just because it's just more information or is your person became interesting at this point? 

 

Aliyah [00:26:04] I think for me because I it was such it leaving is such a huge decision and I was like, I just want to be I want I got this answer from God. But I also well, from, like in my mind at that time was from God. Right. But also the other part of me was like, okay, if that wasn't God, if I was just wanting this to be. An answer from God. If I just wanted this thing, the elder Holland said to just answer all my questions. I just want to make sure I'm actually right. And I and so it's just part of me, like, I want to find evidence to back up. Why? I left. And so that's why I went. And that's when I said, Go in the garden. 

 

Brian [00:26:53] You get down that rabbit hole in your pathways down the rabbit hole. I'm assuming you found several things that you're like, Oh, yeah, here's some evidence. Here's some evidence, and you're still going down that rabbit hole. I mean, at this point, you have a you have a pretty conclusive case with all the data you need to say, okay, that's out, but you're still digging. 

 

Aliyah [00:27:11] Well. 

 

Brian [00:27:12] What do you think drives that? 

 

Aliyah [00:27:17] Because. It was all of because all the years. I really I believed all of it. I wanted to teach it to my friends. I wanted to be the best missionary. I wanted to have the eternal family, all those things. And so as I'm reading, I'm finding all this evidence. But there's still that voice. What I've been taught for years. Like this is the one true church. There's nothing else. If you leave, you're in darkness. And I was so scared. I was. I and I thought that if I left, my life would just. Turned upside down. I'd be in a cloud of darkness and sadness and. An apostate. And I was just. It was. For some reason, finding motion was like constantly suppressing. Those thoughts that I would have. So it was like I couldn't stop. I was like, I just. I really I really don't want to make the wrong decision, but I'm really being led out of this organization, and I'm really scared about it. 

 

Brian [00:28:37] So to follow up questions for that one is why did you think what? And I kind of know the answer. So I hope this is a to a leading question. Why did you think when you left the church your life was going to be miserable and fall apart and you were going to fall into a cloud of darkness? What what led you to believe that? And second of all, I want to talk a little bit more about the process of convincing yourself and just allowing the time to get past where you can find yourself a little bit. Because what you have been following up until now is has been such a huge part of everything you've done. So that's gone. What what what replaces that? Right. I think a lot of us go through that process like, okay, I'm convinced I'm not going back. But that doesn't necessarily replace it with rainbows and sunshine. 

 

Aliyah [00:29:29] Yeah. 

 

Brian [00:29:30] We're like, okay, so what does that mean? 

 

Aliyah [00:29:34] Yeah, what's next? 

 

Brian [00:29:35] We're so used to having that force in our life and guide us and give us the answer and tell us how to be happy. And now what. 

 

Aliyah [00:29:45] Mm. Yeah. And that's what's scary. That's what, that's the scary part. 

 

Brian [00:29:51] And that's, that's the deconstruction part. That's really where you look at every piece of and say, is there any of it that was true or where do I find the truth or how do I know? Do I keep anything? Was that true? Deconstruction. Right. And that doesn't stop with just the church. It goes it spills over to every aspect of your life at that point. 

 

Aliyah [00:30:12] Literally everything. Yeah, I. I remember just being taught. Specifically in young women. Which is like the teen. The teen. Sunday school lessons. It was called The Young Women. 

 

Brian [00:30:35] Because you were separate from the young men, which was the other. 

 

Aliyah [00:30:37] Yeah. From them. And so I just remember they would give examples. We would have these lessons about staying on the straight and narrow path. And they will give lessons of examples of people who left. Who just experienced life in the age of animals. And now. I'm trying to remember like specific stories that they would give, but it was good, good sample. For what not to do. And it was just people who left were really painted in this negative light. For some reason, people in the church would claim to have, like, these magical powers where they could see. Someone's countenance. Fade. Like I just I one of my friends left and I could just see that she she doesn't have the same weight that she used to. Like, that was a big thing that people would say, you know, they don't have the same color, that same light that you have from the joy of the church. And I was just it was just always painted in this really scary dark picture for me. And it sucks because that's what shaped my view of the world. That's how I viewed people who weren't in the church at all. Yeah. And then so people who weren't in the church at all, it was more like, hey, I can have. Okay, they never heard the gospel. And now it's my chance. I get to share this great news with them. But people who left, those were the people that were like they turned their back on God out of laziness, lazy, because they just wanted to sit on. 

 

Brian [00:32:24] Your study was lazy and you left because you really wanted to send you wanted your whole life to get out there and sentence incense and you just couldn't hold that back anymore. That's why you left, right? 

 

Aliyah [00:32:34] Yeah. And I oh, it's, it's so I'm still rewiring my brain from that thinking, like member like the whole division of members and nonmembers, like, because that's what people would say, oh my friend, she's a non member. Like that's what that's what people say. I cringe when I think about it. Because when you're in it, when you're in that organization and you're all in, it's normal. But when you're out and you hear, this isn't normal. 

 

Brian [00:33:06] Yeah, it's creepy. It's weird. 

 

Aliyah [00:33:08] It's really. 

 

Brian [00:33:10] Well, I think the church does a good job of indoctrinating people like that. Let me tell you all of the bad things it's going to happen if somebody leaves. Let's point out all of these examples. Do you think you were used in as an example when you left? You think there are people in your ward that's like, Oh yeah, what happened to Hershey's? 

 

Aliyah [00:33:28] But honestly. 

 

Brian [00:33:30] Can they say you're not glowing, you're not still full of positivity and energy? They can't. They know you. They can't say, Well, she just got dark and depressed and wanted to sin. And now she's doing all these drugs and all of these terrible things that she's always wanted to do. They can't see that. So what do they have to say? Why can't you just leave and be quiet? 

 

Aliyah [00:33:50] Yes. 

 

Brian [00:33:52] People can leave the church. They just can't leave it alone. Come up with all these reasons to explain why you left. Because, again, it's one of those cognitive dissonance things. People that know you when you leave and if they still stay in contact, which is very, very few, I'm assuming, because it was in my case, they are they don't want to know. They they're going to make up a story that makes sense in their head. They were too progressive. They're too educated or they're not. They're lazy learners. If you know either lazy learners or too educated, it's got to be one of them. 

 

Aliyah [00:34:26] Yes, yes. Oh, man. I think I'm really confusing for people that are still in it. I think there are people that just. Don't. They just choose not to engage with me at all about about leaving, when really the only thing that's keeping us together was because we both were in the church. Right. But we're not going to we're just not going to talk about that. And and it's fine. I it's not what I want. People that are in the church. I understand why some people stay. I understand why people stay. I get it. Community. I miss the community. I miss those people. And having that other like that built in friendship that you have every single Sunday. It's always there. I miss that. So I understand. I understand. So it's not that I want everyone to. To read to read like the C. S letter or to write to do what I did. I don't think that everyone has the same path as me or should have the same path as me. But I do think that people in the church need to realize that there is happiness outside of this. And it was for me. Yeah, you have to accept that. And. And just be willing. Yeah. You just have to be willing to accept that. And it's probably going to confuse you because it's taught at the pulpit that there's not happiness and it's just it's so much cognitive dissonance, like you said. And so I think that I just confuse a lot of people because they're like, Well, she's happy she left. She was like a Relief Society Bush and her and her husband were like really faithful, the church. I was like, asked to speak at Fireside. Are not fireside. I didn't speak at Fireside, but Stake Conference is a few times and so I'm sure it's just so confusing now. For for people to see that. Whoa. Like, I. I think I was always viewed as just like this. Super strong member of the church. That was. Always going to defend it and all these things. So now that I'm out and I'm happy, it's just it's a lot for people to comprehend. And I fully try to comprehend it. 

 

Brian [00:37:06] Because you're not an intelligent, delightful person with a warm personality. That was a member of the church. You wear those things because you were a member. You're still that same delightful, warm, caring person. You're just not a member of the church now that they can't see that disconnect. It's like, no, when you leave, you have to be miserable and on drugs and unhappy in your life as an alcoholic. An alcoholic. And yeah, but no, you're the same wonderful person you've always been. You just don't go to that church anymore and you just don't believe those teachings anymore. But it's the only thing that's changed. 

 

Aliyah [00:37:45] The. 

 

Brian [00:37:45] Happiness that you had. You have then. You have now. You have struggles then. You have struggles now. You dealt with them a certain way. Then you're dealing with them a slightly different way now. People don't see that. They, like you said, they attribute all happiness to the church and all miserable misery outside of the church. And it's so conditioned that when somebody leaves it, well, it has to be that. And so now when they're still seeing you succeed and be happy and living your best life, they're like, Oh, well, I don't know what you have to talk about the church all the time. 

 

Aliyah [00:38:20] Yeah, I. 

 

Brian [00:38:20] Don't feel like I do. I will go out of my way to not talk about it. And then what are we doing for the first 38 minutes? We're talking about church. 

 

Aliyah [00:38:26] So it just happens. It just doesn't happen. 

 

Brian [00:38:32] It's an important part of your life right now, right? If I if I start conversations a lot like what's on your mind lately, this is going to be on your mind for a while. At some point, I'm assuming it may not be. Yeah, but right now it's still I'm still working through things. And it sounds like your destruction went far beyond the LDS Church, but also Christianity and God, the nature of God and all of those other things. It's like, okay. I've got to figure out what makes sense for me, but it's. 

 

Aliyah [00:39:01] So. 

 

Brian [00:39:01] What if you're not being led now by a prophet and the the the the force books of Scripture from the LDS Church. What what does guide your life now? What or who do you look to for guidance? 

 

Aliyah [00:39:18] I still don't. I'm still figuring that out. I. I tried going to it. I've tried going to a couple nondenominational. Christian churches. And I think that it's a really great it's really nice. Whenever I've gone, I'm like, Well, what's it like? If I did go back to a church, it would probably be a nondenominational church. But when I'm there, I don't feel. I'm like, I'm like, wow, look at all these people who seem really happy to be be here and feel really connected to this and feel like they're they're receiving answers to their prayers and they just feel this call to be there versus I'm just there and I'm just more of an observer. I'm more. Just taking it all in. I don't feel. I call it this. How to explain that? Sorry. Where are you going? To say. 

 

Brian [00:40:22] Something? No, I was gonna say. How do you explain that? Because that's kind of a. 

 

Aliyah [00:40:28] I feel very much right now. I whenever I make a decision, I sit and I ask myself and I say it out loud. If I have to make a difficult decision, I say I say it out loud to myself and I see what my body is telling me. If I feel tense or if I feel easy or my my brain is racing, then I know to take a step back and evaluate, okay, is this the right is this the right thing for me? So. Maybe before I would have called that the spirit. And now I'm just. It's more like. I follow me. I follow what I. Feel in my body is right and wrong. I don't really like calling it an outside source anymore. It's what it is. Yeah. And now when I do go to these non-denominational churches and they say, I feel God here, I feel this way for me, I'm like, I just. I don't know if I would call it that. It's it's so it's so confusing for me right now. So for me right now, I follow. What I specifically what my body. And that sounds so vague. 

 

Brian [00:41:55] So I'm wondering if when you look back on some of the previous moments when you were in the church and you felt the spirit in quotes, do you think that might have been your body actually answering? Do you think that might have been part of you that was answering and you just attributed it to what you've been told to attribute it to? 

 

Aliyah [00:42:12] Yes. Yes, that. It was the same. Yes. And I still I want to know also what you think, how you have been able to figure. How you have been able to discern those feelings out. Because for me now I think back on a lot of my mission experience is. I think it was literally just me. It was either me or it was a learned psychological response to certain stimuli. Like the first, when we were to recite the first vision, it was like. I was always told like, wow, this is so amazing. Wow. Can you believe this happened to a 14 year old boy? Wow. This is where it all started, you know? And I really feel like that was just a learned response for me. Okay. So that by the time I get on my mission and I'm like reciting, I'm like, wow, can you believe that? Like, do you feel that spirit right now? And I'm telling them, do you feel that? And there were a lot of times people were like, I feel the same. I feel normal, you know? But for me, I'm like, Can you feel the spirit? I think it was just learned. I think I was just. Trained. Like, what is that? Pavlov starts. Yeah, yeah. Pavlov's dog. You know. 

 

Brian [00:43:30] Someone rings a bell and you feel the spirit, right? 

 

Aliyah [00:43:33] Yes. 

 

Brian [00:43:34] But do you not feel that same energy and that same love and peacefulness when you're watching Forrest Gump or a Disney movie or. Yeah, that. Is that the spirit or is that just a human connection? 

 

Aliyah [00:43:49] Just human. Yeah. 

 

Brian [00:43:50] And it's just yourself recognizing that. And maybe it just it connects us deeper than we understand. And when we're in a room, we have that shared connection. We can all feel it. But a good piece of music will do that. Someone to being vulnerable and having a conversation and sharing part of their soul that's meaningful to them. That can can share that. And the church says, well, that's because it's touching on truth. Yes. But maybe it's a different truth that we're touching on that's universal. Beyond the LDS Church, beyond all of. 

 

Aliyah [00:44:23] Religion. 

 

Brian [00:44:24] And beyond even humanity, even maybe there's something there. 

 

Aliyah [00:44:29] Okay. 

 

Brian [00:44:29] So, yeah, you know, when I watch these cute little Pixar movies and these little cartoon pixels are doing these. You feel it. I mean, Pixar knows how to push your buttons, and Disney knows how to evoke those emotions with the right music and the right everything else. And we just tap into that. It's a human condition, right? 

 

Aliyah [00:44:50] Yeah. 

 

Brian [00:44:51] And again, I don't think that it's the the LDS. They don't they don't own happiness, they don't own love, they don't own true emotion. They figured out a way to tap into it a lot, which is a beautiful thing in some cases. And there are parts of that that I have with the church, but I'm thinking it doesn't necessarily belong there exclusively. I can take some of that with me. 

 

Aliyah [00:45:13] Oh, I like that. 

 

Brian [00:45:15] But that's part of deconstruction, is what part takes with me. I used to love the primary songs. They are they have become such a trigger for me. Just the words and it's just trigger. And it's like, wow, I had such a different view of this. Everything crazy five years ago. I know whatever it was, but now it's like I can't even hear it anymore. I used to love this song. 

 

Aliyah [00:45:41] Yeah. My daughter was singing Book of Mormon Stories. The other day, and I was like, Oh, I just thought I felt really uneasy about it because my family still. Active in so many. My my brother's on a service mission, so sometimes play like primary songs. And so that's how because I haven't really taught it. It's more like she hears it from him and yeah, so she'll sing it sometimes and like, how do, how do we get that to start with with our it's like this fine line because I don't want her to have this negative view of what my family believes. I want her to respect what they believe. Yeah. But also I she eventually she's going to have to learn that. You know, grandma and grandpa and. And everyone else. Like they go to another church and they believe something different than we believe. And I'm still trying to figure out the words to explain that to her. Well, I have to in a very broad sense, like, hey, now they go grandma and grandpa go to this church. But we don't really go to that one anymore, and that's okay. Sometimes people are going to believe different things. And you believe. And she just goes, Oh, okay. 

 

Brian [00:47:12] I heard a previous story about her wanting to say a prayer. At that a family gathering and you're you're you you were having a little bit of a conflict as the mother. Saying, What kind of mother am I that haven't taught my child to pray? But we don't pray because we don't believe in that. I mean, there's a conflict now, right, of the way you were raised in the way you want to raise your children. And I'm great. I think it's awesome that you've. You brought up Pavlov earlier because between the stimulus and the response, mankind has has a choice. There's a gap there where we can make a decision. We can choose to not automatically respond to the bell. Right. But we can be conditioned so that every time, every morning, every Sunday morning at 9:00, we're we're at church. Have we made that conscientious decision to be there, or is it just because it's 9:00 and it's Sunday? Yeah. And you're kind of teaching your daughter a little bit, but now it's like people ring a bell and she's like, What's that for? And you're thinking, Well, that's when we face east and pray, you know? I mean, you do that. But I mean, these typical religious conditionings that people grow up in, you've taken that away. And she doesn't even know what that is. And how like, how do you know? Or then she does know what Book of Mormon Stories is, and you're like, no, don't, don't, don't do that. We know. 

 

Aliyah [00:48:35] And we get squeezed out of songs. 

 

Brian [00:48:36] We sing Wheels on the Bus or something else. Mm hmm. But but as a mother, how do you balance that now? I mean, what kind of goes through your head? What kind of conflict is that brought on? 

 

Aliyah [00:48:48] Oh, it's brought so much. It's an internal struggle because it's interesting, because she knows if we go to grandma and grandpa, how's my my parents that still go to church, she knows that we are going to pray before we eat. She's already made that decision, but she knows here at our house we just eat when we're all like when the family is together and we're all seated, we'll just eat and we'll just talk and like. But she knows when we go to grandma and grandmother's house, she'll say, okay, who's going to say the prayers? So it's interesting that she's she's three, but she's already she's noticing those patterns like, okay, I remember in this house we pray, but at my house we don't have to do that. And so when I first started vocalizing that, I was leaving one of my mission companions. Vocalized. Well, don't you feel she's like you're taking your daughter out of church because you don't want her to be taught those things, but you're also inadvertently teaching her. Not to have a relationship with God and not to. To have like organized religion, all those things, which is true. Like basically. Sure. What my beliefs are is what she's being taught is. How it is. So now I want her to make. I want her to be able to make a decision as she decides that she believes that there is a God connecting us all together. Cool. Like I want if that's what's bringing her peace, I want her to have that. But how do I teach that to her? When I don't even know God or like what God even looks like. What is the proper way to pray? I don't even know. Right. And when she does in her preschool, it's also Bible based. We love them. Preschool. We love that preschool. It's like an. The owners are nondenominational, so they sometimes will pray. And it's more of a it's not like the. The same structure as the LDS type of prayer. It's just a lot of I don't really know what I'd do. I don't really know what I'm going to do or how to move forward. 

 

Brian [00:51:16] I think you kind of answered it already, though. I don't know if you've connected that, but you said when she decides if she wants to believe in God. I think that's the lesson you're giving her. Is that? A There are all these different religions and there's diversity and it's wonderful, but it's whatever you decide you want to do. And maybe it's what you decide you want to do at this moment, and that might be different five years from now. But but she has that choice. She's not locked into that at eight years old. 

 

Aliyah [00:51:50] Because. 

 

Brian [00:51:52] Because she's told she has to. And I think that's the beautiful choice you're giving her. But I don't think you should feel like, well, I'm not giving her a choice. I'm not teaching her anything. You're teaching her that important lesson of you are that is, you get to decide. You listen to yourself and what you what you listen to, what you're. And we're going to try to give you all examples, and we're going to introduce all these different, wonderful, different religions and different beliefs. But when it comes down to it, you're the one that gets to decide that. And it might decide for for a time. You may decide it forever. It's totally up to you. I don't think that it's good that it's thrust upon you as one thing at an early age, and you're expected to carry that all the way through to the grave. So you're in a sense, you're giving her a choice that you don't necessarily make, may not have had, or you had to really fight for. And I think that's a beautiful thing. So I don't like to hear you discount yourself saying, I don't know what I'm doing. I think you're doing and I think it's a beautiful thing. 

 

Aliyah [00:52:58] Thank you. 

 

Brian [00:52:59] And I think you've kind of figured it out. And, yes, you're still struggling through it. When she's a mom, she'll still be struggling through it. But right now you can give her these tools. It's like, yeah, grandma, grandpa, pray. And that's what they do at their house. And we might even go to church with them on occasion, you know, they might invite us and you decide you want to go. Yeah, right now we're deciding we're not going. You may decide you want to pray. Do you have anything else you want to say about the church topics before we move on or we can come back to it later? This kind of leads into another thing that I want to talk about. 

 

Aliyah [00:53:30] No, I think we should move on to the next thing. Yeah. 

 

Brian [00:53:35] So in your search for your with your depression and you mentioned your anxiety, you want to be and your negativity thoughts and your inner critic, you want to be a positive force. You want to exude positivity. And I love the post you put recently where you and your daughter both had a meltdown on the same day, and it was a silent breakfast. And you thought, Nope, that's not how this day is going to go. We are going to dance. I think that's a beautiful message to send for her. I think it does wonderful things for you. It's great thing to share. And, hey, what do you know? That wasn't even about the church. So how about that? 

 

Aliyah [00:54:16] Oh, wow. Did. 

 

Brian [00:54:20] But you've also discovered this thing that I had never heard of until I found your channel about tapping. 

 

Aliyah [00:54:26] Yeah. 

 

Brian [00:54:27] You want to tell us a little bit about how that came to be and what that means to you and. 

 

Aliyah [00:54:33] Definitely. So I. After I had my daughter. There was also a lot of deconstructing just what motherhood was supposed to look like and. I always thought I was supposed to look a certain way, so I felt really. Trapped in a lot of ways because I. I thought that it was I was supposed to be a stay at home mom and I'll like drop all of my passions pretty much for my child. And I just. It was so. It was a really dark time for him. And it was just. 

 

Brian [00:55:14] Well, I've heard some people refer to it as motherhood is murder hood. That's the time we're conditioned. You have to give up everything about yourself and just throw everything at your children so you can reach them. Represent them like crazy later, right? I mean, I don't know how that works out in the end, but that's the direction that I see it going. 

 

Aliyah [00:55:31] Uh huh. Yeah. And I felt just so. Sad I am won because I got married. I got married really early as 21. That's so young. And you served a mission and a mission. I thought I had life, like, all figured out. Like, I was just a super mature adult, and I knew exactly how my life was going to look. And surprise, surprise. Yeah. And luckily, I married. I found Kevin and. I really like it. He's awesome and we were both here now and doing great. We had Ayla and it was just this crazy wake up call and. I just felt really alone. A lot of my friends didn't have kids. A lot of my friends who weren't married yet either. Didn't have kids. And I. I didn't realize just how. Lonely I would feel after. Having a child. I thought I was going to just immediately feel so happy and just, like, so grateful I was able to have this beautiful daughter and. I was in a really just. Sad, muted place for a while. And like myself and I know now looking back that it was post-partum depression. When I was in it, I was just like. I just didn't really want to acknowledge that fact. But now I look back at my 1,000,000%. That was postpartum depression, and it just took me a long time to get out of that. We moved into this. We bought this place and. I made this conscious decision like I want to I want to invest in myself. I can't continue. To feel this. I don't want to be a sad mom. I want to be present. And I want her. To to remember these times. I know she's so young, but I just don't want to be. Assad. Assad long for her. And so I one of my friends, he his mom gifted him like a program with a life coach for Christmas. I was like, Well, that's really true. And he was saying how it's just been this transformative experience. He actually he actually left the church earlier than I did. And he was just saying how he was able to work through a lot of. The cognitive dissonance and he just felt more in tune with himself. Since working with her, I was like, Wow, I need that. And so I reached out to her and we started working together and she just she it was like I had someone accountable. So when I was accountable to, she would give me different things to do each week. Like, Okay, this week you're going to. I. You're going to do mindfulness every day for even if it's just like 2 minutes to 3 minutes or this week you're going to try on a new outfit because I had a lot of use also as I was trying to figure out how to dress after leaving the church. So she was giving me like. Things to do each week that were helping me kind of work through. A lot of the struggle. She also challenged me to to spend time by myself. Even if it was even if Kevin was really busy, she's like, You need to. Schedule out time where you just go out and do whatever the heck you want to do. And just all these little things. And she taught me. So she taught me mindfulness. She taught me breath work. And she taught tapping. And tapping was just. It was. So basically what's happening you're tapping. The idea is it's based on Chinese acupressure points. So the idea is if you are having a negative thought, like a recurring negative thought or if you're feeling stressed or anxious, the idea is that you have a blockage in one of your meridians. And when you're tapping. You're bringing balance back to your body. It's a good way to ground and it's a good way to practice mindfulness and just being in the present moment. All these things combined into one. And if anything, it forces you. To get out of like this cyclical negative headspace because. For me, I would wake up. And if Ella had a meltdown that morning, I'm like, I'm not a good enough mom. And that would just, like, start off the day. The day would start like, I'm not a good enough mom this day is going to set. I'm not a good like I deserve someone better than me. Like, this is the stuff that was going on in my brain. And so what Heather, my life coach taught me is when you're in that moment, stop and take a second tap. And first you tap through the negative emotion and you say, I'm feeling. You say, even though I'm I feel like I'm not a good enough mom, I deeply and completely love and accept myself. So you're accepting that you have this negative belief and you're saying out loud to yourself, I still love and accept myself either way. And then you move on from that and you give yourself a positive thing like. I am from. Like I could say, I know I'm exactly where I'm supposed to be right now and I deeply and completely love and accept myself. It's basically saying out loud, okay, I have this negative emotion, this this bad thought, whatever it is, but I still love myself. And that in itself is allowing your body to heal. And then. And then you're turning it around from that negative thought and saying. No. This law is not rooted in truth. It's just a thought. Here's the positive. And eventually, like, I started getting in the habit of just. Catching myself in the negative thought. And then. Immediately taking action to say, okay, that is just a thought. That's not true. And once I. Was able to distinguish it. It got to the point where if I like now, if I have that thought like I'm not a good enough mom for Allah, it's almost it's almost humorous because I'm like, oh, I remember when I used to think that was true. Yeah. Yeah. It's totally changed. Just the way I see myself and I'm not perfect. I still have negative thoughts that that will come in. But I know what to do now. And I. And I. I am just so grateful that she taught me, taught me it, because I've been able to teach it to Ella. And Ella has been able to. Like at preschool. If she said or she misses me or she's feeling anxious, she'll tap. Which is pretty crazy. I wasn't I was three when I was three. I was not given those tools. And my parents, I'm so grateful for my parents. It's not like I think they didn't do it. I think they did a great job. But I'm saying I think it's I think it's awesome that I have this information and I can pass it along to her. So she just has another tool in her tool belt to help her feel more confident in herself and for emotional regulation. Right? 

 

Brian [01:03:41] Yeah, that's fascinating, especially since at that age they're such sponges. They just pick it up. She will never know a life where she doesn't have. Mhm. Right. And yes she might have Book of Mormon Stories as a tool as well but she's got that too right. 

 

Aliyah [01:03:58] Yeah. 

 

Brian [01:03:59] And she's got her grandparents prairie grandparents house and you know mentions of, of, of a Bible at a preschool and she's got all these different things and you're empowering her to say, yeah, you get to choose what, what? What do you want? What? This is all you. Yeah. So it's awesome that you're giving all those. There's a great book called Permission to Field by Dr. Mark Brackett, and he talks how adults can typically identify in themselves and others for emotions. He says there's there's far more emotions than that, but we don't give ourselves permission to feel and be curious and talk about our feelings and understand what they are. And for her to catch her inner critic at an early age and say, hey, I understand what I'm feeling, and that's okay, and this is why. And so this is these are some things I can do about it and not feel that it's it's wrong to be angry. It's wrong to throw things. This not wrong. Angry anger. Anger can be a good thing. Anyway, it's a fascinating book, but I didn't have any of that growing up. We never talked about things that were important in my house. We didn't talk about many of those things. We never talked about emotions. 

 

Aliyah [01:05:14] Yeah. 

 

Brian [01:05:14] So the fact that that is a thing that's available now to talk to kids and a lot of doctor brackets work is on elementary schools and teaching us about all these emotions and what they're feeling and what they mean and the differences between anger and anxiety and overworked, overwhelmed, overwhelmed. And they're all very close together. But everybody says, oh, I'm just angry you're not there. There are lots of emotions in that little cluster and you're a different one today. And to just understand that. 

 

Aliyah [01:05:49] Permission, to feel that mission. 

 

Brian [01:05:50] To feel. 

 

Aliyah [01:05:51] Yeah, that's awesome. 

 

Brian [01:05:52] That's a. 

 

Aliyah [01:05:53] Great lesson. 

 

Brian [01:05:55] Yeah. But it's awesome that we're arming these three year olds out there now to just go out there and just. And I even like I coached girls lacrosse and I coached fifth and sixth grade girls. And we talk about emotions and stuff and like, why do we have to talk about this? 

 

Aliyah [01:06:09] And that's fun. 

 

Brian [01:06:11] I'm like, my ideal is for one of my girls that I've been coaching for a while to come to practice one day and say, Coach, my, my dog died yesterday and I'm just kind of sad about it. So if I'm not playing my best today, that's why I'm here. And I'm trying. I just wanted you to know. Wow. How mature would that be? Just to be able to share that information ahead of time and know, hey, it's not because I don't care or whatever and I just want you to see that I made it. It's a big thing for me and I'm probably not going to be on my best today and this is why. 

 

Aliyah [01:06:42] So yeah. 

 

Brian [01:06:44] I think that is just a huge, huge tool that I never had growing up. I wish I'd even thought about it. I didn't have that ten years ago, five years ago. So I'm very encouraged by this younger generation that is getting these new tools and these tapping techniques and understanding your emotions and being able to talk about it and. Hopefully it'll take care of some of the anxiety that we've all had for so long and some of the depression that we've all been working through and working through. 

 

Aliyah [01:07:14] How did you. Because you said that you weren't. You never talked about emotions growing up. If so, what has caused you to do more of that now? 

 

Brian [01:07:28] The emotions. I think a lot of it is. I found that book. Yeah. And I didn't know the difference between anxiety and and anger. Or and the fact that so I have several friends that I've shared that book with and we have conversations and we start every conversation with, How are you feeling? It's the most often asked question, but the answer is always find good whatever and well, find is not an emotion. Good is not an emotion. How are you feeling? When I ask that to someone that I've talked with about this, I expect them to respond with an emotion and give me an explanation as to why. But more often than not, they start with Give me just a second. Let me think about it. 

 

Aliyah [01:08:20] Yeah. 

 

Brian [01:08:21] How are you feeling? And we never just feel one emotion. We feel three or four emotions all at once. We can be angry and excited and and hopeful and sad at the same time. And it's just. I love that movie. 

 

Aliyah [01:08:34] Inside Out. 

 

Brian [01:08:35] Inside Out. 

 

Aliyah [01:08:36] I love that it is called. Yeah, it's like. 

 

Brian [01:08:38] Yeah, good call, but I love that. And but they go much richer than that. And it also opens up a great conversation because you're immediately talking about something that's personally important. You're not talking about the sports score or whatever else it's oh yeah. Tell me more about that. What's going on with that? You know, it's immediately personal and personal and engaging, but I've never thought about that before. And so I had to take my time regular regularly and get into the habit of saying, How are you feeling? And I get it. Most people use it as a greeting. They're not. I mean, the last person somebody asked you on the street, how are you feeling? The last person you want to say, well, I'm feeling a little gassy. I don't know what I had for. 

 

Aliyah [01:09:21] Lunch, but I need your help. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Too much information. I mean. I mean. 

 

Brian [01:09:27] Hey. And then you just say a and just. We just. 

 

Aliyah [01:09:30] Go. That's it. 

 

Brian [01:09:31] Right. Then don't ask me how I'm feeling if you don't want to know how I'm feeling. Right. 

 

Aliyah [01:09:36] Hmm. 

 

Brian [01:09:38] So that's part of it. I think part of it came with deconstruction. There are parts of my personality that I've always, you know, there's parts of us ourselves that we don't like or we wish we could improve on. And I've just started to do a deep dove with that and come across a lot of parts of myself that I didn't like. I don't like the fact that I can't have a conversation with my parents about emotions. It's never going to happen, especially with my dad. It's just not going to happen. And I tried several times and it's just he doesn't have that skill set. 

 

Aliyah [01:10:12] Yeah. 

 

Brian [01:10:13] That's you know, that's not what a conversation is in our in our family. It's always been competitive storytelling. And with a few, it's starting to change. I've got a son in law who is pretty deep and insightful and he hates surface level conversations. He wants to start a conversation with a stranger. So what do you think happens to us when we die? 

 

Aliyah [01:10:37] He does that? Yeah. 

 

Brian [01:10:39] There's no. How are you doing? Yeah, I don't care. What was movie? You know. What? What do you like? What's your favorite color? Now he wants to go right to the depths of it and say, let's talk about stuff that's important. And if it is a surface level conversation in a room, he just disappears. He's like, I. 

 

Aliyah [01:10:54] It's not for him. 

 

Brian [01:10:54] That's not. Yeah, that's a complete waste of time. Right. 

 

Aliyah [01:10:59] So. Wow. 

 

Brian [01:11:01] So we change as we. As we, as, I guess, throughout our lives. And that's kind of been a big change for me. 

 

Aliyah [01:11:07] So I feel like I'm learning. I'm learning. How to talk more about emotions. And just as I'm learning, I'm teaching that to my daughter and. So it's like we're growing together. We're both figuring it out together. 

 

Brian [01:11:29] And for so long, I mean. I think a lot of. A lot of people my age, my age had parents that had a certain knowledge of what it meant to be a parent. And it's wrong and they're trying to feel that, but they got that from their parents and so forth and so on. Right. That's what it means to be a parent. I think we're getting to a point where parents nowadays are like, I don't know, let's let's figure this out together. And they work with their kids. It's like, I don't have all of the answers. I don't have all that. But I know I should be present with you. And I can kind of figure it out as we go through and I'll figure out what we're doing. Play on May change when you're a teenager. Definitely will. You know, certain things will change, but know that I will be here and that you are the one that gets to decide. Make the decisions for your life. 

 

Aliyah [01:12:21] Yeah, that's a wonderful. 

 

Brian [01:12:24] Wonderful change. Does it create its own set of problems? Probably. We see no problem here. Probably not. 

 

Aliyah [01:12:29] Yeah. 

 

Brian [01:12:31] Not that they're happy when they're in their twenties. It'll be a whole different set of issues. But, you know, at least we're trying, right? 

 

Aliyah [01:12:37] Yeah. 

 

Brian [01:12:38] We're doing what we feel is best right now. 

 

Aliyah [01:12:41] Exactly. But I have had that thought, what is this going to look like when they're adults? Looking back at exactly what you said, what's the what are those therapy sessions going to look like? I don't know, but I don't know. We're doing our best. But fortunately. 

 

Brian [01:12:57] They'll be some therapy sessions, right? Because my parents would have never thought of going to see a therapist. 

 

Aliyah [01:13:03] Yeah. 

 

Brian [01:13:04] And yes, mental health was just dealt with now, you know. You know, that's where they lock you away in a hospital forever. It's like we all need to see a life coach. We all need to have a therapist. We all need to be talking about this stuff with someone who's trained to help. 

 

Aliyah [01:13:18] Yes. 

 

Brian [01:13:19] And unfortunately, it's not the bishop. The bishop doesn't have any training in any of this. And that's your sword. And there's some divine revelation that he's supposed to help out with. But really, all I need is someone just to sit here with me and tell me that it's going to be okay. Not that I need to go pray or pay tithing or. You know, those things might help. I don't know. I just need someone that'll be here for me. Someone who's trying to teach me how to tap. Right. And that's what I really need for me. That's what I needed, right? So that's awesome that there are those resources and I think it's great that you're sharing those with others on your Instagram channel. 

 

Aliyah [01:13:57] Thank you. Yeah. Thank you. 

 

Brian [01:14:02] So I also wanted to talk about random passions. You mentioned that one of your latest posts that you just get these random passions and you do this deep dove and you get into that. Tell me about some of those that we haven't already talked about, maybe some that you had for a while and you haven't even thought about for years or once you're just picking up now. It's like, so my latest interest, these are the next three, you know? 

 

Aliyah [01:14:26] Yeah, it's. I think it's good. And it's. I want to say it's bad and it's. I have a lot of cash and I have a lot of. Thing. Well, I should. When I think of a passion, I almost like that I devote so much time that I have a lot of things that I'm very interested in. A lot of things I like to learn about. And. Like. I have. Over. Over. In 2020 and COVID. I started like an earring business with my sister, and we made, like, these handmade polymer clay earrings. And it did really well. And. But then after a while, I kind of lost interest in that because I started learning about. I was like, Well, I kind of want to be a nurse. I think that would be really cool. And so I went to EMT school and I became an emergency medical technician. And I loved that. I loved just learning about. Like how to react in an emergency situation, how the body works, anatomy. I loved that. I also learned a lot about just being financially independent and financial freedom and. And my husband and I became debt free. And I love being I love being able to talk to other people and talk about their current budgets that they have and how they can like what they can do, how they can eliminate some of their debt and all those things. And it has it just it's constantly changing. I'm sure it's really confusing for all the people around me that they're like, wow, like, listen, you sound so passionate about that. Maybe that's what maybe that's what she's going to pursue like the rest of her life. That's just that's very not me. I'm very much. I'll learn something and I'll. I'll. I'll be excited about that and I'll learn something else like, well, that really interests me and I'll move on and I just, I keep jumping around. 

 

Brian [01:16:42] So what why do you think that's a bad thing for you to say? Well, that's what she's going to pursue the rest of her life. Why can I pursue it for the rest of this month or the rest of this week, even? What if? Why? Why does that. 

 

Aliyah [01:16:52] Seem like a bad thing? I think because I was. My dad is very. I have, like this. Like this one career. That's where that's where the money comes from. I stick with that. I grind it out. Even if I don't even if maybe I don't love it. That's still it's still stable. It's a stable thing. Right. And I was taught I was taught like I need to find a stable thing and I need to latch on to that. And stick with that. That's going to be how I support myself, how I how I'm not taking any major risks and that that's what I need to do. So. I feel like maybe I've just been kind of conditioned to believe that we all need to have one thing that we're really good at, and that's going to be like where all the money comes in from and. I don't know, I. It's probably just a lot of previous wiring and things I've been taught. Like I need to. I need to pick one thing that need to be stable in that and be really successful about one thing. And I can't jump around too much because I can't be a master at that one thing, you know? 

 

Brian [01:18:19] And I think there's some truth to that. My resumé, it looks awful. I'm over the place. I've been in entrepreneurial stuff. I've done stuff in education. And when you put it together, it's like, which direction is this person going? What do I want to hire them for? And yeah, so the resume is awful. It's not going to and it would be when they're looking for a vice president of or a CEO, they're looking for someone that has 15, 20 years experience of CEO accounting, smaller to larger companies and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. My resume, whenever I've hired someone. 

 

Aliyah [01:18:51] I've. 

 

Brian [01:18:51] Hired someone for their passion. You're moving to what you're excited about now. If I can get in an interview or I know somebody like that that's looking for a job. I can teach you the part of the job you need, but I can't teach you the passion. 

 

Aliyah [01:19:08] Yeah. 

 

Brian [01:19:09] So I'm hoping that that changes, because whenever I do job search, which is more frequent than I would like, the resume doesn't give me any more. But once I'm there, the passion will just make me knock it out of the park. So it's it's kind of a it's definitely a tradeoff. I can see the benefits of having a resume that says, I've done this line of work for 30 years. 

 

Aliyah [01:19:34] Okay. So many different jobs. Yeah, so many. 

 

Brian [01:19:38] And there is stability and probably more money to that. But as you've learned, how much money do you really need if you do it right? How much money do you need this year? Probably not as much. A lot less than a lot of people. Because your debt free. Right. You need money. Sure, everybody needs money. But if you're looking for stability, well, would you choose stability or would you choose happiness? And yeah, it's a little unstable and there's some rough reds, rough edges, but, you know, then your passion and you get to be happy. It's kind of a no brainer. So I don't want to discount what your what your father is saying because it's true. Yeah, but I think you also need to look at what what are you giving up for that stability and all that extra money. 

 

Aliyah [01:20:27] Yes, I agree, I. Maybe down the road I'll find something that. And I stick with that for a few years. But. The way my mind works, I was constantly wanting to learn. New things, and I'm interested in so many different things. And I sold I sold a I was in sales for a little bit. I sold my I was an insurance broker for a little. 

 

Brian [01:20:57] Okay. Let's let's change jobs job titles for a minute. Give me a job or something that you did for a while. That is just give you one and we'll go back and forth and see what we think. 

 

Aliyah [01:21:07] Okay. Well, I'll start with the insurance broker one. Okay, done that. 

 

Brian [01:21:12] So I coach hockey and lacrosse. I haven't been paid for either one, but I'll throw that out there. Done it for 25 years. But that's my last year. 

 

Aliyah [01:21:22] Okay. I work for a pest control company as a scheduler of their schedules. 

 

Brian [01:21:29] I made donuts. Oh, Winchell's donut house. Way, way, way, way back when there was a Winchell's. 

 

Aliyah [01:21:36] I have. Cleaning have been a housecleaner for a little bit. 

 

Brian [01:21:42] I worked in a printing press. Running a printing press for a while. 

 

Aliyah [01:21:47] Okay. I was a resident assistant. I was an aura. Okay. In college. 

 

Brian [01:21:51] I did marketing for a rec center. 

 

Aliyah [01:21:57] I did. I was a marketing specialist for, like, an agricultural company. Okay. 

 

Brian [01:22:06] I started the company with some friends about natural language processing. 

 

Aliyah [01:22:11] Oh. I've taught. 

 

Brian [01:22:20] I've taught before, but I'm not going to use that one. I'm I work finance for Disney World. 

 

Aliyah [01:22:30] That's really fun. 

 

Brian [01:22:32] It was funny. Other parts of it that were fun. I'm not there anymore for a reason, but. 

 

Aliyah [01:22:35] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh. I did a server at a. It was like a buffet style restaurant. Okay. 

 

Brian [01:22:47] Yeah. So I was a busboy at a restaurant when I was in college as well, so. 

 

Aliyah [01:22:51] Oh, my goodness. I'm trying to think of the other ones that I had. Oh, I was. I made sandwiches. Okay. That was my first job. 

 

Brian [01:22:59] I did a start up for United Airlines as a consultant. Which got me some travel benefits which we used up quite a bit. 

 

Aliyah [01:23:08] But yeah. 

 

Brian [01:23:09] In the year. 

 

Aliyah [01:23:10] My father in law, he travels a lot and he has a lot of. Through through United. Yes, but like the ultimate. What's that top level that you can be? Oh, it might like a million mile. Yes, a million usually. Yeah. Whoever the top. He has like the United Airlines. Something crazy like that first job. 

 

Brian [01:23:35] So I actually started a travel club that was geared towards travelers like him, where it was like an American Express black card that tied in all of the travel benefits with hotels and everything else. 

 

Aliyah [01:23:47] So is that still going on? 

 

Brian [01:23:50] It ran for about 12 years and I think they shut it down a while ago. See, I have an advantage here because I've been at this a lot longer than you, so I've got these random things. 

 

Aliyah [01:24:00] Well, because I know that he has like. With him. They gave him all these cool perks like hotels and everything, because he pretty much flies exclusively for United. So I'm just curious if, like, that program that you started is what he's like. 

 

Brian [01:24:15] It was called Amenity. Amenity II, but it's not around anymore. 

 

Aliyah [01:24:20] Oh, okay. That's really cool. I feel I can't think of any of the other. I know I've had. That's right. I that. 

 

Brian [01:24:31] That was fun. 

 

Aliyah [01:24:33] Yeah. Was that was kind of fun. Yeah. So my resumé is like how you said yours, is it. Yeah. No clear direction. 

 

Brian [01:24:42] I am looking for a job is is difficult and I am getting invited back for interviews can be difficult, especially as I'm supposed to have more seniority. When they're hiring people for senior position, they want them to have 20 years experience in that 15 years experience in that they don't want to know that, oh, I ran a printing press and actually started a nonprofit and a couple of other things like that that doesn't they don't know what to do with that. So it's so competitive when they're at the resume stage that that always gets thrown out. 

 

Aliyah [01:25:12] So yeah. 

 

Brian [01:25:15] But it's been it's been a fun ride because I've been involved in some great projects and I've been I've met some wonderful people and been passionate about my jobs for the most part. Some of them, I didn't like them. I'm not there anymore either. 

 

Aliyah [01:25:29] So it sounds like you have some really amazing experiences, cool projects you've worked on. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that's really amazing. 

 

Brian [01:25:40] So what what's your latest? Random passion. 

 

Aliyah [01:25:43] The latest random passion would be tapping. Okay, I'm hoping so, I. 

 

Brian [01:25:49] And you started off like. 

 

Aliyah [01:25:51] Yes, I did. And I'm going to get my master's certification. 

 

Brian [01:25:54] So you're like me. You don't just get in just a little bit and then fade out. It's like you get in and you certify at the highest level and you train trainers and you move on. Yeah. 

 

Aliyah [01:26:02] Yes. And then I move on. 

 

Brian [01:26:04] And then you. 

 

Aliyah [01:26:05] Move on to something else, which is great. Mm hmm. So I. So I'm getting my master's certification at the end of this month. I started off with the intention, like, I'm going to I'm going to do it on social media. Like, I want to share a lot of it on social media. But I don't love I don't really love the social selling thing, having to create reels all that. It's just not, yeah, I can do it, but it's, it's so I know that people can be really successful at it. I have a lot of friends that that's like their main source of income is influencing on social media. But I don't I don't want to do that. I want I'm actually reaching out to like multiple different studios out here. I want it to be more of like meeting in person with people because I've taught a lot of people over, over Zoom and like face time, all those things. But I want it to be more in person. So I want to do I want to teach at like different yoga studios or this community that I'm in. Like I'm part of a couple of different phase like Facebook groups for this area and I want to bring people together and have more group sessions in person together. So I started on social media is like, that's not my speed. Now I'm transitioning more to in-person and teaching it that way. So it's fun. 

 

Brian [01:27:33] Are you having. 

 

Aliyah [01:27:33] Fun? Yes. I like it alive. Really good. And then I'll start school starts back up in next month, so I'll start subbing again and then I'll just I'll just teach tapping as the opportunities come. I'm trying to be really careful with this because I don't want it to be. I enjoy it. I enjoy tapping. And I don't want it to become something where. I'm just trying to monetize it, monetize and monetize it. I just want it to be something that I just want to help. Share it with other people that are really looking for something. And that's how I want it to be. And yeah, if I get if it's just like a small source of income, that's okay. I just want it to be something that. It's more of a service to help people that are struggling. So I'm trying to be careful with how I go about it, if that makes sense. Yeah, yeah. 

 

Brian [01:28:26] Yeah. And be thoughtful. I mean, it's always good to be thoughtful about the way you approach it, right. Mhm. Know what works for you and what doesn't and. 

 

Aliyah [01:28:33] Yeah. 

 

Brian [01:28:33] What brings you joy. 

 

Aliyah [01:28:35] Yes. 

 

Brian [01:28:36] And allows you to share that. I think we've covered most of the things that I have. Do you have anything you want to talk about? So we didn't bring up something about something about aliya that we don't know. 

 

Aliyah [01:28:55] And. I. I feel like we've talked about a lot of the things that have been. A huge part of my life right now. We've covered that, and I. I share about this a little bit. On Instagram yesterday. But there's like all of this is still just like a small portion of my life, you know, deconstructing and. I share the reason why I share about leaving the church and what that process looks like is because I felt so alone when I was in the thick of it. I was scared and. I realize if I feel this way, other people must feel this way. Yeah. For that reason and not to get. To drag to drag this, to just drag the church in the dirt or anything like that. I just. I felt really alone because I was all in living. That was just. I was like, How do I even function? Like, how do people how do people function without having like all the answers that I thought I had? I thought I knew exactly what happened when. When we die. I thought I knew the purpose of this life and all these things. When really? Now I just think that we just need to be good humans and just love each other and. So the reason why basically what I'm saying is the reason why I, I share these things. It's not because I'm trying to paint the church in a bad light is because I want the people that are in the thick of it right now that are just maybe they're in a rabbit hole phase like I was, and they're just trying to suppress all the thoughts that, like I was. I'm losing. I'm losing the spirit. I am. Maybe. Maybe they're just trying to suppress all those thoughts right now, like I was doing. I want to be I want to be there for those people. I want to be. I want to be able to say, hey, look, it gets better. Yeah. And sometimes it's going to trigger people, you know, sometimes it's going to change. I have to be okay with that. But ultimately, I have to remember that. There are people that are in the thick of it right now and maybe their spouse. Isn't accepting of that. And they just need someone. I want to be there for them. So. I just wanted to say that whoever is listening, if you're feeling. Really scared right now. And. Like, there's no rush to do anything. You can just be in the present moment. It does get better. And you're still you. You're still a good person. Yeah. 

 

Brian [01:32:12] Yeah, that's a great message. Where did you start to find your your source of support? Initially, when you felt alone, it was kind of the first thing that you reached out to or found that made a difference for you. 

 

Aliyah [01:32:29] So Kevin was always really kind and supportive, but I didn't know how to talk about, like, my serious doubts without bringing down what he believed. So I would. Yes. That's so such a big thing. 

 

Brian [01:32:42] So many people leave the church and they have all these things and they're like, I'm really not trying to bring the church down. The last thing I want is to bring this discomfort on someone else who's not ready for it. 

 

Aliyah [01:32:52] Mm hmm. 

 

Brian [01:32:53] I don't want to publish a celeb grab as many people from the church as possible. If you're in the church and you're happy and it's working for you, great. I certainly don't want to have to upset that applecart. But I also need to talk about it. 

 

Aliyah [01:33:07] Yes. And also, I don't want you. It's like once once I learned all the information and I was like once I learned some information and I was still going to church. I couldn't unsee it, you know? Yeah. You can't unsee it. Like, I was like, okay, let's pretend I didn't read all those things about Joseph Smith. And I would go to church and I'm like, I can't. I can't. I just, yeah, I can't go back to like, there's no going back. 

 

Brian [01:33:39] And today's lesson in gospel doctrine is on Joseph Smith, and you're like, Oh, yeah, yeah. No, that's not. No. 

 

Aliyah [01:33:46] Mm hmm. Yeah. It's like, once you learn and learn and learn and you can't go back, you race those things that are now in your in your brain. I wanted to because I was like, wow, I've learned this. This is this has changed my life. And I didn't want I also didn't want to be that person for someone else. Right. Because that makes sense. I didn't want to be the person that just like. Like pulls the rug out from underneath you. And, you know, I, I don't want to be that source. So I was trying to figure out who I could talk to without. Dragging them down with me and putting them also in this whirlwind of what is life, you know? So one of my friends, well, we were like acquaintances in college. We lived in the same building. We always had kind of stayed friends on social media anyways. She shared that she got a tattoo and I knew that we were in the same ward, so I was like, okay, I know she's a member. She got a tattoo. She's more nuanced. So at least I realized. 

 

Brian [01:34:53] That's right. 

 

Aliyah [01:34:54] Yes, at least nuanced. So I just kind of put feelers out like. I like your tattoo. Right. And. And. She's like, thanks. And there's actually no like it. She felt like she had to defend her tattoo at first, like I was going to, like, critique her and be like, you know, we're told judge her. You're not supposed to. Yeah, but I was like, no, no, I would love to get one. And like, it was just, like, this whole. Like, Okay, we're we're both kind of on the same page. And then turned out we started just like I was just like, I'm having a hard time with the church and she's like, Oh my gosh, I am too. And we were actually like pretty much at the same point in our deconstruction process. That's where it was huge. So we were going like we kind of found each other at. The perfect time. So it was like we. So she was my person. Obviously there is Kevin like, yeah, but there's only so much I was like wanting to say. But for her, it was like we both could just talk, like, unfiltered. And in the beginning, we were both like, Is this bad? Like, are we? Cause that you're not supposed to discuss your doubts with other doubters, right? So it felt kind of like, Oh, is this wrong? Should we even be friends? You know? Yeah. But then we're like, No, this was too perfect. Why would this be wrong? Like, we're this were best worked out too perfectly that we're both in the same place. 

 

Brian [01:36:28] Is this also not an answer to the prayer that I've had? I mean, you're looking at those, but you've been trained that no, that can't be because you're talking about other things. And it's like, hmm, I need this. 

 

Aliyah [01:36:38] Yes. And so she was. Oh, my goodness. A huge. We still talk all the time. Like multiple times a week. And now it's not. We don't just talk about the church. In the beginning, it was like it was like all true. 

 

Brian [01:36:54] Have you have you found this? Did you hear this? Have you heard? 

 

Aliyah [01:36:57] Yeah. Like sending each other different. Different things to read, blah, blah, blah. And now it's not like that. Now it's like every once in a while we'll talk about the church. Now it's just life. Like, we both bought our homes at the same time, like within a week of each other. 

 

Brian [01:37:11] Wow, that's crazy. 

 

Aliyah [01:37:12] Crazy. Yeah, it was just Sheila in itself because she's all the way in Idaho. I'm all the way out here in California, but it feels like we've known each other, like, our whole lives. It was just. 

 

Brian [01:37:25] Well, now you've gone through this trauma together, so. Right. You've bonded even more. Right. Because there's this huge part of your life that now you've shared. 

 

Aliyah [01:37:34] Yes. And it's also what's really interesting is she actually is very Christian now. So she's very faithful in her the nondenominational church that she goes to. She was actually baptized in the non-denominational church. So re baptized in that church. And I just think that's really cool because she found her piece like you can still there are people that are still Christian who leave the church, you know? Yeah. 

 

Brian [01:38:02] And so let me get this straight. You can actually have different values and different beliefs and still be friends. How is that possible? Right. 

 

Aliyah [01:38:11] Yeah, exactly. Because we were we let like we were right there with each other. I see. I see how this church has been, like a blessing for her. Like it's brought her family this peace and happiness. So I'm like, go do it. Like, Yeah, right. 

 

Brian [01:38:30] I want her to be happy. 

 

Aliyah [01:38:32] Yeah. And for me, she's like, hey, like, you're doing it. You're doing great things like you do. You know, we still have this awesome relationship. She doesn't try to preach to me or. No, it's not like that at all. And. Yeah. So I think I also thought that people who live like they just don't have God anymore. But that's not true because she's a perfect example of that. So yeah. 

 

Brian [01:39:01] I found that interesting too, because for me, I think you and I are kind of in the more of the same place. It's like, I don't know what I think about all of this anymore. And I initially thought it was kind of strange that someone would leave one Christian religion and then say, Oh, well, I'm going to jump onto this other Christian religion. And I'm like, okay, that's I don't think I can do that from some of the other experiences that I've had in the thoughts that I've had. That's not for me now. Maybe it will be. I don't. 

 

Aliyah [01:39:32] Know. Yeah, and I'm at a point now because I get that question like, don't you don't you want to find something? I'm like, I don't. For so long, like I was taught. That life was supposed to look a certain way. And now that I'm not living it that way and I feel peace, I'm just relishing in that. I don't really. Maybe a god exists. Maybe I'm supposed to follow these. Maybe I'm supposed to follow the example of Jesus. Maybe, like, maybe there's all these things. But I don't feel any pressure to know right now. I honestly don't really care to know. I don't. And I'm not trying to say it in, like, a cold way. It's more just like I. I don't feel the need and I feel like I'm still a good human and I don't feel like I'm being misled. I just listen to me and I don't I don't need an outside source right now, and I kind of like that. Yeah. Yeah, I. 

 

Brian [01:40:28] Kind of feel like that. Same way with the timeline. It's like I'm going to take my time figuring this out. I am not in a rush to go latch on to something else. I want to consider even some of the things that I took with me from the LDS Church and understand that a little bit better. I want to explore a little bit more about other teachings and see if those make sense. But I'm not in a hurry. 

 

Aliyah [01:40:51] You know. 

 

Brian [01:40:52] So so nothing that you brought up. I have to ask you about your tattoo. You not only did you get a tattoo, you put it where everyone can see it. 

 

Aliyah [01:41:01] Oh, yeah. 

 

Brian [01:41:02] Right. Yes. You put it right. There is not it's not hidden or whatever. Tell me about what what it is and why you got it and what it means to you. And I love the stories that are behind those. I love, if you don't mind. 

 

Aliyah [01:41:13] Yeah. So it's a daisy. It's just my it's my daughter's birth month flower. Okay. And I got it in Utah. Oh, and I got it with my friend. We both went together to go get them. 

 

Brian [01:41:30] You got matching ones? 

 

Aliyah [01:41:32] No, she got her own, but we both went and got tattooed. 

 

Brian [01:41:35] At the same time. 

 

Aliyah [01:41:36] Together at the same time. And it just ultimately, for me, it was it was a reminder of my daughter. But also it was just it was. Very much. Something that I wanted to do is like I I'm taking my body back. For so long, I was told my body is not moving. Like, I'm just. I'm just renting this for a little bit. And I just did a lot of messed up stuff with my brain. A lot of. Things that I'm still working through. Like if I wear a tank top now. I still I'm like, is this modest? I like being too revealing and I hate that I have to think like that because anyone else who didn't grow up with that teaching, they just where would they want to where would they feel confident? And I can't I still can't do that. And so getting this tattoo is a waiver of me saying, look, this body is mine. I'm tired of saying that I belong. Like I belong to someone else. I'm me, I belong to me. And it was just kind of like taking back my body and. It was really good. It was really good experience. Yeah. Good. There's a lot of there's a lot of people that kind of make fun of ex-Mormon like they like that get tattoos, like, oh, they're just like, they're just trying to test out the waters. But really, I feel like I've kind of had this conversation with a lot of. People who have left is. This is like our way of taking back our body. Yeah. And. Because first of all, because we're still trying to work through this modesty complex and being told that, like my actions are what trigger men and and. 

 

Brian [01:43:28] You're responsible for that and you are. 

 

Aliyah [01:43:30] Yeah. 

 

Brian [01:43:31] For that. Right. 

 

Aliyah [01:43:32] Yes. And I'm responsible for that. And I'm tired of that thinking. And so this was my way of. Reclaiming my body back, and I'm, like, plotting more. I want to get more. And. But I. Yeah. So there's no one's really asked me that before other than my friends about talking about it. 

 

Brian [01:43:58] Yeah, it can be pretty cathartic, right? You're reclaiming territory. That should have always been yours. But it wasn't. Mhm. And, and yeah I think it's a beautiful thing. I think it's awesome. I love that you feel confident and free enough of that to be able to say, yeah, it's the thing that I did and I'm. That's awesome. 

 

Aliyah [01:44:15] It's great my still working through. The the talks toxic teachings. Yes. I'm still like when I put on my clothes every day and when I'm making the choice not to wear garments or whatever it is. Right. I it's. I it's like I have to constantly tell myself I'm okay. I'm not going it God. Like, there's not a God that's going to punish me. I'm not going to get in a car accident today. Right. You know what? I had those thoughts I had. When I started at the very beginning, my garments were the last thing. Sorry. This is I to touch you. 

 

Brian [01:45:00] No, no. This is not right. No. 

 

Aliyah [01:45:03] My garments were the last thing. In the process of leaving because I was so scared. It was like I didn't believe anymore, but I was still wearing my garments because I'm like, well, if there is a god, what if this what if these garments really are like my protection? And if he I was genuinely scared that I was not going to be protected anymore. And my husband, who was still in the church at that time when I was deciding to take my garments off, he was the one who was saying, you realize that's fear based, right? Yes. Like the reason you're feeling that way is because you were taught. To fear God in that way that God is. That's that's he said this is an example of the type of God that you believe in and the type of God that you were like, Oh, I don't believe in God like that. Yeah. I mean, I just know it's very different. But at that time I was like, I don't believe in God. Well. 

 

Brian [01:46:11] You say it's very different, but you say you're also still getting dressed considering everything you put on. And I apologize. I feel like I kind of made you a little self-conscious when I brought up your tattoo. Yeah. Oh, no, no. Okay, good. I didn't want to do it. Okay, but yeah, that's still there. Right? So we just changed, like, the drawers in our kitchen, like, six months ago. I'm still reaching in the wrong drawer for the silverware. Right. Are there parts about that in the church that are going to wear on forever? It's like first for seven months now, the spoons have not been in that drawer. And yet my instinct is to still go to that drawer. That's just silverware. What about values and beliefs and traditions and all of the stories and everything else? It's going to take a minute. Right. So I love the idea of the tattoo to just remind yourself constantly. It's like, this is me. This belongs to me. I get bad looks from wearing the bracelet and and I'm like, what am I? I'm not attacking anybody. I'm just supporting you people that I think might might be able to use it. 

 

Aliyah [01:47:19] Yeah. Do I think that they're getting better about talking about people who have left? They are recently trying to say just love people, but they also call people who leave decommissioned temples. That's a thing. 

 

Brian [01:47:35] Right. So we get you either way. 

 

Aliyah [01:47:37] Yeah. 

 

Brian [01:47:38] And someone was just telling me that they're also I just had another conversation a couple of weeks ago. And her big concern is the way she's heard church leaders speaking to members about you might feel more comfortable not inviting former members to certain family gatherings. 

 

Aliyah [01:48:00] Wow. 

 

Brian [01:48:01] And I don't know if those family gatherings include baptisms or temple ceilings or things that they would come as a participant or as a non participant. Or if they're talking Christmas, don't invite your kids home for Christmas because they might. And she said that was one of her biggest fears is because she knows that her family members that are still in the church, they're listening to this idiot tell them to stop inviting. 

 

Aliyah [01:48:29] Me. 

 

Brian [01:48:30] For family gatherings and my family will listen to them more than they will think of me. 

 

Aliyah [01:48:38] I'd say that's really sad. It is scary and scary. 

 

Brian [01:48:44] So are they getting better? I don't know. Are there some quotes that might be considered better? Are there some leaders that are there others that are might be worse, probably. I don't. So I guess without answering the question, you kind of answered the question. 

 

Aliyah [01:49:00] Yeah, I see. I, I've done this before because I in the beginning I was like, well, why do people say that the church is? Because a lot of people say that the church is. 

 

Brian [01:49:09] Right. And were you in it? Were you ever even considered? It's like, no, it's not like. 

 

Aliyah [01:49:13] In the beginning. 

 

Brian [01:49:14] But then when you were still in the church, right? 

 

Aliyah [01:49:16] It's like, yeah, I was like, why would people say something like that? But then now I research it on like. Oh, I. Wow. You know, I. Yeah. 

 

Brian [01:49:27] Polarizing. 

 

Aliyah [01:49:28] If you look at perceptions are going to be different because if you're in it, you're not. You're probably like, no, all those things. We don't match up with those things. You know, that I'm out and like it. It does match all those things. 

 

Brian [01:49:41] And once you see it, you can't not see it. 

 

Aliyah [01:49:43] You can't unsee it. Yeah. But I also I've also had other friends from other religions who say it's just kind of like an organized religion thing. But I don't know. I don't know about that because I, I haven't been to those other like and I only know what I know in the LDS Church. But. I know, I. I see that it lines up with that. 

 

Brian [01:50:13] But I was just glancing through those ten statements as well, thinking about the Catholic Church. And I'm thinking I think they check all those ten boxes, too. So it could be an organized religion thing that says, hey, here's something. If you if it's any organized religion, here are ten questions that will make them all look like. 

 

Aliyah [01:50:30] It's interesting, though, because I do have. Like there are people that are in it and it truly brings so much happiness and peace there. And I, I see that. And so I'm like, you should stay. If that's what be should stay. But I also see the dangerous teachings as well. And it's really hard to stay silent about it sometimes. Yeah. Yeah. 

 

Brian [01:51:00] And I see the people that it's hurting. 

 

Aliyah [01:51:03] To. 

 

Brian [01:51:04] That I mean, just truly hurting. And I'm just like that's. That's not right. That's the part that bothers me. It was more than the doctrine. I mean, it was a long time before I even read the CBS letter, because for me, that's not what it was about. It wasn't about, oh, here's a doctrine that's clearly identified that the church never talks about. There are so many church teachings like that that it's like we were never taught this in any of the church. I mean, I was in the church for a long time and taught gospel doctrine was in Bishop Bricks and everything else, and this was never mentioned. And so you don't just accidentally overlook all of this data that is so damning to the church and say, well, yeah, we pretty much told you everything you need to know. There's a lot you didn't tell us, and it seems like some of it we should have been more aware of. Yeah, but. 

 

Aliyah [01:51:59] So. Yeah. 

 

Brian [01:52:00] Yeah, go ahead. 

 

Aliyah [01:52:03] So I served my mission on Temple Square and. It was. I look back and I think there's a lot of information I. I was so blind to. People have ask me questions about Joseph Smith. And I'd be like, no, like he doesn't. That's not what he did. 

 

Brian [01:52:23] He didn't marry the 18 year old. 

 

Aliyah [01:52:26] Yeah, I was. And I would just laugh those things off. And but I never really dove into it like, wow, is that actually true? It sounded so crazy. But I was like, there's no way that can be true. So I didn't even acknowledge it. But anyways. There is like this little. What's that display? And it shows Joseph Smith pretending to translate the plates. And for the longest time, I thought him translating the plates looked a certain way. 

 

Brian [01:53:03] Yes. And we've been told that it was that way. And it's in all the lessons and all the pitchers are that way. 

 

Aliyah [01:53:09] There's a picture. 

 

Brian [01:53:11] There's not even a hat involved in any of it. 

 

Aliyah [01:53:14] Mm hmm. And then. So all this time, I'm, like, teaching this, like, there's people coming. I'm, like, teaching it. This is what he did. Wow. You know? Yeah. And then after it was like shortly after I got back from my mission, the church is like, well, here are these serious stones. And these are these are actually how he translated. And he looked at these stones in a hat, and it was almost like, yeah, we've always it was almost gaslighting. 

 

Brian [01:53:42] Like it not almost. 

 

Aliyah [01:53:45] It was gaslighting. Yes. But it didn't faze me. At that time, when I got back from my mission, I was so developed, so in it, but I was like, Oh, well, yeah. I mean, of course, like that makes sense. They're just what words? That phrase that they use. Milk before me. Is that what they say? They're just like, they can't give us all the information. They're protecting you. Yeah, but. And I was so okay with it. But now I look back and like, why? No, the only reason they did they shared those stones was because the church was coming under fire because of that South Park episode where they reveal what happened. You know, it's just so interesting. 

 

Brian [01:54:34] I have a cousin and so who's not a member of the church, but her mother was from Murray and grew up in Murray and they were all raised in New Jersey. And I just spent time with them all this last weekend and she's like, The only thing I ever really knew about the Mormon Church came from South Park. And she said, I'm like, They're just making all that stuff up. 

 

Aliyah [01:54:55] Like, but they're not. 

 

Brian [01:54:57] Yeah, they weren't, though. 

 

Aliyah [01:55:01] So, like, I thought I didn't know that Joseph Smith was a polygamist. I didn't know that. Right. And it's not that the church didn't ever say that he's not a polygamist. They just really emphasized his religion. Well, maybe they did say that he was never. I don't know. I know. 

 

Brian [01:55:18] But it's it's sins of omission. Right. And, yeah, it's like. Well, you purposely didn't include that information. 

 

Aliyah [01:55:25] Mm hmm. Yeah. And they just stressed how devout he was to to Emma and how awesome their relationship was. And then I learned more about their. 

 

Brian [01:55:37] Relationship and how much she loved him. 

 

Aliyah [01:55:39] Yeah. Yeah. Like they were west. Mm. I know all this stuff that I'm like, why didn't they have more questions? 

 

Brian [01:55:51] Like, what's number? Let's see, where was that? Zero tolerance for criticism or questions. Number two on the list. 

 

Aliyah [01:56:00] Mm. 

 

Brian [01:56:05] Okay. So. All kinds of anti-Mormon shows, history, Mormon shows that are out now there four or five at the last count that I that I wherever that are all like out right now. Have you seen any of them? What have been your reactions that you want to see the others avoided yet you have watch burnings with your friends? We do on one of them. We have watched with our friends that left the church as well. And we. 

 

Aliyah [01:56:34] Were. 

 

Brian [01:56:36] Watching this, going through this together, like, okay. 

 

Aliyah [01:56:39] Which one is it? 

 

Brian [01:56:42] We haven't finished it yet, but under the banner. Yeah. 

 

Aliyah [01:56:45] Yeah. 

 

Brian [01:56:46] That's our one. 

 

Aliyah [01:56:47] Yeah. Yes. So we. So I have watched like all of them ones that have been out. 

 

Brian [01:56:56] But all of that series or all of all of the series, the Mormon no more. 

 

Aliyah [01:57:00] And yeah, I watched all of Mormon no more. I watched all of Under the banner of heaven, all of sweet praying. Obey, yeah. And. There's another one. Yeah, there is. Oh, I can't remember, but I've watched them. 

 

Brian [01:57:18] Okay. 

 

Aliyah [01:57:18] And my favorite is Mormon No More The Show. And I really liked that. I just felt really real and. It's following real people that actually experience being all in in the church and then leaving and falling in love. It was just it was so good under the banner of heaven. One I. I like it. I really like watching. What's his name then? 

 

Brian [01:57:54] Oh. The main actor. 

 

Aliyah [01:57:56] Yeah. 

 

Brian [01:57:57] Yeah. He did a really good job. 

 

Aliyah [01:58:01] I'm just trying to remember what his screen name is. So they were happy. 

 

Brian [01:58:09] Now I'm looking at my IMDB. The actor's name or his? 

 

Aliyah [01:58:16] His screen name. Like his. Under the banner seven. 

 

Brian [01:58:24] Jeb Pyre. 

 

Aliyah [01:58:26] Peri, peri. 

 

Brian [01:58:27] Peri, peri. 

 

Aliyah [01:58:28] Peri. Yes. So I really like watching his I know he's not a real like. He's made him up. Yeah. Yeah. But I really love watching his deconstruction. And, like, you visit, like you are watching is cognitive. Like this. Taking in all this information that he's learning about the church that he loves and. It was I did not love and and I don't want to give a spoiler. I didn't really love. Now he decides to move on with the cognitive dissonance. Okay. 

 

Brian [01:59:04] Because I feel real. Or you just didn't like it or. 

 

Aliyah [01:59:08] It felt like he was just felt like he's just like, well, I guess I just have to suppress it and make everyone else happy. Why? You know, it just felt like he was like, all right, well, I have all these questions, but. That's just life. And, like, I don't know, there was just no. He didn't make, like a move. Yeah. 

 

Brian [01:59:32] Well making no moves. 

 

Aliyah [01:59:33] Like that in Adelaide. He's just and maybe that's, maybe that's a beauty in it is like it's just sometimes deconstruction just looks that way like you're just, you have all these questions and you're just figuring out what the next step is and that's kind of where it ended. And I just wanted more because I just wanted more, but. Yeah, I did feel like it was a little bit. There were some things that they exaggerated, like some actual historical things that happened that they exaggerated or just like, um, story is not really based in truth but like had like vague and undertones of truth to it. But it was a good show. It was good. They were good things. It was a good stuff, I think. 

 

Brian [02:00:24] Were there any triggers that that hit you like? Or anything that you learned from it that you didn't know about before or hadn't considered? 

 

Aliyah [02:00:33] Oh, man, a huge trigger. Was the wives in it. How they were just so, so willing to do whatever the heck their husband said, even if they didn't agree because the husband was the one who had all the answers. He's the one who actually actually covenanted to God I covenanted to my husband. And I just. And that drove me insane because that is not like I just I don't understand that. I never understood. 

 

Brian [02:01:06] That. That bother you when you were going through the temple, though? 

 

Aliyah [02:01:10] Yes, it. 

 

Brian [02:01:10] Did. It bothered you like the very first time or what? Eventually you just caught up when you finally came out of the initial shock. You're like, okay, what was that again? What were we doing. 

 

Aliyah [02:01:19] The very first time? I was. The very first time I went through, I was just kind of like, I don't. I felt really unsettled. Really? It's a very new. 

 

Brian [02:01:30] Word to use, I think. 

 

Aliyah [02:01:31] I dunno. Yeah, but I. But also at the same time I saw how everyone around me was feeling and so I was like, okay, I just must be feeling this. I must be not understanding it correctly. 

 

Brian [02:01:44] They're all okay with it. Mhm. And I've heard all the stories that everybody loves being here and that this is wonderful and it's like and I'm, I'm not getting that vibe right now. That's not, this is not the spirit that I'm feeling. This is a run for the exit. Feeling that. 

 

Aliyah [02:01:58] Yeah. And I. I had to. So. A lot of times what I kept telling myself was. This is really deep stuff. Like this is really deep doctrinal things that are not worldly. And I. Don't fully comprehend them. I'm not supposed to comprehend all of it at once, so I must just have to come back here a lot to fully get it because I was like, This is really deep stuff. How how lucky am I that I even get to hear these things and learn these things? Yes, I feel unsettled, but there has to be a reason for it, right? There has to be. And I was just trying so hard to. To make it okay in my mind when really I look back and it like I was really. Just trying to make everyone happy around me. Yeah. Mm hmm. I was really just trying because. I didn't want to rock the boat. 

 

Brian [02:03:19] Well, no. And it's a big day and it's wonderful. And you're surrounded by ward members and family and friends and all of you and support you. And you're sitting there going. What in the world. 

 

Aliyah [02:03:29] Is going on? 

 

Brian [02:03:31] It's got to be you, right? 

 

Aliyah [02:03:34] Yeah, I said I. There are so many times, but I thought I was just I'm just crazy or I'm thinking about this the wrong I'm not worthy enough. So that's why you know. 

 

Brian [02:03:47] That's such a trigger for me. When people feel like they're not worthy for something, that is actually a sign that there's definitely something wrong here. But we've been trained to say, Well, it's because you're not worthy and one day you'll understand. 

 

Aliyah [02:04:01] And the artist. That's a big. There are more things that I'm trying to rewire my brain. Yeah. 

 

Brian [02:04:10] Yeah, I'm still going. I still get triggered by temple clothing outside of the temple. 

 

Aliyah [02:04:16] It's just. 

 

Brian [02:04:17] It's just a weird thing on TV shows, and it's just like. 

 

Aliyah [02:04:21] And I also have a hard time with that because I know, like, my parents that it's really special to them. Yeah. Yeah. Like, it's really. It's really special to them. And so I so sometimes it does make me sad when I. See someone maybe making fun of the tumble clothes and wearing them in light in a way that's not in line with what the church teaches. And it makes me sad because I'm like, well, that's that's not cool, because that's kind of disrespecting what my what my family believes. But I also have to realize, like, those people are deconstructing in their way. Yeah. And yeah, it's just really hard. 

 

Brian [02:05:08] Yeah. And I think there's still like, one of the things that all post-Mormon have in common is that they all used to be Mormons, so they can remember what they would have felt like if someone had done that while they were still in the church. If this show had come out while you were still attending the temple. It would have been it would have been concerning. It would've been a huge, huge concern, huge issue. And it wouldn't have felt great. 

 

Aliyah [02:05:33] So I know I listen to my I listen to myself and I, I know if I was listening to myself like ten years ago, I would be like, who is this? The past? Like this. This girl is off the deep end like she is. She's in a dark place. Like, how could she even talk about the church like that? And it's. And it's just so interesting, like how I think about myself like ten years ago versus now and I don't know. 

 

Brian [02:06:08] And I've asked like, what would you go back and say to that person ten years ago? But I think about it and it's like, honestly, that person wouldn't have heard anything. No, that I would have said anyway. They would have all thought, No, this person has lost it. I feel bad for them. I hope they find peace. I hope they find their way. 

 

Aliyah [02:06:30] Yeah. Yeah. I wouldn't have heard what I had to say. 

 

Brian [02:06:34] No, no. And like you said, even when you were on your mission, you even heard some of it, and you're like, I can't. No, that's not a thing. 

 

Aliyah [02:06:42] I thought that maybe I was singing because those people were coming into my life like and like. Like if I would have heard myself and like listening to myself talking. That's really hard to explain. So if ten years ago me was listening to myself now and I listen to this full podcast, I would probably feel so guilty at the end that I would have prayed like, I'm so sorry I allowed myself to listen to that. Right. Does that make sense? Yeah. Like, I would have felt really guilty. Like, wow. I just. I like I like Satan. He's working on me and like all these things because I allowed myself to listen to someone talk about the church like that. 

 

Brian [02:07:28] Because that programing just runs so deep. 

 

Aliyah [02:07:30] Mhm. Right. Yeah, that's yeah. 

 

Brian [02:07:35] But if you are listening to this ten year old ten years ago me just keep an open mind and just love your neighbor and you listen to yourself. 

 

Aliyah [02:07:45] Yes. Ask the questions. Yeah. 

 

Brian [02:07:49] Ask the questions. 

 

Aliyah [02:07:52] Okay. 

 

Brian [02:07:57] Okay. Do you have anything else you want to talk about or. Any other topics. 

 

Aliyah [02:08:04] I don't think so. This one's different from the other. I've been on a podcast with someone else who has also left the church. It's usually with someone who's still in the church. 

 

Brian [02:08:16] Oh, really? 

 

Aliyah [02:08:17] Yeah, that. It's someone who is still in the church and we still have a great relationship. Right. And so we find like we find more. Like the comedy? Sure. 

 

Brian [02:08:30] And there's a lot. 

 

Aliyah [02:08:30] But I think it's good. Yeah. And that's still there. It's just. It's nice being able to talk with someone. Where you. Like, you understand, having to work through the aftermath of leaving the things that go on in our brains that really no one else really understands unless you've left. The LDS Church like those specific things that we. The conscious decisions you make every day and. The actual questions that we had and the actual answers that we received. And studied out. I have. There's not very many people I can talk to about. Just the things I've learned about the church that. Yeah. There's just there's few people I can talk to about this stuff that I learned about the church. So it's really nice to just be able to talk to you about it and just like, talk about the real raw stuff that. All those things that I don't get to have. I just don't get these conversations often. So it's nice. Yeah. Well. 

 

Brian [02:09:49] Thank you for sharing your time and for being so open and vulnerable. And I think you're a wonderful person. I look forward to your Instagram. I think you bring a lot of light and positivity to everything you do. 

 

Aliyah [02:10:02] Thank you. 

 

Brian [02:10:05] Thank you for listening to strangers. You know, if you're enjoying our conversations, please share us with a friend. And by sharing and liking on Facebook and social media, or for exclusive content and detailed show notes, visit our website at Strangers, You Know, Podcast XCOM, where you can subscribe to our newsletter or make a donation to support the show. Thank you for your support.